| So Israel is now a fascist country |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
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posted September 27, 2026 03:40 PM |
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Again, Hamas was funded by Israel - not to kill Israelis, obviously, but funded they were by Israel, because they didn't want the PLO becoming too powerful. It's been the same error of judgement than the West made with the Taliban as a supposed instrument against the Soviets.
So the main error has been dishonest politics with a view on Palestine, never having any real interest in a solution that would in any way create a Palestine an independent political entity.
And of course the wrong people have been and still are paying the price for those mistakes Israel's leaders made.
And why would Israel be treated "better" by the world community? If Israel as a state is a matter of fact and to be accepted by everyone, then Israel is also a state measured with the same yardstick than anybody else. From my pov as a European Israel is treated specially. They are considered "Europe" when it comes to sports or stuff like ESC. Israel gets nearly 4 billion dollars from the US each year, and Israel has quite favorable trade agreements with the EU. Germany still pays compensation to the NS victims, and Israel gets favoarble deals with everything in armament.
So WHAT ELSE do you want? What "incentives" are you talking about over and above the incentives Israel is already happily enjoying? And what does Israel to justify getting even more?
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purerogue3
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posted September 27, 2026 04:59 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Again, Hamas was funded by Israel - not to kill Israelis, obviously, but funded they were by Israel, because they didn't want the PLO becoming too powerful. It's been the same error of judgement than the West made with the Taliban as a supposed instrument against the Soviets.
No, it worked. They didn't want a peaceful outcome that would result in a stronger palestine/soviet union - they just hoped the externalities wouldn't fly back into their commercial towers.
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JollyJoker
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posted September 27, 2026 05:28 PM |
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Yes, it "worked" - but talk about SIDE EFFECTS. I mean, you can always reach every goal whatsoever, the question is what price you pay/what side effects reaching the initial goal has. Take Ukraine war. If the main goal was to prevent Ukraine becoming a NATO member, Russia may reach that goal - for the price of having Sweden and Finland in NATO now, and that's just for starters.
It's operation successful, patient dead kind of "worked".
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purerogue3
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posted September 27, 2026 06:01 PM |
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They both got what they wanted - claim to Ukraine and the others NEVER being invaded.
You have to realize when you are in a game you cannot win.
The American Indian are never coming back.
You cannot possibly kill all the palestianians, even if you succeed, other ME-ners will take their place.
Everything is genocide.
Thus, it's stupid for the 'Jewish' to think of themselves as a seperate race/entity rather an a 'sect' or religious group.
The later is easily tolerated.
Or I should say religions cannot become political entities (excluding race altogether)
The basis of political division is practical, not ideological.
Ideology should be the refrain of the individual, it becomes dangerous when people amass according to such, as arguments become wars.
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Geny
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posted September 27, 2026 07:27 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 19:33, 27 Sep 2026.
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@JJ
What has Israel done in the past? Something you seem to forget, which is: attempt to create a Palestinian state. Not under Netanyahu, sure (although he did at first try to achieve an "economic peace" at least), but under Olmert. He completely froze construction in settlements, as a token of good faith and that led absolutely nowhere. And while the outrage at Israel is at its peak now (yes, in large part because of our current government), it has always been there and I don't really remember it turning to love and admiration when Olmert tried to move the peace process forward. Neither do I remember any serious pressure on the Palestinians to answer favorably. Much like there was no real pressure on Palestinians to stop the latest Gaza war. When Israel does something "bad", it is condemned and pressured. When Israel does something "good", it just becomes the new norm.
And please, Israel is not measured by the same yardstick as everyone else. Not even close. At least not by the UN or the EU. Whatever objective and valid criticisms you may have about Israel, you can't seriously suggest that it deserves to have twice as many resolutions against it as everyone else put together?
Now, maybe I'm wrong. I'm definitely biased on the matter. But at the very least, this should give you an idea of how many Israelis view the world's response to Israeli actions and why they take such responses less and less seriously. Regardless of who they voted for.
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JollyJoker
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posted September 27, 2026 08:46 PM |
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More in answer to @ purerogue: Jewish religion is ELITIST. The good thing about that is that they are not keen on converting people. The bad thing about it is that they are Jahve's chosen, which actually DOES mean they are something like a race (when you take that seriously). The way *I* understand it, the Jewish religion isn't *just* a religion that you can convert to and convert back. It's seen as more than that.
And we are now @ Geny and the Olmert phase seems to be another case where opposing forces in Israel (not abroad) sabotaged the talks. From a threat to leave the government coalition if part of Jerusalem would be brokered away up to the Gaza war, that, if I'm not wrong the Israeli army started (allegedly preemptively, but obviously timed to disrup the peace talks; opponent here was again Hamas, an organisation funded by Israel in the 70s to make it difficult for the PLO.
Let me make it perfectly clear here that I think the government elites in Israel are screweing with the Israeli public in a really bad way that leads to the Israeli people have a sensew of entitlement that I'd think is misplaced. The whole situation in the area is one of mutual disrespect which isn't a foundation for anything good.
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Geny
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posted September 27, 2026 08:56 PM |
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Notice how you addressed close to nothing of what I posted and definitely not my main point. Instead you keep focusing on what Israel did wrong, e.g. funding Hamas, putting pressure from within, while disregarding the positive attempts and completely ignoring the Palestinian part in their stateless position.
So basically, you just proved my point.
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purerogue3
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posted September 27, 2026 09:00 PM |
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@JJ
I don't really care how THEY see themselves what matters is reality or how OTHERS see them.
Religion is just an ideology, which also gives it's adherents various delusion claims to grandeur.
It doesn't matter if they are elitist or proselytizing, but it dooms(-?) them like the russians or mongolians to be perpetually aggressing or being victimized.
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JollyJoker
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posted September 27, 2026 09:54 PM |
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@ Geny
As I say, entitlement. I mean, if your own people sabotage your attempts, what do you expect? The fact is, there is a strong movement within the political elite of Israel that has no interest in peace or a Palestinian state, but instead wants "more" - bigger greater Israel. Settlement policies are followed for 60 years now - again, what do you expect?
Why do you expect special treatment over and above the one you already get, even though you obviously don't even register it as such? You claim I don't answeer you - but you didn't even acknowledge the special treatment you get.
@purerogue
You are somewhat missing the point here.
The Jews have a rich history and it's important to THEM. All their hardships didn't come unexpected, since it was their fate anyway. The Jews have always found strength in suffering - being Jahve's chosen comes with a price, especially when you have failed in the past.
If you are interestd in soccer/football you'll know Mourinho who always makes it a them vs. us and tries to pull strength out of "everyone is against us". That's the Jews for you.
As you can see when you read what Geny writes. The whole world is against them and makes special rules just for them.
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purerogue3
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posted September 27, 2026 10:14 PM |
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@JJ
ok, I'll shut up lest they come for me 
hear no + see no 
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Geny
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posted September 28, 2026 07:50 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
As you can see when you read what Geny writes. The whole world is against them and makes special rules just for them.
Maybe I should have explained myself better. I don't think that everyone is out to get us. I was talking about the world in general. So not everyone, but most of the world. The UN is supposed to be the representative of "the world". And if we look at the UN, then yes - it is generally against Israel and does focus on it more than any other country. I've already explained why I feel that way. I don't want special treatment. I want regular, fair treatment.
JollyJoker said:
Why do you expect special treatment over and above the one you already get, even though you obviously don't even register it as such? You claim I don't answeer you - but you didn't even acknowledge the special treatment you get.
Alright. If it helps the conversation to move along, let's discuss the positively special treatment Israel is getting, according to you. Let's see... what have you mentioned so far?
Israel is in European associations, e.g. sports competitions: this is a positive special treatment, that is a direct result of negative special treatment - being kicked out of Asian leagues because of politics. Moreover, You have Cyprus that is debatably closer to the Middle East rather than Europe and a number of countries that are mostly in Asia, but still compete in Europe (Turkey, Russia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, etc.). So while Israel's standing is special, it's not vastly different from many others.
US aid: firstly, USA and Israel are close allies, so it is natural for them to have special deals in place. Secondly, while USA does consistently send a lot of money to Israel, it also sends money to other countries. As you can see here, USA spends more money on Ukraine than Israel lately. And there are many other countries that get help from USA. Thirdly, most of the military aid USA sends to Israel is actually in investment in American production, because it is given on the strict condition that it must be used on American products. In conclusion, US spending on Israel is indeed very special, but it's not fully unique and more importantly it is a relationship between two close allies and does not represent the world's relations towards Israel.
Germany payments to Israel: similar to the previous section, this is extremely special, but it is a deal made between two specific countries with an extremely special history. I acknowledge that. I also acknowledge that Germany has the tendency to defend Israel more than most other European countries. But even so, we are now at only two countries with special relations with Israel out of the whole world.
Israel gets favorable deals with everything in armament: what does favorable mean? As far as I'm aware, Israeli companies bid for contracts like anyone else. They lose some and win more. But that is because Israel became a powerhouse in military technology, and especially defense technology, not because of any special treatment. Do you know otherwise?
That's what I found. Anything else?
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JollyJoker
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posted September 28, 2026 09:46 AM |
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So that's the good stuff.
And where is "the world" out to get you? Where is the bad stuff?
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Geny
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posted September 28, 2026 10:11 AM |
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Unreasonable number of UN resolutions (yes, they're mostly non-binding, but it shows bias).
Immediate condemnations when Israel allegedly breaks international law without any apologies if it's proven to be false.
Changing the criteria of starvation to try and fit Gaza into it.
Pressuring Israel (sometimes justifiably so) to stop wars and new settlements, without applying similar pressures on Palestinians to stop wars and terror attacks.
Holding Israeli military to standards no one else achieved.
Ignoring Israeli suffering, when its inconvenient: Red Cross never once demanded to see Israeli hostages, UN Women's Rights took months to weakly condemn the sexual violence of October 7th...
Stuff like that, that altogether creates an air of general hostility.
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JollyJoker
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posted September 28, 2026 11:23 AM |
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That's what your right-wing politicians have been telling you.
Look, Geny, the world KNOWS that Israel is a ... I'm missing a good word here ... a WATCHFUL state. The explicit function of the state Israel has been and is still, to give every Jew (who wants or needs it) a SAFE HARBOUR and to make sure that Jews aren't killed anymore, at least not BECAUSE they are Jews. That's basically in the founding documents, and the Western States (at least most of them) are tolerant and lenient because of it. They KNOW that Israel is more aggressive in protecting their people and their borders than the rest, all the more so since their direct neighbours aren't exactly friendly.
If "the world" (the UN) is critisizing Israel, it's not critisizing YOU, they are critisizing the course and the actions of your government. When they are going too far. Your government then spins it as "anti-semitism" and as attacks on Israel - but that's just their spin. It's a common tactic.
Your current leader has been around for 30 years in highest offices, and the reason for that is, that a majority in Israel has bought the "better safe than sorry" logic the right-wing conservative wing is selling to the public. And I don't think that Israel speaks with one tongue - there are strong indications that there is a strong faction in Israel that, let's say, sabotages every attempt of a more liberal, progressive way to get things right in the area, and I wouldn't even go so far as to allege sinister motives.
But your government has managed to steer Israel into a really bad one-way street that becomes ever more difficult to get out of, and your upcoming elections will be extremely important for your country (if they will even take place in an orderly way).
Israel will have to clean their house, that much would seem to be obvious, and it doesn't make sense to repeat the nonsense your government spouts. That's just propaganda for YOUR ears, for the home front (the Netanjahu address before the UN was an election show). The world has no interest in punishing you or something. What the world DOESN'T want is seeing Israel doing to others what was done to them.
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Geny
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posted September 28, 2026 11:51 AM |
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I addressed your every point on special treatment I could find.
You addressed none of mine, save for a vague handwaving of "your leaders are lying to you".
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JollyJoker
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posted September 28, 2026 01:01 PM |
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You addressed the points? You waved them away, "Ukraine gets more from the US", like, as if you had a right not only getting something, but getting the most.
And then you complain about an "unreasonable number of UN resolutions". What is that even supposed to mean? That there is a quota for UN resolutions you have already fulfilled? That the General Assembly is too often reprimanding Israel? Maybe Israel gives them good reason?
Immediate condemnations when Israel allegedly breaks the law with no apology when the condemnation was false? That sounds like it would happen all the time - name one example.
Changing the criteria of starvation for Gaza? Not that I know of. There are phases, basically, the situation was bad in the second half of last year, mainly, but at the end it got better, although not really peachy. What changes are there supposed to have been. And I consider this a really bad thing to say, because what you ACTUALLY express with that point is: "We kept them to the allowed minimum, just a mite above starvation level - and then you come along and change the levels, just to throw stones at us." You know, that's a bit like, "we made sure not to really torture them, but we wanted them to have a really hard time".
Pressuring Israel, not pressing the other side? "The other side" isn't a side, obviously, they have been branded terrorists and are wanted for that.
Holding Israel military to standards no one else achieved? EVERY military is held to standards, and if there are war crimes they are named. It's just that not everyone is supporting the international court.
And the condemning of Israeli suffering? Generally speaking, you should know at this point that the world isn't all that keen on acknowledging female suffering when it's about sexualized violence, whether it's Israeli women or others.
Generally, I think the Western part of the world and lots of other countries are treating Israel fair. But the world in general doesn't OWE Israel. Israel as a political entity doesn't have a higher allowance rate for atrocities because the Jews have suffered a lot in the past and are excused now for 100 years or something.
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Ghost
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Therefore I am
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posted September 28, 2026 01:31 PM |
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Erasure?
When WW2 people are still alive.. Said that Hitler caused regrettable event, so the US wanted to support Israel.. An result is fiasco, but WW2 people are satisfied.. Thus said that no command to Israel.. They give to the US.. In the future the US can't help Israel.. Maybe you don't know.. But two-state solution.. I don't know how.. Yes new generations speak about two-state.. Soon? First count how far behind WW2 people are..
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Geny
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posted September 28, 2026 02:39 PM |
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Yes, JJ, I addressed your points. Each and every one, after I have thought about them and searched around a bit for those I wasn't sure about. I mentioned Ukraine to prove that Israel isn't as special as you think and somehow, you're trying to twist it into a complaint that Israel isn't special enough. Even though I specifically said earlier I don't Israel to be special. That's just you reading what you want to read, instead of what's actually written.
I talked in an earlier post about "unreasonable number of UN resolutions". With other, more devastating conflicts and catastrophes around, with regimes who kill their own people, Israel is still at least twice as talked about as anyone else, if not everyone else combined. That's statistically improbable and calls those resolutions into question. Much like we should question UN Secretary's latest claim that in all his time as Secretary he can't recall a tragedy worse than Gaza, when Sudan, for example, is still in civil war and facing starvation on a larger scale than Gaza.
An example of condemnation that proved to be false? Why yes, those do happen a lot. The one I remember most is the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion in the beginning of the war: there was an explosion at the hospital and Palestinians immediately blamed Israel and stated that the body count is above 400 people. EVERYBODY condemned Israel for this. But as the days went by, it became much more plausible that a failed rocket fired from Gaza fell in the hospital parking lot (not the hospital itself) and that the death toll was much lower. No one responded to that. This is the major one I remember, but there are more "smaller" accusation being regularly thrown around, like the outcries about Israel killing journalists who end up being Hamas or Islamic Jihad military personnel.
I went to check the starvation criteria thing. Apparently I misremembered. The criteria did not change, but a less accurate method has been used. The thing is, even with that method Gaza fell short of actual famine criteria and yet the word was thrown out endlessly. And spare me more of your word twisting. You seem to be intent on putting meaning where there is none.
What do you mean "the other side isn't a side"? Israel is fighting itself, is it? Or maybe Israel announced the ceasefire by itself? Did Hamas not agree to it eventually? Not being a state does not make one not responsible for one's actions and decisions.
I honestly haven't noticed the world not being keen on acknowledging sexual violence against women. I did notice Women's Rights organizations talking about Gaza's women suffering, but it was more about deaths and lack of security than sexual violence. Than again, I'm not sure Israeli women got much support on that front either.
And again, I don't want anyone to own Israel. I don't want anyone to give Israel a free pass. I don't want the world to close their eyes and mouths in regards to war crimes, I'm sure some have been committed, as I doubt there was a major war when they haven't.
I want a fair treatment. An equal treatment. I want Israel to be condemned for things it actually did. I want Palestinians to be condemn for the things they actually did. I want words like famine, apartheid and genocide stop being thrown around when there isn't enough evidence to support them..... I want the world to put BOTH Israel AND Palestinians into a vice and not let go until a long term resolution is agreed upon. But that's just wishful thinking and frustration talking at this point.
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JollyJoker
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posted September 28, 2026 04:41 PM |
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I still think aou are barking at the wrong tree here. The real problem isn't "the world" - it's your own governments.
Israel created Hamas
Especially Netanyahu.
And this guy is in power (more or less prominent) since 30 years, Israelis watching.
I repeat, shouldn't you clean out the house in Israel before you accuse the world of treating ISRAEL (that is, the country and its population as opposed to the government that leads and speaks for the country) unfairly?
Do you seriously think, if the leading forces in Israel REALLY wanted a sensible solution of all the problems in the area including Palestine, that things would have been done and dusted long ago?
Think Saudis as well. Relations got better and better with them, and just when real normalization negotiations started, the Hamas attack came. And it was an extra brutal attack that WANTED Israel to exactly react the way they did react. Netanyahu did exactly what Hamas wanted him to do, and the result is obvious.
I suggest we wait for your elections and what direction things will take after that. I'm not very optimistic at this point that there will be much of a change, because whoever comes next will have a mess to clean up.
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Geny
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posted September 28, 2026 05:07 PM |
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You don't have to link proof for Israel/Netanyahu creating Hamas. I never disputed that. I also agreed with you that Netanyahu made things worse, especially with the current government. And I was the first one here to say that Israel has to change directions and clean things up.
And I don't think that if the leading forces in Israel REALLY wanted a sensible solution of all the problems in the area including Palestine, that things would have been done and dusted long ago? Because there were rare times when they did. But created lasting peace requires brave decisions on BOTH sides.
SO all I'm saying, is that if other countries truly want to see the end of conflicts around here, they should pitch in. And they should do it in a way that shows both Israeli and Palestinian (and some Arab countries as well) that certain behaviors will be punished, while others - rewarded. This should be done in a way that is very clear both to politicians and the people who elect them.
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