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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Look inside for all Heroes 4 Charts you will ever need!
Thread: Look inside for all Heroes 4 Charts you will ever need! This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted December 09, 2002 12:51 PM

It seems I just encountered a bug. I fought 50 Nighmarez in 4 stacks. I had 4 stacks of Imps, a hero, a Vampire, 100 Skeletons and 28 ghosts. Losing battle, you would say and it is true.

But what is strange:

Turn 1: Nightmare 1 gets morale and casts Terror on my hero depleteing his spell points (it is ok).

Imps get 2 spell points from each Nightmares, they have 4 points left.

Turn 3: Nightmare 2 casts Terror(!!) on my hero with his 2 spell points left (2 spell points left after the casting too!)

...

Turn 5: My hero is Terrored again. Should I say that no Nightmare stack had any spell points left at that moment?

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted December 10, 2002 11:26 PM

Quote:

It is not that hard: Movement in Squares is equal to:

Minimal Creature Length x Movement



Hmmm, I'm not so sure if I understand you right here, csarmi. A satyr for example has a minimal creature length of 4 and a movement of 6. So according to that formula it should move 24 squares. However, according to the data it moves something like 16-18 squares.  The idea of terrain inequalities having influence on creature movement is interesting though and that additional data is useful.

Quote:

You might wanna re-check some of those class specialties. I found an error so there might be more.



Thanks for the input, Agent00BLeRD . You are right about the dark lord, so I edited that immediately. I also tried to test the bonus of the wizard king, but I strangely wasn't able to create one. When I gave a hero 2 nobility and chaos skills, it became a witch king! Can someone confirm that this is a bug? Anyway, I still believe that you are right about the class bonus.

Quote:

It seems I just encountered a bug.



Strange indeed! Though I think you probably had 3 imp stacks, since you would have 8 stacks in your army otherwise. I tested it in vain my self, so I still can't explain this.
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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted December 11, 2002 01:12 AM

Minimal creature length = 3 (it is the length of Halflings, for example)

argmin{Length(x)|x is a heroes IV creature}
 x

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Khaelo
Khaelo


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
posted December 11, 2002 02:16 AM

less-than-brilliant imps

Imps aren't too bright when it comes to strategically stealing mana from Nightmares.  The animation can be hard to follow, but it sure looks like multiple bunches of imps tend to all steal from the same stack of Nightmares, leaving the rest to cast their Terror.  (I haven't tested this extensively, but it's what I've observed.)  Maybe rearranging them would encourage them to swipe the mana from different stacks?

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted December 27, 2002 05:23 PM

You may be right about the actual creature movement, csarmi. Your estimation is the most accurate for now, so let's use it until we know more.

I edited and finished my chart about wrong artifact descriptions on the first page and adressed 14 new errors in the descriptions for a total of 29 now. You may find it interesting.
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Abort
Abort

Tavern Dweller
shapeshifter
posted December 27, 2002 06:59 PM

Quote:


Any 3 magic schools = arch mage +20%all spell effects

I believe you must have four skills in each of three magicks before you are promoted to archmage...

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The LIGHT in your life is the SHADOW in your death.

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dragonsister
dragonsister

Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
posted December 31, 2002 08:44 AM

Quote:


Any 3 magic schools = arch mage +20%all spell effects

I believe you must have four skills in each of three magicks before you are promoted to archmage...



Hmm ... I bought Kozuss (Wizard in the Gathering Storms campaigns; Order/Chaos) advanced life magic (using Universities built in Order towns) and that turned him into an Archmage.  Bohb, in another campaign, starts with basic in every magic and one more skill point in order, and that made him an Archmage.

I did research Advanced Classes fairly carefully at one point, wrote it up on MapHaven.
(http://heroes.mycomport.com/cgi-bin/noticeboards/get_notice.cgi?NOTICE_ID=1561&TEMPLATE=get_notice_with_responses.html
or follow the link from http://heroes.mycomport.com/maphaven/heroes4/more/articles.html

I may have to check things again in light of subsequent observations :-)

Wub, I think your tables and observations are wonderful; I've seen many insightful articles from you, and the tables you generate are valuable resources.  I would love to preserve this information on MapHaven, with your permission, either by copying it myself so you don't have to do a thing, (only I'm desperately busy for the next month trying to finish my thesis) or by giving you free rein in the articles page I mentioned above, and facility to announce your articles on MapHaven's front page when you put them up.  (a) Would you grant permission, (b) would you like the free rein?  (Surely I've asked this before?)  My home email is rbutt@pcug.org.au.  If you say no, I shall be reduced to reading your articles, extracting the most insightful parts, verifying them for myself, and writing them up for myself, referring to the points as having first been raised by x at y.  However, see above comment about lack of time!  :-)

DragonSister

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Joel
Joel


Adventuring Hero
An Underdog (Version 2.0)
posted January 10, 2003 07:48 AM
Edited By: Joel on 10 Jan 2003

Hiya Wub. :-)
I'm not sure why you mentioned me.  I didn't do anything other than tell you what you already knew.:-)  And asked you to look into some artifacts of course.;-)

Anyways, I'm glad to see you revised the list, but I suggest you look into the DragonScale Shield and the Shield of Chaos a little more.  You lose the fire resitance and Order Ward if you move, yes.  But when you attack something the wards come back.  Until you move again.  lol

It's all very confusing and annoying.  Useful though.  ;-)

At this point I'm just waiting to hear that someone else can confirm this and it's not just my copy of h4 that does this.  It'd reassure me that the universe is Ordered. ;-p

Edited to say:  Hmmm, it's forcing me to take an avatar now.  When did the none avatar become no longer usable?  Oh well, I guess old faces still fit.  :-/  

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splat
splat


Adventuring Hero
posted January 10, 2003 01:29 PM
Edited By: splat on 10 Jan 2003

Have you guys seen this class table yet:
kynosarges.de/Heroes/H4Classes.pdf

Fits on one landscape A4 sheet.

I have also copy/pasted Wub's first chart, the elemental/undead/etc. spell immunities, into Word 97 and made it a nice single A4 sheet with a table. With Wub's consent and if this forum allows attachments, I could make it available. (don't tell me it was already there on another site).

And about those artifact bugs, did somebody post them to the programmers of Heroes IV? I think they can fix these things quickly and I consider them urgent.

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted January 14, 2003 07:37 PM
Edited By: Wub on 14 Jan 2003

I have not posted much on the boards lately because I am once again quite busy, but I am still working on the charts in this thread. At this moment I am putting the most important charts together and writing a more or less comprehensive article around them so that the information can be posted on Maphaven.
That's why I still greatly appreciate your input, Joel. I will retest the artifacts you mentioned, but you will probably be right again anyway . By the way, I only tested the relic artifacts you said were incorrect, which saved me lots of time. So no need for you to be so modest .
Nice class table, splat. A lot more surveyable than mine at least . By the way, I suspect that these class descriptions are as much bugged as the artifact descriptions, but I may look into that some time. For that matter, I know of some spells to be bugged as well (such as the unholy song, fortune and misfortune spell that change the effectivity of direct damage spells).
Feel free to distribute your chart about the spell immunities, but you may want to wait for it to be completed soon. Would indeed be nice to see it in a table, but this forum does not allow for attachments as far as I know. I also hope to post the chart on Maphaven as well but apart from that it is on no other site. You may want to link it to this thread for the explanation of the chart. And maybe I will post that chart about the artifacts on the 3DO boards as well for them to be corrected, because they sure are annoying. I don't have much hope for a new patch though...

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted January 20, 2003 11:57 PM
Edited By: Wub on 21 Jan 2003

Spellcasting artifacts and archmage class prerequisites

Quote:
'I suggest you look into the DragonScale Shield and the Shield of Chaos a little more. You lose the fire resitance and Order Ward if you move, yes. But when you attack something the wards come back. Until you move again.'

Yeah I found that too. Quite confusing . It is even so that if you move away and then move back to the place where you made your last attack, you get the order ward/fire resistance again. I tested it with the fizbin of misfortune as well, so I guess this is true for all artifacts that cast a bonus upon a creature stack. But how on earth can I explain this in a chart concisely !? Thanks for the tip though.

I also tested the prerequisites of the archmage class. But I edited this post because I think my explanation is inaccurate. The post below explains archmage prerequisites better.
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splat
splat


Adventuring Hero
posted January 21, 2003 12:07 PM
Edited By: splat on 21 Jan 2003

archmage

That archmage thing is so simple.
Archmage: take all magic skills and subtract 3.
All others: take the concerning skills and subtract 1.
Base (one-skill) classes: subtract nothing.
The highest value wins. Two equal values -> you stay in your current class.
I'm not sure about the witch king, which consists of 3 skill groups.

Because minus 3 is less than minus 1, two skill groups can never make an archmage.

If you are complete grandmaster order (20 skills) and just basic in death and chaos, then your mage-score=20, your archmage score = 19 (22-3), your wizard/shadowmage scores are 20 (21-1), so you stay mage.

This way, you can calculate what you need to become archmage from a given situation.

Basic+spellpoints in 3 magic classes won't work: score 3 for archmage, and also score 3 for several 2-magics advanced classes. And when you get the 5th of those 6 skills, you will become that 2-magics advanced class.

Is it not as follows: 3 magic skill groups, at least 3 in every group, and not so much nonmagic skills. A fourth magic group with one skill will decrease the required number for another group with 1 skill.


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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted January 24, 2003 03:35 PM

I edited and finished chart 1 about spell immunities. I tested the complete spell immunity of illusions and I found out that I forgot the holy word and holy shout spells. So the chart should now contain all spells that don't work on undead, elemental, mechanical and illusionary creatures.
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splat
splat


Adventuring Hero
posted January 24, 2003 05:36 PM
Edited By: splat on 24 Jan 2003

you removed power drain and mana flare: illusions can't cast spells, mechanical and undead have no spells.
but what about water elementals? I guess they both worked and you considered them 'none are immune' spells.

I put them on alphabetical order in my list, I think that is better.

Holy shout is mass spell of holy word.
You wouldn't mention mass spells.

Deadraising spells: you can cast them on still-standing stacks that have lost some units. Illusions disappear after you kill them and don't leave a dead stack, so I guess you put N/A for that reason.
But one could try when the illusions stack is half destroyed. I would put X instead of N/A then.

Does holy word kill elementals? I guess you mean stone gargoyles, they are death aligned.
Maybe you should put an asterisk there: gargoyles only, to avoid confusion. (it doesn't work on fire elems does it??)

Death call what does it do? It says it revives 'dead' creatures. Is it death or dead creatures? I guess they mean creatures of death alignment? Then, gargoyles not also?
And gargoyles are elementals.

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japjer
japjer


Adventuring Hero
posted January 24, 2003 09:21 PM

about holy word, it works on elementals, on all of them. Though it's still restricted by how the spell works. It attacks all death aligned creatures and since WE etc aren't death-aligned...

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted January 25, 2003 01:34 AM

Quote:
'you removed power drain and mana flare: illusions can't cast spells, mechanical and undead have no spells.
but what about water elementals? I guess they both worked and you considered them 'none are immune' spells.'

Yep, that's the reason. I only wanted to list spells that don't work, it's no use to mention all spells. By the way, I found out that illusions theoretically can cast spells. They don't have spell points but with some imps in the army that can be solved. So that massive ice bolt that japjer spoke about earlier is technically indeed possible .

Quote:
'I put them on alphabetical order in my list, I think that is better.'

I think that too. It is much more surveyable than what I had to post here. With your consent I'd like to use it for the article that I'm writing for Maphaven. That saves me the work of alphabetizing and editing my older table. And I won't put my own name under it of course

Quote:
'Holy shout is mass spell of holy word.
You wouldn't mention mass spells.'

Agreed, I will edit it right away.

Quote:
' Deadraising spells: you can cast them on still-standing stacks that have lost some units. Illusions disappear after you kill them and don't leave a dead stack, so I guess you put N/A for that reason.
But one could try when the illusions stack is half destroyed. I would put X instead of N/A then.'

Ah, I overlooked that. Great, thanks ! I tested it now and all illusions are indeed immune to raising spells. Well, that was to be expected of course. I edited it too.

Quote:
'Does holy word kill elementals? I guess you mean stone gargoyles, they are death aligned.
Maybe you should put an asterisk there: gargoyles only, to avoid confusion. (it doesn't work on fire elems does it??)'

With writing that elementals are immune to holy word I had exactly in mind what Japjer posted in the previous post. But if it's confusing it won't hurt to add an asterisk, so I did that.

Quote:
' Death call what does it do? It says it revives 'dead' creatures. Is it death or dead creatures? I guess they mean creatures of death alignment? Then, gargoyles not also?
And gargoyles are elementals.'

Death call raises creatures that have died and lived before they perished. So  the information in the table is correct in this case.

Thank you very much for the remarks on the chart, splat. They were really useful. I hope to hear from you if I can post your table.
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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted March 04, 2003 05:44 PM
Edited By: Wub on 31 Mar 2003

Final update

I have been doing some more work on the charts lately, which I will describe here.

-Splat told me that there was an error in the first chart, because undead creatures CAN be sacrificed and brought back with sacrifice. So I corrected that. Many thanks for the info.
-I made a table of contents for this thread
-The layout of the wrong artifact descriptions chart has been corrected.
-I have posted the wrong artifact descriptions chart on the 3DO boards. Don't think they are planning to fix the descriptions though.
-Three of these charts and an explanation of them have been posted on maphaven.

-EDIT: I have just upgraded my copy of Heroes 4 to UK version 3.0 and noted that 2 wrong artifact descriptions have been corrected. The throwing spear and axe work now as they should. I edited this in the chart.

That's all. I guess my job here is done now. Thanks for the positive feedback.


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