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| Thread: Faction Discussion — Sylvan! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 02, 2025 08:21 AM |
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Oh also. I would really not want to see a watery centaur, that's just forced. Either a mythologically accurate one or none at all.
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Etharil
Shaper of Lore
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posted April 02, 2025 05:49 PM |
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted April 02, 2025 07:46 PM |
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Vatawna's specialization seems kind of insane. Just a free +25% mana with +5% every 2 levels?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 03, 2025 01:45 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 01:51, 03 Apr 2025.
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ANcientDRuids said:
Stevie said:
I thought about Kelpies but they are notoriously evil
As are Gremlins and fairytale creatures in general?
MattII said:
I would point out that the dragon in western myth is almost always evil as well, but still appeared in previous iterations of this faction.
Well, looking at it that way... I guess? It's a fair point, I'll agree to that.
ANcientDRuids said:
Stevie said:
Birdmen are about as mythical as the iriyad and the water pokemon.
I disagree. Besides, being in a M&M bestiary scores them more points in my book than being mythical.
Then we can't find common ground here. I couldn't care less about generic units even if they were part of M&M's compendium of creatures. Mythical for me. Don't want to tolerate low effort lineups because that's what we'll get.
ANcientDRuids said:
Stevie said:
And you put this in between the taloned druids and the phoenix and the faction starts leaning too heavily into the birb-theme.
Didn't notice talons on druids, yeahhhh... I'd get rid of that. They should be as Troll-like as possible, the native population of Murmurwoods. But on the other hand, Iryads refer to Slavic Wyraj, a paradise-like dimension mostly populated by beautiful and colourful birbs. Rampart was dominated by horses, HOE's Sylvan leaning more into the birb theme? Why not.
Agree about the druid.
Iriyad is Unfrozen's invention. Them claiming it's derived from Slavic myth is a fancy way of saying they made it up.
The birb theme is apparent because that's what this faction tries to be, a Slavic-inspired "Sylvan". Birds carry souls between Wyraj and Earth in a cycle of death and reincarnation. Unfrozen adds another spin to that saying the souls are attuned to the elements and take their form. Faction is basically birds like Eith and his tribe, druids with claws, phoenixes, and spirits morphing into elementals, and I don't see the Sylvan in that.
Agree about the harpies in the next quote after this.
ANcientDRuids said:
Stevie said:
So I like the Kelpie as a creature related to the water element, just not if we think of this faction as "Sylvan", but rather as an elemental faction like Conflux or some other name. And I don't like the birdmen in either case.
In my mind Sylvan is enough of an umbrella term to house Sorceress/Rampart themes and the Preserve ones (if Elementals could fit there, then they should also fit in Sylvan). Actually one of the good things that Ashan introduced.
It's not an all-encompassing term like that to me. Also, Ashan didn't introduce Sylvan with elementals, it's HOE that wants to. And if you think Sylvan means Preserve, then H4 was the first to do it.
ANcientDRuids said:
Alternative names I thought up would be: Arborea, Mycelian, even ol' Grove. None of them are as universal thought.
Amazing, let's go with those. Even something from Slavic paganism will do.
MattII said:
Stevie said:
Birdmen are about as mythical as the iriyad and the water pokemon.
Except that they're very definitely mythical, per the Tengu of Japanese myth, which is occasiomally pictured with a bird's head, as well as Leigong/Leishen of Chinese myth with the same.
Birdmen doesn't mean tengu, or leigong, or garuda, or harpies necessarily. It means something as simple as anthropomorphized birds or humanoids with birdlike features. Not all birdmen are harpies, but all harpies are birdmen, so to say. Which means you have it backwards and my statement is correct. Also, with a look at Eith, what is he even? A tengu? A harpy? No, just a plain birdman according to the text. So with no mythical support to his case, we can't say that he's more than a generic anthropomorphic creature. And who cares about that.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 03, 2025 02:21 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 02:32, 03 Apr 2025.
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Stevie said:
MattII said:
Stevie said:
Birdmen are about as mythical as the iriyad and the water pokemon.
Except that they're very definitely mythical, per the Tengu of Japanese myth, which is occasiomally pictured with a bird's head, as well as Leigong/Leishen of Chinese myth with the same.
Birdmen doesn't mean tengu, or leigong, or garuda, or harpies necessarily. It means something as simple as anthropomorphized birds or humanoids with birdlike features. Not all birdmen are harpies, but all harpies are birdmen, so to say. Which means you have it backwards and my statement is correct. Also, with a look at Eith, what is he even? A tengu? A harpy? No, just a plain birdman according to the text. So with no mythical support to his case, we can't say that he's more than a generic anthropomorphic creature. And who cares about that.
Mm, the fact that the term includes the name 'men' indicates, to me at least, that there has to be at least one thing about it that is physically human, be it the head, upper body, arms, whatever. A normal-looking bird that can speak just isn't going to cut it.
But you know, that one of the good things about mythology, if you look hard enough you can find a creature looking like just about anything, even if it's in the myth of some long-dead barely-more-than-a-small-town-sized culture in the middle of Siberia, or southern Peru or wherever.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 03, 2025 06:45 AM |
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Edited by Ghost at 06:46, 03 Apr 2025.
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I'm just adding.. What I know birdmen are from the US.. And Russian mythology tells/says human-headed bird.. It after I checked my mythological creatures dictionary fast and short, I've found correct word Mothman, and we used birdman.. Ok Alkonost is from Russia or Slavic countries.. An example is enough.. Ok 
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 04, 2025 07:02 PM |
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted April 04, 2025 09:44 PM |
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Octavia is a little weird, but it's not weirder than, say, Verdish randomly becoming a Knight in H4 after being a Witch in H3. I think Octavia fits pretty well with this version of Sylvan, although I think 2 fire themed heroes is more than enough and I hope there aren't more.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2025 10:38 PM |
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Honestly, what doesn’t fit this version of “Slyvan” at this point? Perhaps next time we’ll get a naga hero to continue this trend of each hero having no connection to the others.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 04, 2025 11:15 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 23:16, 04 Apr 2025.
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Ah, the Sylvan faction —a sacred grove where the mere flicker of a flame is akin to summoning an inferno. The introduction of fire-themed heroes? Blasphemy! What's next, necromancers tending rose gardens?
But let's not let our torches of indignation set the forest ablaze just yet. A stroll down memory lane reveals that our beloved woodland realms have always been more diverse than a druid's herb garden:
Heroes II Sorceress Faction: A harmonious assembly of sprites, dwarves, elves, druids, unicorns, and —wait for it— phoenixes. Yes, phoenixes, those fiery birds of rebirth, comfortably nested among the foliage. Apparently, back then, a little combustion was just part of the charm.
Heroes III Rampart: A lineup featuring dendroid guards (because nothing says "keep off the grass" like animated trees) and gold dragons. Dragons, mind you, not exactly known for their vegan diets or tree-hugging tendencies. Yet, they were embraced without much ado, adored even.
Heroes IV Preserve: An eclectic mix including elves, white tigers, faerie dragons, and —surprise— phoenixes again! It seems our ancestors had a penchant for setting the underbrush alight in the name of diversity.
Heroes V Sylvan: Featuring blade dancers, hunters, druids, unicorns, and treants. While lacking overt fiery elements, the presence of druids channeling nature's wrath suggests an acceptance of more volatile forces. Also often heavily criticized for being too elven-focused (race vs theme), but we conveniently forget that when it fits our agenda, right?
And let’s not forget: Phoenixes don’t burn forests —they renew them. After all, who needs slow, natural growth when you can just set everything on fire and let the Phoenix handle the "rebirth" part?
Given this rich tapestry of recruits, is the inclusion of a fire-themed hero truly the cataclysm some proclaim? Perhaps it's time to embrace the flames of change rather than douse them with the waters of nostalgia. After all, a forest without occasional fire risks stagnation —and nobody wants a moldy Sylvan, do they?
So, let's sheathe our indignation and consider that, maybe, just maybe, a spark of innovation won't reduce our cherished faction to ashes. Instead, it might just illuminate new paths through the woods we've wandered for decades.
May your treants remain ever flammable —metaphorically speaking, of course.
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ANcientDRuids
Famous Hero
(Andruids for short)
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posted April 04, 2025 11:57 PM |
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@Galaad I think we've established that this is not Sylvan, nor Sorceress Town, nor Rampart, nor Preserve* - it's Conflux (and also a bunch of other things shoehorned in) wearing Sylvan skin name. And in this chaotic mix, a Fire Elemental hero is one thing. Efreet is another. But what's next? Gogs (just another prancing, zany-to-the-max critter that meshes just well with autumn ambiance), maybe Cerberi (so cute! fiery puppos! we've already got a cat, why not throw a bone to the dog lovers) or heck, even literal Demons (who even cares anymore? let's subvert them to be primordial forces of nature - kin to the goat-footed Fauns)? What's the point of advertising that they consult M&M lore experts if we end up with jarring stuff like that.
(*Preserve so far would be the closest to the philosophy of HOE's version of the town - Elves, Faeries, wild animals, magical hybrids, plants, Elementals - the full package of everything that ever appeared. Bugs too.)
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted April 05, 2025 12:27 AM |
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Efreeti are fire elementals in MM canon. Genies are air elementals.
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ANcientDRuids
Famous Hero
(Andruids for short)
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posted April 05, 2025 12:39 AM |
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No, they aren't. Elementals are beings of pure elemental essence. One can easily assume they take different forms and shapes, but there are also distinct creatures that live in the elemental planes AND aren't Elementals sensu stricto - like genies, thunder birds, ravenmen, sentient boulders, efreeti, and even the humble gog.
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted April 05, 2025 12:59 AM |
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Alright. They're creatures summoned from the elemental planes that channel their element but are not technically elementals. Point stands, it's still in theme for efreeti to be allied with an elemental faction.
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted April 05, 2025 01:05 AM |
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"Efreets aren't fire elementals, they're fire spirits from the plane of fire" is a level of hair splitting that I didn't even know was possible hahaha.
Joking aside, there's a world of difference between having 1 efreet hero and turning Sylvan into Inferno. That's like saying that Asylum in H4 is Inferno because it has efreeti in it. Efreeti have pretty clearly been established as being ideologically aligned with chaos but clearly distinct from the Kreegans. This iteration of Sylvan is a very chaotic town. 1 efreet hero, especially one whose character has always been opportunistic, is perfectly fine imo.
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ANcientDRuids
Famous Hero
(Andruids for short)
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posted April 05, 2025 02:11 AM |
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Rimgrabber said:
"Efreets aren't fire elementals
Made perfect sense to just end reading there, because they indeed aren't ^^
MurlocAggroB said:
Alright. They're creatures summoned from the elemental planes
And like critters recruited from the non-planar wilderness, some have their alliances and associations. There are ones more pliable than others, true. And it's my opinion that Efreeti aren't that pliable.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 05, 2025 02:41 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 02:54, 05 Apr 2025.
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Right. Fact checking is hair splitting now. People throwing around unverified claims is not the problem, addressing them is. Right.....
You know, if Murloc is just an honest onlooker telling things for how they appear, I can't blame him. Because this faction tries its hardest to be one thing: misleading.
Meanwhile, the elephant in the room is still that they put a mythological demon creature, the fiery efreet, to be a protector of forests... And that against the Hive infestation sent by actual demons in the lore, the kreegans, who also happen to be her future employers by the time of Heroes 3... Because thwarting their plans up until then was so impressive to them they simply had to hire her... I don't see why everything about this faction must be a though pill to swallow. It's pulling too many ways thematically now and there's no cohesion left.
Rimgrabber said:
Joking aside, there's a world of difference between having 1 efreet hero and turning Sylvan into Inferno. That's like saying that Asylum in H4 is Inferno because it has efreeti in it. Efreeti have pretty clearly been established as being ideologically aligned with chaos but clearly distinct from the Kreegans. This iteration of Sylvan is a very chaotic town. 1 efreet hero, especially one whose character has always been opportunistic, is perfectly fine imo.
While not turning it Inferno or Asylum, which no one claimed anyway, it's not strengthening the Sylvan theme at all. It's further breaking away from it instead, which is the actual point. Or rather, breaking away from Conflux, for accuracy's sake.
And no, Sylvan as a theme is more organized than it is chaotic. Rampart in Heroes 3 is basically military. In Heroes 5 and 7 they are more mystical and tree-hugging, but still look like a cohesive society.
Meanwhile, OE's faction seems more like random creatures thrown together with no rime or reason other than how they look "nature-y". And when even that is lost, the type of chaos that ensues is not anything tasteful or satisfying, just confusion.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted April 05, 2025 03:09 AM |
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Stevie said:
Meanwhile, the elephant in the room is still that they put a mythological demon creature, the fiery efreet, to be a protector of forests...
Genies are mythological demons too, but you don't get mad when they're always aligned with the good guys. Like, actual djinn are complete dickheads. Also, Murmurwoods is home to elementals, so of course a fire elemental, or excuse me, a LEGALLY DISTINCT NON-ELEMENTAL FIRE SPIRIT MADE OF A FIRE WHO CONTROLS FIRE AND IS FROM THE PLANE OF FIRE BUT IS NOT A FIRE ELEMENTAL, is going to be welcome.
Stevie said:
And that against the Hive infestation sent by actual demons in the lore, the kreegans, who also happen to be her future employers by the time of Heroes 3... Because thwarting their plans up until then was so impressive to them they simply had to hire her...
That's speculation. We don't know that Hive has anything to do with the Kreegans. All we know is that it was created by a demon lord called the Dragonfly King. Remember that demons, actual hell-dwelling demons, do also exist in the setting. Also even if it is related to the Kreegans, it's a branch-off of a branch. It's the Scourge to the Burning Legion, or possibly even the Undead Plague to the Scourge to the Burning Legion.
Stevie said:
And no, Sylvan as a theme is more organized than it is chaotic. Rampart in Heroes 3 is basically military. In Heroes 5 and 7 they are more mystical and tree-hugging, but still look like a cohesive society.
Are you still confused about this? This is a very different faction, it just reuses the name because it has the same overarching theme of "Nature Faction". No one is arguing that this version of Sylvan is just like the other ones, when it's very obviously its own thing. The point is more that arguing about the name is pedantic.
That said, you very conveniently did not include one of the faction's previous incarnations, the one that this version of Sylvan has the most in common with: Preserve, from Heroes IV. That was the most animal-dominant version of the faction up until now, which was also directly allied with Asylum - the efreeti faction!
You know, the Reddit side of things is actually really enjoying Octavia's implementation. It's a sad day when you're being less rational than Reddit. Like, yuck.
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ANcientDRuids
Famous Hero
(Andruids for short)
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posted April 05, 2025 04:01 AM |
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MurlocAggroB said:
Genies are mythological demons too
Not in the old M&M universe. They are just type of a creature, like goblins, elves or lizardmen.
MurlocAggroB said:
You know, the Reddit side of things is actually really enjoying Octavia's implementation.
Why do you think anyone should be surprised or impressed by the lowest of the low?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 05, 2025 05:13 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 05:15, 05 Apr 2025.
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MurlocAggroB said:
Stevie said:
Meanwhile, the elephant in the room is still that they put a mythological demon creature, the fiery efreet, to be a protector of forests...
Genies are mythological demons too, but you don't get mad when they're always aligned with the good guys. Like, actual djinn are complete dickheads. Also, Murmurwoods is home to elementals, so of course a fire elemental, or excuse me, a LEGALLY DISTINCT NON-ELEMENTAL FIRE SPIRIT MADE OF A FIRE WHO CONTROLS FIRE AND IS FROM THE PLANE OF FIRE BUT IS NOT A FIRE ELEMENTAL, is going to be welcome.
Djinn are supernatural, not demonic necessarily, and can be good, evil or neutral. Whereas efreet, a specific type of djinn, is inherently evil and has demonic characteristics. So to absolutely no one's surprise, you are wrong, yet again.
As far as I'm concerned, Murmurwoods can be home to elementals, efreet, birdmen and mreowas as much as it wants to be. But not Sylvan.
Don't caps me.
MurlocAggroB said:
Stevie said:
And that against the Hive infestation sent by actual demons in the lore, the kreegans, who also happen to be her future employers by the time of Heroes 3... Because thwarting their plans up until then was so impressive to them they simply had to hire her...
That's speculation. We don't know that Hive has anything to do with the Kreegans. All we know is that it was created by a demon lord called the Dragonfly King. Remember that demons, actual hell-dwelling demons, do also exist in the setting. Also even if it is related to the Kreegans, it's a branch-off of a branch. It's the Scourge to the Burning Legion, or possibly even the Undead Plague to the Scourge to the Burning Legion.
My dude, at this point, you're clearly not the best source of information on anything, so forgive me if I can't take your word for it.
MurlocAggroB said:
Stevie said:
And no, Sylvan as a theme is more organized than it is chaotic. Rampart in Heroes 3 is basically military. In Heroes 5 and 7 they are more mystical and tree-hugging, but still look like a cohesive society.
Are you still confused about this? This is a very different faction, it just reuses the name because it has the same overarching theme of "Nature Faction". No one is arguing that this version of Sylvan is just like the other ones, when it's very obviously its own thing. The point is more that arguing about the name is pedantic.
That said, you very conveniently did not include one of the faction's previous incarnations, the one that this version of Sylvan has the most in common with: Preserve, from Heroes IV. That was the most animal-dominant version of the faction up until now, which was also directly allied with Asylum - the efreeti faction!
You know, the Reddit side of things is actually really enjoying Octavia's implementation. It's a sad day when you're being less rational than Reddit. Like, yuck.
Not confused, rather fighting against it. If it's a different faction, it deserves a different name, simple as that. You're saying it has the name despite being different, as if that's how things work. No, "nature faction" is broad and fits Conflux too, plus it's autumn-themed anyway which is again very different from green Sylvan.
Lots of words just to reiterate, when your point is basicaly "Nuh-uh, it's Sylvan". You're not demonstrating how it deserves to be called that, just how much we need to compromise in order to do it.
I did not mention Preserve because it's Rampart (Sylvan) and Conflux fused together. The Rampart (Sylvan) part of it is clear with elves and unicorn, something OE can't claim. And if you subtract Rampart (Sylvan) from Preserve you're left with the Conflux core and some outliers. Sounds familiar?
Also, as much of an echo chamber leddit can be, even there you can see people noticing that something is amiss. One moderator saying heroes are random and that the faction needs elves and a user mentioning how the name doesn't quite fit. Nothing we haven't already been saying here. Yes, they're overall more happy with this hodgepodge of a faction, and more power to them for that. I'm not exactly here to change anyone's mind on the matter. If this is non-issue, it will eventually die out. But for now the reveals are ongoing, so bear with it is all I can suggest.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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