|
| Thread: WAR on IRAQ |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
|
Katino
Tavern Dweller
|
posted March 27, 2003 02:38 AM |
|
|
Poll Question:
WAR on IRAQ
IS the war in Iraq justified?
|
|
IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
|
posted March 27, 2003 04:03 AM |
|
|
Well, you see, there is very little point in making a poll if you only have one option. I, for one, say the war is not justified.
____________
|
|
csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
|
|
posted March 27, 2003 07:22 AM |
|
|
|
this_other_guy
Famous Hero
{0_o} heh...
|
|
posted March 27, 2003 07:25 AM |
|
|
hard to say... unjustified.
____________
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted March 27, 2003 02:13 PM |
|
|
Justified, maybe...... the right option? nope.
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
silx87
Supreme Hero
|
posted March 27, 2003 02:49 PM |
|
|
I DO NOT agree with u!
sept for Hudson,I dun see what he means,so I'm not disagreeing.
I think the war is MOST CERTAINLY justified!
They should go ahead and kill Saddam!
If u say the Iraquis are innocent peeps and shouldn't suffer from it,well I say:Saddam is a fundamentalist ruler,right?So,his followers are fanatics!If Saddam says:blow up this village,his men rush to do so!So I say,the Iraqui ppl are NOT all that innocent!
____________
|
|
Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
|
|
posted March 27, 2003 03:22 PM |
|
|
War on Iraq?
oh, is that what you call Invasion?
...next time, try to make a poll with different options... then you will see what people trully think...
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted March 27, 2003 03:41 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I DO NOT agree with u!
sept for Hudson,I dun see what he means,so I'm not disagreeing.
I meant that removing Hussain was justified, but I don't think blasting Iraq with missiles and bombs and then invading it was the best option we could have taken...
Quote:
If u say the Iraquis are innocent peeps and shouldn't suffer from it,well I say:Saddam is a fundamentalist ruler,right?So,his followers are fanatics!If Saddam says:blow up this village,his men rush to do so!So I say,the Iraqui ppl are NOT all that innocent!
True, but those that are not his followers do not deserve to die do they? How can you tell what percentage follow him and what don't?
|
|
silx87
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted March 27, 2003 03:55 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I meant that removing Hussain was justified, but I don't think blasting Iraq with missiles and bombs and then invading it was the best option we could have taken...
Well,I agree with that.But if not invasion,what other solution would u propose?I mean,he doesn't actually listen to the UN!Diplomacy isn't actually working here!
Quote:
True, but those that are not his followers do not deserve to die do they? How can you tell what percentage follow him and what don't?
I guess we don't know that.Yeap,those who don't follow him are easily mistaken for his own soldiers,cuz his soldiers wear normal clothing,not uniforms,so its hard to tell!But then again,that's xactly what I'd do in that kinda situation.
____________
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted March 27, 2003 05:19 PM |
|
|
Assasination, supported rebellion amongst his people, concerted diplomacy through unified action (highly unlikely given the franco/german attitude) etc etc.
Quote:
But then again,that's xactly what I'd do in that kinda situation.
This is a most interesting point. Whilst crucifying Hussain's men for dressing up as civilians we would do well to remember that this has long been a special forces tactic in times of war. Whilst criticising his defense of towns we would do well to remember that this is the sole option his out-matched army has left. No-one rushes to crucify the russians for their defence of stalingrad or leningrad in WWII, yet when Hussain uses these tactics it's "barbaric" and "utterly against the geneva convention". When america holds prisoners they claim (note claim, little proof has EVER been offered) are Al Queada members and publish photographs of them, treat them to a form of torture (sense deprivation) and keep them in poor conditions it's considered humane... When Hussain shows pictures of them it's "parading", when they are asked their names and why they want to kill Iraquis it's "degrading or torturing" them and the conditions they get kept in are "barbaric".....
Please, lets at least some of us ATTEMPT to be unbiased here.....
|
|
silx87
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted March 27, 2003 05:51 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Assasination, supported rebellion amongst his people, concerted diplomacy through unified action (highly unlikely given the franco/german attitude) etc etc.
Yeap,that's one way.But supported rebellion?Saddam won't hesitate to use a chem weapon on them again!Though I'm not sure he has any,it is quite likely.
Quote:
This is a most interesting point. Whilst crucifying Hussain's men for dressing up as civilians we would do well to remember that this has long been a special forces tactic in times of war. Whilst criticising his defense of towns we would do well to remember that this is the sole option his out-matched army has left. No-one rushes to crucify the russians for their defence of stalingrad or leningrad in WWII, yet when Hussain uses these tactics it's "barbaric" and "utterly against the geneva convention". When america holds prisoners they claim (note claim, little proof has EVER been offered) are Al Queada members and publish photographs of them, treat them to a form of torture (sense deprivation) and keep them in poor conditions it's considered humane... When Hussain shows pictures of them it's "parading", when they are asked their names and why they want to kill Iraquis it's "degrading or torturing" them and the conditions they get kept in are "barbaric".....
I never said it was bad that they've been doin that!
I actually think its the best thing to do in a situation like that!I don't think its barbaric!I actually think its kinda smart!Its something against which the Americans did not prepare for!So its their own mistake if they get killed b'cuz of that!
Also,I don't think Americans should not be complaining that Iraquis are toruring their soldiers if they are not better thereselves!If they do it themselves and its okay,how come its bad when Iraquis do it?
Quote:
Please, lets at least some of us ATTEMPT to be unbiased here.....
I'm trying realy hard.I think I'm doin pretty good.
____________
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted March 27, 2003 06:22 PM |
|
|
Sorry mate, should have specified who I meant, mainly people like Katino, or Dargon's recent comments in the other Iraq thread about "barbaric actions by a barbaric regime"
Quote:
Saddam won't hesitate to use a chem weapon on them again!Though I'm not sure he has any,it is quite likely. Quote:
Perhaps, perhaps not, we'll never tell will we?
Quote:
If they do it themselves and its okay,how come its bad when Iraquis do it?
Because most people have a very selective memory when it comes to criticism of other nations actions (myself sometimes included)
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
|
posted March 27, 2003 09:23 PM |
|
|
In my opinion, a war or violence can never be justified, not even as an answer to other violence. This is a personal statement however and I do not wish to debate about who is right and who is wrong with this post. I've read strong and valuable arguements pro, and against the war. Everyone has the right to have and formulate his/her own opinion. What I will do, is list my concerns about this war and the way I think things will evolve after the war is over.
My belief is that the American and British troops will succeed in conquering Iraq and dethroning Sadam. Unfortunately, I think losses on the allied side will be horrific. Hundreds of GI's will find their deaths in and around Bagdad leaving families and children behind at home in the US.
Hundreds, and maybe thousands of Iraqui civilians will get killed. Many more will be disabled for life. Whole villages will be homeless, have no access to water, electricity! A humanitarian disaster...
Due to the unimaginably high costs connected to this war, the US will not be able to assist in providing the resources necessary to rebuild Iraq. I sincerely hope that the UN will agree on coughing up that money or many more Iraqui people will suffer in the months and years after the war.
About the downfall of Sadam... I must agree that I have a strong feeling of disgust when I think about this man and the way he puts his ideas into practice. Objectively seen I'd say why the hell didn't anyone do something earlier to get him out of there!? But... there's a great danger connected to the removal of Saddam and the Baad party (tribe). I believe that all the other tribes in Iraq, who are now unified under Saddam, will start competing with each other violently to seize power. Also, it is not unlikely that foreign nations like Iran will see an opportunity to claim a part of Iraq for themselves. The oil riches in Iraq are impressive (11% of the world's oil if I'm not mistaking), and so are the number of people/groups who wish to profit from those. If my fears come true, though I really hope I'm wrong about this, then Iraq will know many long years of chaos after the war, and terrorism will be more rule than exception. Far worse than it is today under Sadam's dictatorship.
To summarize, what does this war bring the world:
x Less freedom for the American people: Peaceful protesters are put into jail or hammered into hospital by the police (freedom of speech anyone?) - Al Jazeira has been forbidden to broadcast in the US (freedom of speech anyone?) - All Muslims or Arab looking people are treated like criminals by authorities, even if they're US citizens... - Boycotting French products just because the French government disagrees with the Bush administration? Some 30% or more of the French people DO support this war, these actions harm them as well. And why would a foreign nation not be allowed to have a different opinion on something? (freedom of speech anyone?)
x Ridiculously high costs: That money could have been spent on health care, education, road infrastructure, tax reduction, aid for the starving in the third world, ...
x Thousands of innocent people will die or be handicapped for life, a tragedy... Immense amounts of humanitarian help will be required to try to save what there's left to save.
x Possible destabilization of the middle east region and certainly of Iraq itself. A real chance on more terrorist activity and violations of human rights.
x Tremendous loss of power of the UN. (Imagine what would happen if China would say Russia for instance was a threat to them and decided to attack... They both have nuclear weapons... If the USA can do it, what stops the other nations in the UN from following that example?).
So I'd say no! This war is a grave error. Even if some good comes from it, the disadvantages outnumber the advantages by much. From every possible angle I look at it, it always looks like a terribly bad idea.
|
|
goodpig
Adventuring Hero
The King of Pork!!!
|
|
posted March 29, 2003 01:25 AM |
|
|
You guys have good points but...
Saddam is a madman! He kills his own people.
He captured members of the allied forces, killed them, then he showed the murders on Iraqi TV.
(Well... We bombed his telecommunications towers today so he will not have much Iraqi TV left) but the point is we have to stop this madman. Assasination might work but he has many doubles it would be hard~ So we have to go in there and get Saddam.
And it is not like the Iraqis have no idea what hit him. We have given him time and time again to disarm and leave the country but he w'ont do it.
So yeah I think the allied forces are justified.
____________
Qui n'a plus qu'un moment a vivre N'a plus rien a dissimuler.
Atys
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted March 29, 2003 02:18 AM |
|
|
Quote:
He captured members of the allied forces, killed them, then he showed the murders on Iraqi TV.
I hate to be a fly in the ointment here, but most of these early accusations of executions and torture have yet to be even remotely proved. To take an example, Tony Blair stated at the conference in america that Hussain's army had captured and executed 2 british soldiers and the evidence for this assumption was a broadcast by Al Jazera. When said broadcast was investigated it showed no executions, merely the bodies being kicked and punched*. Pretty soon after when questions were asked to ministers below the PM none of them would discuss whether it was an execution or not, none would even say if it was being investigated. So what we have is Britian's PM making a blatantly emotional statement that smacks frankly of propaganda based on absolutely nothing at all, then hastily retracting the statement or refusing to confirm it later when questioned...
Or take the recent report coming from outside Basra that an American/British column had met over 100 Iraqui tanks abbandoning the city. Britain's own Defence Minister was shocked to hear this news report as his own MOD hadn't even told him! When it was investigated later it was discovered the true figure was 3 Iraqui tanks.....
What happened to the notion that this would be a war without either misinformation or propaganda?
*A note here, I do not add that sentence in terms of justifying the actions of the mob in the broadcast. Unfortunately mobs fuelled with hatred from their years of bombing and sanctions will nearly always react with violence when an enemy is present that they can harm, as seems to have happened in this clip. Imagine if you will if it was 10th september 2002 and someone put and announced 2 members (confirmed) of the Al Queada terrorist network in the middle of an american city, the reaction would be pretty much the same IMO, they would have been beaten also, even beyond death.... Mobs are the same the world over unfortunately. 
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
|
|
posted March 29, 2003 04:24 AM |
|
|
Quote:
What happened to the notion that this would be a war without either misinformation or propaganda?
Never hoped for it, because it never happened and never will. Misinformation and propaganda is what governments are all about, without it they are quite powerless.
____________
|
|
Silx87
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted March 29, 2003 11:32 AM |
|
|
Quote:
He captured members of the allied forces, killed them, then he showed the murders on Iraqi TV.
Well,I heard of it,but has this been proven?
Americans don't treat they're POW like royalti either!
I'm not saying its okay to beat or shoot someone.
Though I agree that Saddam has a problem and should be removed!Face it ppl,right now,there isn't much other choice than war!Assassination would be ne,but its gonna be hard with Saddam's doubles and all.And,as Hudson stated,an uprising by the Iraquis,but that would be bad for the ppl,if Saddam has chem weapons.
____________
|
|
madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
|
|
posted March 29, 2003 11:55 AM |
|
|
If this war/invasion is justified, does it mean that 9-11 is henceforth justified too?
My answer is NO, a big one.
Any kind of violence directed at civilians no matter what the reasons are - ! liberation from a tyrant ! or terrorism - cannot be justified by any means.
____________
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted March 29, 2003 12:55 PM |
|
|
Quote:
When Hussain shows pictures of them it's "parading", when they are asked their names and why they want to kill Iraquis it's "degrading or torturing" them and the conditions they get kept in are "barbaric".....
Have you seen the video of the prisoners that he killed? The ones that he* sexually mutilated? The ones that he pulled down there pants and shot them in the head? That is what they are talking about when they say things like "degrading or torturing" and "barbaric". I am sure we don't do that to our prisoners, if I am wrong please tell me and give me proof.
Quote:
lets at least some of us ATTEMPT to be unbiased here.....
And you tell us to be unbiased. Get the whole story first and you will see that we are not biased. I don't know as much about the British POW's.
*When I say he I mean Saddam's Henchmen
____________
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted March 29, 2003 01:08 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Have you seen the video of the prisoners that he killed? The ones that he* sexually mutilated?
Nope, this war or last? Got any links? You'll forgive me for wishing proof when the current list of provable accusations is more than a little dubious.
Quote:
I am sure we don't do that to our prisoners, if I am wrong please tell me and give me proof.
I know a number of people who were in the army in korea and Suez and other minor conflicts since then, and I can assure you that actions like that are certainly not rare amongst "civilised" armies especially amongst front line troops. No videos here, but from talking to veterans of these wars I assure you both british and american troops do have the capacity for such barbaric acts sometimes. Quite whether things have changed since I do not know, somehow I doubt it though.
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
| |
|
|
