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| Thread: Does Religion fall apart once you decide to pick and choose? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Zune
Adventuring Hero
of Tatalia
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posted December 22, 2002 03:20 PM |
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At what point did it become okay for you to tell anyone how to live? "I'm not telling them how to live, GOD is." Well, so you say. God hasn't popped into my bedroom and said "Bizud, here's the rules:" And then I hear that God would love to show himself to me, but I haven't opened myself to him, blah blah. So, unless I'm willing to take a HUGE leap of faith, I'm SOL, right? Well, then, tough nuggets for me, I don't take leaps of faith.
Well, in my opinion, it's quite pointless to tell unchristian people anyone how God wants them to live. The first step is to experience His love and accept Jesus as your saviour. Once you start to believe and your faith starts growing, you will eventually live more according to God's will. I don't believe in the "You have to do this and that, or else you go to hell" method.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted December 22, 2002 04:50 PM |
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I like what you said (previous poster whose avatar I know)
In the past post I made in this thread, I state I'm a new born christian. Its hard to hold this faith. It was hard to find what I had been looking for my whole life, and I was full of motivation. Then (its along story)...
good luck to fellow sane people.. I hope to find sanity soon.
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What are you up to
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 22, 2002 05:32 PM |
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Once again, the fact that you think you can get away with telling people that the private things they do in the privacy in their own home are wrong, and that THE UNIVERSE doesn't want them to do it, would be entertaining if it wasn't so snowing sick.
So, you're saying that I'll see it when I believe it, is that it? Well, I have some similar beliefs, but it's hard to take someone seriously when the best advice they can offer is "Just accept His love." If it were that easy, then everyone would have done it.
Now, we get to the fun part. If you don't mind, would you answer a simple question? What exactly does being in God's love feel like, compared to NOT being in it?
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted December 22, 2002 06:53 PM |
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I know where you stand bizud.
You might not see it like this, but when you type blasphemy, you feel something suggesting otherwise. Pulling you from saying those things.
There are real things besides what you see hear taste touch, and smell.
I hope you dont shake off the pulls. They are yourself, wanting you to keep trying.
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What are you up to
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Bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 23, 2002 04:15 AM |
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Though I fully believe that there are things beyond what we perceive with conventional senses, I have a little trouble with the idea that the universe wants me to act a certain way, beyond the universal ethics of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 23, 2002 09:03 AM |
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I guess you haven't bothered to actually research that subject before you open your mouth....that statement is irrevocably wrong. I have elaborated upon it elsewhere...so I will leave it to you to actually pick up a history book.
I think it´s you who needs another history lesson here - I recommend the one that I gave you in the "Attack Iraq" thread a while ago. When you made had the nerves to say that throughout history, Christian and Jewish religions were in some kind of brotherly state. And I showed you a number of official catholic websites (so you couldn´t pull that "it´s all lies"-trick which you love so much) that documented very well who was first to limit Jewish rights, to put them into ghettos, to force them to wear the star of David and not to leave their homes on certain Christian days. Let´s not forget that the founder of your religion wrote books where he appealed for the burning of synagogues and Jewish homes. In Nürnberg 1945-1949, some of the leading Nazi slaughters and agitators defended themselves by saying: We were just following the teachings of Martin Luther.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted December 23, 2002 11:13 AM |
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And it is religion's fault that people are fools?
Only madman doesn't believe into God (I'm not talking about Christian God, just God or gods in general). No God, no man. You are like a car without designer and thus don't even exist.
If you believe into writings of Bible, then you must admit that there are or have been other gods (propably of lesser power). It is mentioned in the first book of the Bible.
By the way, Lews, if I go and burn your home and then say that I was ordered to do so by your President, would you believe me? (Talking about those Nazis here.)
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 23, 2002 01:13 PM |
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Only a madman doesn't believe in god.
Are you serious? It's fine to disagree with someone, but don't go around calling everyone who disagrees with you a looney. If anything, I'm apt to call you a looney for basing your entire system of beliefs on something that can't be proven.
Ever heard of something called "evolution?" Well, here's a primer. The basic idea is that creatures with traits that make them more likely to survive, survive. Those traits get passed along to their offspring, as opposed to those who don't have the same advantages (that's why evolution only works when competition for survival exists - if there's no competetion, and everybody survives to reproduce, then everyone's genes are passed along, and the population in question does not evolve. This is why human evolution has virtually ceased).
Well, where do these traits come from in the first place? Genetic mutation. RANDOM genetic mutation. The enzymes that reproduce DNA screw up, and new genes are created. Occasionally, this results in an advantage, such as wings on a bear (I know it couldn't happen, but it's an example). That bear would be virtually guaranteed to survive long enough to reproduce, and soon, other bears with wings are born.
My point is that it's quite feasible (and, in fact, likely) that there was no "design" at all.
What exactly has you so convinced that all this was planned?
Now, I believe in SOME kind of "force" or what have you, that had to have set off the big bang, because something can't come from nothing. But I don't think anyone sat down and blueprinted out the entire history of the universe.
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Zune
Adventuring Hero
of Tatalia
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posted December 23, 2002 02:51 PM |
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If you believe into writings of Bible, then you must admit that there are or have been other gods (propably of lesser power). It is mentioned in the first book of the Bible.
Uh... please explain? Where exactly does it say that there are other gods?
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So, you're saying that I'll see it when I believe it, is that it? Well, I have some similar beliefs, but it's hard to take someone seriously when the best advice they can offer is "Just accept His love." If it were that easy, then everyone would have done it.
Of course, I'm not expecting you to accept something you haven't experienced. I would never have believed in God if He hadn't done anything in my life. Thus we get to your next question:
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Now, we get to the fun part. If you don't mind, would you answer a simple question? What exactly does being in God's love feel like, compared to NOT being in it?
That is not at all a simple question to answer. You can experience God in many different ways, and it's not like you can feel God's love all the time (at least, I don't feel it all the time). I can go through hard times in which it seems like God is far away, but because of my earlier experiences, I know that He is there even so, carrying me through the difficulties.
Some people have one special happening which made them immediately turn towards Jesus. For others, like me, it's more of a gradual process. I do have one meeting three years ago in which I decided to really follow God, but I've always called myself a Christian, and I honestly don't know whether I've been saved all the time. But I can tell you about my best experience in my life (I have actually told about it before in another thread, but that thread is probably at page 30-40 now).
It was at a Christian meeting with almost 2000 youths. It was a good meeting with an excellent preacher, but the really wonderful part was after the preaching. We were singing worship songs, and I was standing up worshipping, when I suddenly felt my legs got heavy (which is a supernatural happening in itself considering my weight). About two or three seconds later, the preacher said: “There are some people in the hall who feel their legs are getting heavy and their body is hard to bear. I want you to come forward to the front of the stage.” I was not doubting that was God speaking to me (and probably many other people as well), so I walked to the front.
What happened next is undescribable. I could try to explain how I felt the presence of God there, but unless you have had the same experience yourself, you wouldn’t understand it. All I can say is that it was wonderful. Soon I started to cry, which I hadn’t done for years, and at the same time, my legs got more and more heavy. After some minutes, I didn’t manage to stand at all, and I had to lay down at the floor, shaking and crying. And having a lovely time with God.
I was laying there about half an hour, when I finally stopped crying, and I felt I was finished. I looked at my clock, which was 21:59.30 (the meeting finished at 22:00.00). The worship team had been singing silently all the time, and just when I stopped crying, they sang “I’m satisfied,” which I considered a confirmation that I was finished and should get up from the floor.
So I stood up, and what a change my body had gone through! Half an hour ago, my legs couldn’t bear my body, but now it felt like all my weight had gone! For every step, it seemed like I was taking off from the floor, and I just wanted to fly around in the room (unfortunately, it didn’t work...) But anyway, it was a lovely experience.
So, that was my little testimony. I have others as well, if anyone are interested.
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 23, 2002 03:24 PM |
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Uh... please explain? Where exactly does it say that there are other gods?
It doesn't, zune, he's talking out of his hat.
For one to intelligently critique the Bible, one must have at least read it first.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted December 23, 2002 08:15 PM |
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You are an evidence of God. Everything is. And it is said in Bible that people who don't believe into God are madmen. I have to agree there, well maybe not, they can be ignorant as well  (it is true for me too, it is not possible to know everything). Heck, moreover, study some history. Some historians do agree that Jesus has lived. Same can be said about history of Jews, goes well with story in the Bible.
I've heard and I know about Evolution. And propably more than you know. But it is enough to know that it is not proven. Study it more, whole books have been written to support and against it. I suggest that you study both. Visiting your local library might help. I wouldn't believe into such a faulty theory (yes, it is still not proven and likely never will). Ironically, it is the (faults in the) Evolution that has proven me that this all is planned.
Zone, first book of Mooses (I'm not sure what its name is in english, but that would be its translation), chapter 6.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 23, 2002 08:40 PM |
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Thunder, that is a very weak argumentation. You say: The world is very complex, we are very complex, so there must be an intelligent designer.
But wouldn´t this intelligent designer be incredibly complex, too? Who or what has created your Christian god then?
Dismissing the theory of evolution as unproven, and at the same time believing in some mad guru drivel from a 2000 years old book - if you don´t see that something´s from with that, I can´t help you.
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By the way, Lews, if I go and burn your home and then say that I was ordered to do so by your President, would you believe me? (Talking about those Nazis here.)
Only if this president had written books with containts like: "Thunder, if you want to be a good citizen, you must go and burn Lews´ home! Because Lews is a child of Satan!" are repeated many times.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 23, 2002 09:00 PM |
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And Zune, experiences of mass hysteria like that are made not only by people of all existing religions and other sects, but also by visitors of every second rock concert. I often heard the phrase "Elvis is a god", but I have never interpreted it as to be taken by word before.
Besides, if you were an almighty god, would you have such a small ego that you would want lesser creatures to sing worship songs to you all the time?
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ironmlh
Known Hero
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posted December 23, 2002 09:15 PM |
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what is the difference between the bible and another story written by man?
Easy, none, try reading a horror novel it reads better.
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Well, in my opinion, it's quite pointless to tell unchristian people anyone how God wants them to live. The first step is to experience His love and accept Jesus as your saviour. Once you start to believe and your faith starts growing, you will eventually live more according to God's will.
Why, are you too weak-minded to follow your own will? Again you prove my point religion is based solely on a human-generated need to `believe' in something, some rules to `follow' to make you `better'
What a crock, so many people are living in fairy tales.
Might as well follow the beliefs of Pinochio or Winnie the Pooh, i am sure someone can write something up for you all to follow.
Live for yourself and your families!
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"Knowledge has discarded all biblical teachings"
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted December 23, 2002 09:17 PM |
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I have a little trouble with the idea that the universe wants me to act a certain way
bizud.
It's not like *that*, it's like this. stealing for example. It's dishonest, and done for a greedy cause.
Beliving in god isn't the way to be good.
If everyone on earth said a way to be good, and God said thats not good, then it's not good.
These movies nowa day's for example. Murder, rape, lust, homosexuality, ect is accepted through out most of the world. Just because the world say's it's okay to laugh at it, or watch it, dosnt mean it's okay.
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What are you up to
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted December 23, 2002 11:48 PM |
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well dargon is right when he said that millions of people were killed in jesus's name. Unfortunatly the darkside of that is that millions of people have been killed in GOD'S name.
Jesus(man or myth) was just some good person goin around helping folks. His "miracles" were probably nothing more than eat right and dont drink that red liquid. Maybe he discovered some kinda medicinal plant or "theory" that helped him help others.
Religion falls apart once u start dictating to others that yours is the one true one.... Hence major religions fall apart in the end 
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Bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 24, 2002 04:57 AM |
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Religion falls apart once u start dictating to others that yours is the one true one.... Hence major religions fall apart in the end.
Thank you. This is the single best argument against any one particular religion; all of the others have made the same claims, so what's so special about yours?
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bizud.
It's not like *that*, it's like this. stealing for example. It's dishonest, and done for a greedy cause.
Beliving in god isn't the way to be good.
If everyone on earth said a way to be good, and God said thats not good, then it's not good.
These movies nowa day's for example. Murder, rape, lust, homosexuality, ect is accepted through out most of the world. Just because the world say's it's okay to laugh at it, or watch it, dosnt mean it's okay.
I have a very strong sense of right and wrong. Killing is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Destruction of another's property is wrong. Why are these things wrong? Because they remove from the victim some element of control over his or her own life. Everyone has the right to control their own life, but that right ends when you start removing that same right from others.
I find it offensive that you would lump homosexuality in with murder and rape. Murder and rape are horrible, abhorrent examples of the worst in man, but two guys getting it on doesn't hurt anyone!
And, for the record, I don't particularly enjoy violence in movies. I find it difficult to understand how someone could derive pleasure from watching someone's brains fall out.
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You are an evidence of God. Everything is. And it is said in Bible that people who don't believe into God are madmen. I have to agree there, well maybe not, they can be ignorant as well (it is true for me too, it is not possible to know everything). Heck, moreover, study some history. Some historians do agree that Jesus has lived. Same can be said about history of Jews, goes well with story in the Bible.
I believe that Jesus Christ existed. Do I believe he was a more "enlightened," or what have you, person than the rest of us? Yes. Do I believe he was the son of God? Of course not. If I could convince you that I could walk on water, or turn water into wine, perhaps through stage magic, and then claimed to be the son of all creation, would you believe me? No, you'd probably think I was a nut job. The reason being, people today are a lot smarter than people 2000 years ago.
I would doubt very much if you understand evolution better than I do. However, I would very much like you to point out some of these flaws to me.
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tree
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 24, 2002 07:08 AM |
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Like a ameba will not be aware of the presence of a man, mortals may also not be aware of God. But you can't say man doesn't exist just because ameba don't know him. Same with God, only difference is that man does not necessarily has anything to do with ameba, but God is heavily connected to man.
THe most important concept is God exist. All myth has something like 'God created' human. And evolution has never been proven be true...just specutation. Even Darwin himself didn't believe it when he got older and wiser. And as we know, man's imagination is locked in a small area...u can never think of something that didn't occur before or has models. If u don't believe, give me a sample. All legends say God created human, not that human existed by itself. They must experience that to have such imagination or thoughts.
Then, the almost same important thing is who is that God. If u don't know who that is, u may just as well worship a teapot and accept that as ur savior. But does that mean anythin'? Some people think yes. They build some statue of living guys and worship, or even just a picture of that quack. And that matters. Not only u are puttin' ur face in some idol, but also u are offending the real God. Ignorant People say boldly "well what is he gonna to about it, strike me with a thunderbolt?" Well that is not necessary. Since all man'll return to dust, and they are going to hell by default, it doesn't really matter if God kills u instantly or not. If people don't do anything about it, they're going to that sulfur pit and receive their punishment for their conceit. The time of living allows them to turn back...
Conceited man then ask: what's the prove for afterlife? No one can give any! Therefore it doesn't exist. First, this is another dull-witted excuse. U might know the larva of dragonfly. They live underwater. A story: As they grow old, they began to worry where'd they end up after they 'die'. So they decided to let the first one die go back and tell'em if there's a afterlife. So the oldest one 'died' later. It morphed into a dragonfly and fly around...it remembers the promise, and returned to tell them. But not only it cannot return to water, it's companions couldn't recognize it and understand it anymore, they don't even know its presence. So the dragonfly got away. Larvas lost their hope and asked another old one to do so. But the samething happened again. So in the end, larvas believed their's no afterlife. People are just like those larvae...
about pickin' and choosing. People here are mostly referring to christianity...ain't they? Any budhas? Any Muslims? Very unlikely. So it's almost certain christianity or nothing. So i won't take in account of other religions.
anyway, if u don't have faith, u still won't gain any when u read through the post. (since u are mostly against it or addin' own understanding into doctorines)If ur faith is weak...i donno if u r gonna lose it after hearing all those stuff (if that's the case u're pretty pathetic). If ur faith is strong, u don't care about what they say and may defend ur belief or ignore them...
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted December 24, 2002 07:22 AM |
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Instead of living in the debate society, why not have real desire and find out for yourselfs?
If you really want to know so bad, Find out.
Saying everything you think matters that's keeping you away from trying, is more pointless than what you *recive* on Christmas.
When I looked into myself and my muscels tightend and tried and tried, when my mind was screaming "GOD SHOW ME A SIGN!!" which I had done many many time's... I gave up after every try.
It's what you desire. Your most deep, and truth urges inside, to be.
I'm learning more now, about the history of the world through bible, and misc resource. There's some connection between the fact that I'm learning now, and I used to try to think of questions so I could fill in the blank, or deny my desires.
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What are you up to
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 24, 2002 07:22 AM |
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I refuse to have an "intellectual" debate with someone who cannot even be bothered to type the word "you."
Now, I ask you: define "hell." Oblivion? And end to consciousness? Feeding the worms? Hell, that's what I expected all along!
Let me ask you all a question: God wants everyone to be saved, right? God wants everyone to be in heaven with him, right (apparently, not enough that he's going to make getting in automatic, but hey, the big guy has standards, good for him)? So you claim.
Now, consider that you also claim that god created the universe. This means that he created hell as well, then, right? So, my question is, why send the people who he can't (or won't) let into heaven to an eternity of suffering? He chose to create hell, right, so why? To "learn my lesson?" Learning a lesson doesn't do me much good if there's no chance for me to ever leave! Couldn't he just NOT save me? Couldn't he just, y'know, let me go *poof* into oblivion? Why does he have to tack on an eternity of suffering, under the guise of love? Answer me that.
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