| Magic spells and skills reshuffle |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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BigPig2
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 02:01 PM |
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Edited by BigPig2 at 14:04, 23 Oct 2026.
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Magic spells and skills reshuffle
Hi all,
I am working on a private SoD mod for own use. I am mostly adjusting stats and bringing a bit variety to hero specialties (I will post it all in its own thread when its ready) but I feel that approach is not sufficient when it comes to magic.
The issues that from my perspective need fixing are:
- (enchantment) spell duration, I am reducing it to something like 1 + SP/8
- damage scaling, I am switching to different SP multipliers based on the corresponding magic school level, for example, Armaggeddon will be something like 100 + 25/30/35/40 (N/B/A/E) * SP damage
But most importantly, the mass effect on expert (advanced) issue. It makes Air and Earth magic so much stronger than nearly all the other secondary skills.
Here I have so far been set on splitting at the very least Haste and Slow into single target and mass versions (like in homm2) by using the slots left after removing for example disguse and visions from the game. But I just came up with another solution and I wonder what you, the long time homm3 and mod players think about it.
I figured, why not let Sorcery take it over? Distribute the effects like improved view Air/Earth, Teleport, Town portal destination selection, Res/Animate dead permanency, and similar non-quantitative differences in spell effects between Basic and Advanced, and give ALL enchantments mass effects on Expert.
Since I am already planning to make the magic school skills focus more on improving spell damage or effect strength (and maybe, in a minor way, duration) OR the spell cost (where the damage or effect gets buffed the spell cost will increase), Sorcery becomes a little bit redundant. And I feel at the very least its a single must have skill in place of two and the almost universal exclusion of the other two (Fire and Water are extremely situational).
What do you guys think?
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted October 23, 2026 03:05 PM |
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Hello!
I think that's a venue you can go.
Have you thought about making such spells area-affecting too or just mass and single? For example, haste starts covering the same area as the Inferno spell, which is wider than a fireball. It is a powerful effect already. But if you want to make it even more balanced, if you judge it's too strong still, you can make it not discerning allies from foes, so everyone within the area is affected, making you consider if hastening a foe in group pays off affecting the rest of the group. It would still almost work like a mass spell, if you have that grouped formation at the start of the battle, however, you would also be vulnerable to the slow from the enemy.
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Heroes Fanart Project Arts
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BigPig2
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 03:22 PM |
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Edited by BigPig2 at 15:25, 23 Oct 2026.
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Yes!
I have been thinking along the lines of Fireball size on Basic, Inferno size on Advanced and Mass on Expert.
The main issue I see here is that there is no spell in the game which only affects friendly or enemy troops under the cursor (in my experience the AI frequently damages its own troops with fireballs for example). This makes me wonder if the AI can ever use it effectively. Might be worth noting here that I play almost exclusively single player. While I am sure it can be taught to do so with a plugin, it still feels like a potential mixed blessing. On the other hand, it still does nothing to remedy the issue of Earth magic being necessary to control Town portal or make Resurrect permanent.
By giving it all to Sorcery you get all these improvements in one skill, but if you want the effects to be stronger you go for the relevant magic school. Otherwise youre rolling with a half strength mass Haste, half strength but permanent Resurrect, etc, which I feel is still worth the skill but not nearly as OP as expert Earth.
Edit: But if it were a matter of simply switching a friend/foe target flag then that could be a solid alternative. But possibly even better if it still depended on Sorcery and not the magic school skill?
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PandaTar
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posted October 23, 2026 03:34 PM |
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I think it's an elegant solution making it depend on the Sorcery skill, as long as there's also an elegant solution for Mastering Earth for those same spells.
For Town Portal, maybe, if possible, Basic skill allows you to jump to the nearest town. Advanced Choose between 2 nearest, up to 3 nearest. Or maybe they always considering just the nearest, but tweak with mana cost and movement points?
But I do like the idea of Sorcery Skill effectiveness. Although, sometimes I wonder if Wisdom and Sorcery could be merged together and leave an open slot for something else.
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Heroes Fanart Project Arts
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BigPig2
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 03:57 PM |
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Edited by BigPig2 at 16:03, 23 Oct 2026.
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So the thing about Town Portal or for example Resurrect is that the effect is on a binary, they either do one thing OR the other and thats about it. While I agree some sort of SP-based limit for TP would be great, I am not sure I can easily do that in hex, which is the tool I am currently using.
What I can do is, as you mention, adjust the mana cost and also the movement point cost, and that is what I am thinking to leave to Earth magic skill. I am also increasing the cost of the most powerful spells (TP, DD, Arma) to match the benefit they provide.
Edit: As for merging with Wisdom, I am afraid that will effectively remove both Sorcery and the skill based spell effects from the game for all but the very low level heroes..
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PandaTar
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posted October 23, 2026 05:03 PM |
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Edited by PandaTar at 17:06, 23 Oct 2026.
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Hmmm, I see.
As I'm not familiar with modding, I'm mostly limited to think on ideas, but I don't know how to implement them or how difficult they are to be implemented.
For Resurrection, I would imagine a situation similar to that of Heroes 4 Resurrection skill, but, as you said, if the only thing you can control is whether it happens or doesn't happen, then I'm not sure that you can 'dose' resurrection accordingly to Skill mastery, demanding multiple casting on a single unit to resurrect all slain units, which means it's a less powerful version of the current Expert spell.
You could also limit, if possible, the number of times you can cast resurrection on the battlefield, just like there's a limit for casting DD or TP on the adventure map, if I'm not mistaken. So you have one skill tweaking mana (Earth Magic), and another tweaking number of times you can cast per turn (Sorcery).
Regarding TP and DD, considering DD has a range based on your hero, if possible, you could also think of a range for TP, so you can Town Portal yourself to any town in range, and as you skill up, the range increases. Again, implementing this is something I don't know.
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BigPig2
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 05:38 PM |
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Talk about a broken skill!
I mean Resurrection is really ok, similarly to damage spells you can adjust its cost, SP multiplier, or both. I am leaning towards giving it a growing multiplier and a growing cost (similar to Armageddon up there). The only binary feature is the permanence.
You are right, it is DD that has a limited number of casts depending on the Air magic skill. I have been thinking to make this limit apply to all movement spells instead, and that limit could then get +1 per New Sorcery level. Theres also the thought of making DD and TP's range depend on SP, altho I feel that could royally screw might heroes over. Its exciting ideas but I am also mindful of not getting too caried away and changing more than "necessary". I want to salvage as much of the original mechanics as possible, for this first project anyway.
DD has also a binary feature in movement cost: 300 before and 200 at Expert. I havent looked at the code very closely but I feel this can be replaced with some kind simple skill based formula, I dont feel this is that big of an issue. And then again, there is the cost that can be made to scale with skill level.
I also dont want to give this new Sorcery too much power, I want it to be good but not too good, ideally just below "must-have".
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 06:16 PM |
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BigPig2 said:
...and that limit could then get +1 per New Sorcery level. Theres also the thought of making DD and TP's range depend on SP, altho I feel that could royally screw might heroes over. Its exciting ideas but I am also mindful of not getting too caried away and changing more than "necessary". I want to salvage as much of the original mechanics as possible, for this first project anyway.
I understand that point. I also believe that the fact that Might heroes getting the same sort of power as a Magic hero seems misplaced. Because both can attain basically the same secondary skills. Sure, spell power and specialty may differ, but artifacts can easily balance that out too. In my fan project, I'm giving a larger edge of magic for Magic heroes, as well as a physical edge to Might heroes (one good example is Stronghold mechanics in Heroes 5). The issue in Heroes 3 is that might heroes don't have an underlying ability that can bypass or compare to high-level spell casting. If you don't buy a book, they're simply glorified statues. But tweaking such thing would require a lot of changes, that you wouln't find productive or willing to do.
I never liked much DD, since Heroes 2, when enemy heroes came out of nowhere blinking, blinking, then taking your town, because you were 2 days far from it. In Heroes 3 it was more balanced, but still ... I think the Fly spell is already substantial. I would completely take DD from the game, and try to implement something else.
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Bigpig2
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 06:36 PM |
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I understand what you mean, DD is OP no matter how you cut it. Myself, I think I will start with a 100 mana and 300 movement point cost and see how it goes from there. I dont mind having it in the game but I want its cost to be felt.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted October 23, 2026 07:17 PM |
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Yeah DD is quite a nasty tool for making surprise attacks, especially if it can be cast 4 times a day!
I only allow 1 cast per day and I moved it to Fire Magic, but still it's kinda insane sometimes.
My map is a very open XL+ underground map, with tons of islands and caves and sometimes it can be very hard to defend towns, if enemy has DD and Fly and you won't see them coming.
DD even works on water, unlike TP and you can DD into the shroud, unlike Fly and Water Walk.
I have also considered banning DD sometimes...
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purerogue3
Famous Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 08:07 PM |
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If you make Fly not work on mountain tiles (i thought there was an easy way to do this but I forgot how) then it becomes Pathfinding as a spell - not sure if you want that though
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BigPig2
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 08:59 PM |
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Myself, I am ok with Fly, especially with high enough mana cost. I would like to fix it so that the monsters interact with you when you stop next to them mid flight (like I believe they did in HotA?) but I have not investigated how to do that yet.
Im still looking for more feedback on the Sorcery idea though.
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purerogue3
Famous Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 09:08 PM |
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That's Alex-level hard - but why are you not modding hota instead?
Your approach to spell is opposite of LordCameron which is +k instead of *k
I'm LC camp, but not as harsh - his water school spells don't even consider spell power
So sorcery as is for me
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BigPig2
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 09:20 PM |
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Yeah, I figure its not gonna be easy. Its a low priority fix for me, especially seing as from what I can see the AI does not exploit it much.
I am not modding hota because I dont play it.. and I dont play it cause it just doesnt appeal to me.
What do you mean by +k and *k? Magic school level adding a fixed amount of damage instead of a scaling multiplier?
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purerogue3
Famous Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 09:42 PM |
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hota has random map editor which allows you to personalize everything, and larger than L maps
yes, It might be an easy hex edit if you can work your way through the spell damage code, change the "+k" that is read in non/bas/adv/exp to "*" (multiply) instead of add
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BigPig2
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 09:53 PM |
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Edited by BigPig2 at 21:57, 23 Oct 2026.
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Oh. Yes, I do know how to do it, I believe I have even posted most of the edits in the "how to edit hota" thread..
edit: page 123
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purerogue3
Famous Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 10:08 PM |
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Oh good, you've already done it
btw. I have a crazy idea for Berserk - make it lvl 1-4/5/6/7
just like Clone - except the it's an offensive spell, so reworking the code is not simple
If this intrigues you, or you have happen to have solved it - pls let me know how
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BigPig2
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 10:19 PM |
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That is actually an interesting idea! And because there already is a spell that performs such check, you could probably just copy paste most of the code with relatively minor adjustments. Depending whether u want to have this check instead of or in addition to the aoe effect, you might also need to find space for it somewhere though.
But its a serious nerf for a school of magic that already isnt much of a favourite, what does fire have left going for it if you gut berserk?
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purerogue3
Famous Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 10:26 PM |
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I'm surprised you like it - nobody ever likes my ideas (but that's a good thing because it probably mean's I'm right  )
fireball and inferno more scaling (like you said, in fact fire could be the most scaling school)
because the original formula is 10* which is comparable to magic arrow
and because blind is OP, even at one turn (lvl3-4 for me)
I have de-massed all my spells
edit: think about it, berserk is VERY op - if you change blind to 1t fixed (differing retaliation for expertise) it's the equivalent of at least 2* blind, because the unit misses at least one turn, and delivers 2* turn of damage in total to the enemy
that's why 2/3*radius is broken for me
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BigPig2
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 23, 2026 11:13 PM |
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Edited by BigPig2 at 23:32, 23 Oct 2026.
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purerogue3 said:
but that's a good thing because it probably mean's I'm right
either that or the alternative
But yes, I dont think its controversial to say Berserk is very OP, and not even particularly situational. And yes, I will be giving Fireball, Inferno and even Land mine a bit more damage. Curse and Blind are both very solid, as is Armageddon (and with a little nerf and much higher mana cost it could feel less like cheesing). Maybe Berserk could just be single target.
It looks like there is a switch table where you could relatively easily run Berserk through the same check Clone goes through (see the SpellCastWorkChance function). The values in SPtraits appear to only be used to draw the targetting cursor shadow and that dependency is easy to remove, especially if you are going single target. I will need to study it some more before I understand what to edit and where but it looks doable.
edit: Try changing the 06 at 1A893D (in a _HD.exe) to 05 and then copy the effect numbers from Clone to Berserk in SPtraits and see if that does it. Expect the targetting cursor to misbehave.
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