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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Structures in the town in Heroes 5
Thread: Structures in the town in Heroes 5
Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 30, 2003 07:08 PM

Structures in the town in Heroes 5

I had a few ideas about the town structures in HoMM 4. Now I have expanded them and thought of a few more. Here they are:
My main idea is about the creature dwellings. In Heroes 4 there are no upgrades but you can choose between two dwellings for each level. However, what if in each level one of the two choices is a shooter or spellcaster? Then you can have an army consisting of shooters and spellcasters only. I think there should be a restriction which can make you use different types of creatures. Let's accept that there will be 6 levels. Then for each level there should be THREE different creature dwellings. But you can build only one of them! Let's divide them into three types: A (dwelling for shooters/spellcasters), B (dwelling for flyers) and C (dwelling for walkers). For each level there is an A building, a B building and a C building. Like in Heroes 4, building one of them locks the other two.
But, as you have noticed, that won't prevent people from choosing the A type for each level. So there will be one more, really important restriction: when you build a certain type of creature dwelling for one level, the same type of creature dwelling for the next level becomes locked! So if you get a level 3 flyer, you can't get a level 4 flyer!!!
This way you'll be able to get a maximum of 3 creatures from the same type. I think this will balance the game.
But it doesn't restrict too much! If you don't want any walkers in your army, no problem - choose the sequence (from level 1 to level 6) ABABAB or BABABA and you'll have 3 shooters/spellcasters and 3 flyers. But this is not the same as 6 flyers!
There will be enough freedom, I believe. Although you can't try all the possibilities (for example, ABBACC), there are CABACB, BCACBC... Many, many different strategies!
And if you want a definite creature to be in your army at all costs, just plan carefully your buiding manner. If this creature is a level 4 shooter, then you simply have to build a level 3 walker or flyer. And this will mean that you won't be able to have the level 5 shooter/spellcaster...
So there will be 18 creatures in each town and you'll only have 6 of them...
Actually, should you be able to recruit all the three level 1 creatures, like in HoMM 4? I don't think so. First, they are not too useful, and second, then you'll have 8 creatures from each town. That's too much...
Now probably the biggest problem. How can there be 18 creatures in each town? And won't this mean that there would be too few towns? Well, haven't we suggested here, in Heroes Community, thousands of creatures? In Age of Wonders there are 12 races with 12 creatures. But with so many creatures probably there won't be too big difference between them...
But why not, actually? Like there are thousands of suggestions for creatures, there are hundreds of suggestions for creature specialities! And something else - you are able to recruit just one third from each town. This suggests even further diversity. In fact, it would be really difficult to fight an army with exactly the same creatures as yours!
Something else about the creature dwellings - I want the resources required for building them to be made in such a way that you don't have to use one and the same resource too often. For example, for level 3 structure A will require wood and ore, structure B - crystal and structure C - gems while for level 4 structure A will require sulphur, structure B - wood and a small amount of mercury and structure C - ore and a small amount of gems... Of course, they might change the resources in the new game but anyway I think my idea is a fair one because it's not good to need huge amounts of a specific resource for one town (for example, it was really hard to build both the Cyclops Cave and Behemoth Lair in the Stronghold town in HoMM 3).
That's about the creature dwellings. Now we come to something else - the Mage Guild. It has 5 levels. I have always imagined a 6th level, for which there are only a few spells but they will be extremely powerful... And, of course, it won't be easy to build that Mage Guild Level 6. Especially if they include another building...
It's the Spy Guild. It's something like a brother of the Mage Guild but it doesn't teach you spells. It teaches you some special abilities. For example, Disguise or Assassination or something like that... This suggests that like there are Spellbooks, there would be Spybooks... The Spy Guild may have 3 levels. First level - simple tricks, second level - good ones and third level - the strongest ones.
But you won't be able to develop the two Guilds separately - they will be in a relation. You will be allowed to build Mage Guild Level 4 and Spy Guild Level 1. But after that there are three possibilities - build the Mage Guild up to level 6 and leave the Spy Guild at level 1, leave the Mage Guild at level 4 and build the Spy Guild up to level 3, or build one more level for both - up to level 5 and 2, respectively. That's because you'll have to decide which to develop more - magic or espionage...
These are my most important suggestions but there are some more:
Perhaps each type of terrain can be associated with a certain resource. In the town there will be a building - Land Cultivator or something like that - which extracts a resource from the associated terrain that is placed UNDER the town! So there will be more interaction with the terrain... But there is a problem - what if there is more than one type of terrain under the town? Well... it would be good to see what you think. Now I can think of two things - you'll extract from the terrain that occupies the bigger part of the area under the town or the central tile of this area will be determining... Or maybe you should be asked which of the types of terrain to cultivate?
Then an improvement of the Castle - Traps. It's something like the Land Mine spell, but a structure. When there is a town siege, some traps causing damage will be placed on the battlefield. However, only the attackers will be harmed - if the defenders walk over the traps, nothing will happen! Why? Because this is a building that is supposed to help the town, after all!
I'm also thinking of a Seer's Hut in the town itself. Isn't it logical that you should receive quests in your town? They will change weekly or monthly and will be the same for all of your towns. Then why should you have more than one? Because when you fulfill the task, you'll be able to go to your nearest town to receive the prize!
Since I want Espionage to be implemented, maybe there should also be a structure that protects the town from spying activities...
Another idea - a building that makes building other structures easier! I guess this means reducing the required resources for other structures. Of course, it won't be easy to build this building - there should be some requirements and I don't mean only other buildings. Maybe even definite hero skills or an artifact...
Since there is a Shipyard there can also be an Airshipyard. I know, this means that there will be Airships... But they won't be creatures - they will have the same functions as Ships and everyone will be able to use them. They will be much more expensive than Ships and won't be so powerful - they won't be able to go over mountains! But since they are in the air, it won't be possible to build an Airshipyard in a town that is in the Underground level...
Finally, something about the Prison. I don't know whether it should exist in Heroes 5 but if it does, it may work similar to the Thieves Guild. If there is a captured hero in the Prison, you'll be able to visit him/her and he'll give you information like the Thieves Guild does, but only for HIS alignment. The more heroes from that alignment you have captured, the more information you'll receive...
Well, I think that's it. I can always make up other structures but these are enough for now. I would like to know what you think of these suggestions... And why don't you give others as well?

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Lordskeleton
Lordskeleton


Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
posted March 31, 2003 04:51 PM

Quote:
Let's accept that there will be 6 levels. Then for each level there should be THREE different creature dwellings. But you can build only one of them! Let's divide them into three types: A (dwelling for shooters/spellcasters), B (dwelling for flyers) and C (dwelling for walkers). For each level there is an A building, a B building and a C building. Like in Heroes 4, building one of them locks the other two.
But, as you have noticed, that won't prevent people from choosing the A type for each level. So there will be one more, really important restriction: when you build a certain type of creature dwelling for one level, the same type of creature dwelling for the next level becomes locked! So if you get a level 3 flyer, you can't get a level 4 flyer!!!
This way you'll be able to get a maximum of 3 creatures from the same type. I think this will balance the game.
But it doesn't restrict too much!


To keep on my merely complaining non-constructive path: Well that's the paradox of balancing. The uniqueness of each town adds to the gameplay, and the balance fights abuses and "best-castle" issues. If you make it that each tier in each town has three options, same everywhere, I'd feel that it wouldn't matter which town I picked. I actually enjoy changing my playing style after the possibilities given instead of changing the possibilities to match my playing style. Sure, balance is important, but still I believe a well composed and somewhat "logic" (Death to the Dreadnagagolemelemental recruited in the hall of mechanized infantry) town (god bless the elves), outweigh the advantages of a balanced game with similar towns. Well, I guess this probably qualifies as a
Single player - Multi player issue.
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jondifool
jondifool


Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
posted March 31, 2003 10:02 PM

Greetings
Hmm just lost a long feedback to a comp chrash!
So this is short

I agree with lord skeleton that there is a big danger that the themes of towns are lost in the multiple options a lot off creatures give

You and Lord Skeleton gave me an Idea about how to solve that. I have to rewrite it.Posting it later

A lot of interesting thoughts
resources in you 18 creatures idea could be resolved more simply! Either all lvl 3 in a town cost the same or all off the same kind cost the same. First chice makes the balancing of town on map more easy, the second makes special builds (like ABABAB) a more expensive!

with regards
Jondifool
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jondifool
jondifool


Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
posted March 31, 2003 11:10 PM bonus applied.

The Idea

greetings
Sorry wyvern to hijack the tread with this idea, but it was from you and Lord skeleton posts I got the inspiration!

Problem:
How to make have a lot off different creatures choises in towns and still let towns have there uniqness and induvidual themes, not making them all the same!

Idea:
A new structure in a town: The creature developer!
Funktion a litle like a mageguild with lvls.
Each lvl to develop a new creature ability!
Thesse to be uniqe for each town type. And to be assigned free (and 1 only) to each creature. And with free choise to what ability to assign to each creature! But once assign the ability are spend and the town can not redo that!

exsample:
a nature town structure could develop abilitys like
+1 speed, + 20 % increassed growth, a jump spell, 20% magic resistance, hatred to nonliving, a summon spell , regrowth. and so on
Now the player would develop his structure and assign 1 of thesse ability to his lvl 1 (maybe 20% the magic resistance to sprites ) , another to his lvl 2 creature and so on!

death could have something like "curse, fear, reanimation, insubstential, paralyse, againg, hatread against living to distribute!
and so on with a strong theme for each town

effect:
Each town would have the same creatures and the same effects, but how they where combined would differ !
The skilled player would maybe hold back some cruical assigns until knowing what opponent he is facing! Depending on maps certain choises would be more tempting than others

implamentation:
on battlefield
the easy way would be to have an ability "rune" flashing over the creature, with a bottom to turn it on and off.
The nice way would be to make animations for each, so in effect having 6 subspices for each creature. I am asumming 6 lvls for creatures and 6 abilitys to assign! There could offcause also be more.

in town.
I am unsure if it should funktion as an upgrade (like homm3) or a general change of the creature type to immidiatly effect all creatures you have of that kind !(I see a posible problem with same town number 2 in both cases).
The structure proberly needs to work like that a lvl 4 creature can first get an ability assigned when having 4  lvls developed even though its free wich off them to assign!

on map.
neutral creatures can give some surprises now with an unexpected ability. (the abilty maybe to be overuled if stack are joining and army have troops of that kind)

reflektions:
I think if such an idea should work, the effect off the abilitys needs to be really small! Something like an overall 10% to 20% improvement in creature performance.
As this should only add flavor to the game , not overshadow the rest off the game mechanics! I still want that creatures should come with all their normal special abilitys as they would be boring without!  

adding such special abilitys could also be a skill heroes have , but I see no reason for complicate heroes build with that! Also there is a posibility to really add a theme to each town, as possible abilitys is plentyfull!

Thesse abilityes needs some good balance so there should be a lot of different pathes to take, and not just dealing with "the 1 always best way" making it a simple upgrade system.

But if such a system was working , we could have some neverending discussions here on how to assign abillitys!
(drools )

Any comments?

with regards
Jondifool

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Lordskeleton
Lordskeleton


Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
posted April 01, 2003 03:45 PM
Edited By: Lordskeleton on 1 Apr 2003

I would rather see that the building alternatives were enriched even more. That's probably since I'm somewhat of a grandiose nerd.

My own wish would be that all creatures in mythology would be able to battle in the game. Also, I doubt Wolves, Elementals, skeletons, undead in general, sprites, elves, behemoths, nightmares, crusaders, angels, fairy dragon, phoenix as well as any other creature/individual with a somewhat sense of duty or love to their homeland, will to survive etc.
(- The undead are coming to destroy all life! Rally the angels. - Sir, the angels refuse to save us cause you haven't paid their salary) would crave money to defend themselves in case of war. I believe that angels would be a gift or a blessing rather than recruited soldiers. That goes for a lot of creatures actually. In the Haven what are you paying for really? their training? How can that cost anything? Should their castle be threatened i believe the swordmasters would train the people for free but, I don't know. Maybe the people's of Axeoth are extremely greedy...

And the Necromancers what are their salary? 3£ a skelly or what?
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Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2003 06:06 PM bonus applied.

Lordskeleton - well, of course I also want the towns to be unique! Why do you think that if in every town there are 3 possibilities for each level, the towns would be the same? Only the mechanism is the same! It was the same in Heroes 3 and 4. In HoMM 3 there were 7 levels with upgrades for each town. In HoMM 4 there were 4 levels with two possibilities for each town. Does that mean that the towns were the same?
My idea is that all the creatures in the town will be different but will belong to the theme of the particular town, which will be different from the theme of the other towns! The difference between the creatures from two different towns will be greater than between creatures for one and the same town! And so it WILL matter which town you choose...
jondifool - first about your resource idea. I also thought of buildings from the same type requiring one and the same resource... But then I came to the same conclusion as you - after all, you will have to build two structures from at least 2 of the 3 building types and so you will need a big amount of the same resource. And the other idea - all the 3 dwellings from one and the same level to require the same resources - in my opinion this will remove a big part of the uniqueness. And don't forget that sometimes you might want not to build one of the dwellings if you don't have the resource required. But if all the 3 structures require this resource, what will you do? So I still think my solution is good enough - each building will require different resources. And you will have different strategies depending on which resources you have at the moment.
Now about your new structure idea. I hope I have understood correctly: this building contains 6 abilities - one for each level. And you choose which ability to assign to which level.
This is a good idea! But a little difficult to implement it. These abilities have to be ones that none of the 18 creatures in the town has. Each of them has to suit all the 18 creatures AND be different from all abilities for the other towns...
But it becomes complicated when you have more than one town of the same type. If in the other town you have assigned a different ability to the level 1 creatures and you decide to merge the two stacks? Since they have different abilities, they won't be able to be merged! Oh, and neither stack will be able to be merged with a stack of the same type of creature that hasn't received any special ability (for example, if it's recruited in a town where the Creature Developer hasn't been built). Do you think it should be so? Or do you have other suggestions?
Anyway, I agree that these special abilities shouldn't have a really big effect but should be something like a nice addition. The creatures from the different towns will be unique even without them (and, as I said, they should differ from each other as well so that there will be point in choosing an A, B or C building for each level).
Now I think of another situation - if you capture an enemy town and the enemy has already assigned the special abilities... Then you will have to put up with that and recruit creatures with the abilities the enemy has given to them, even though you might want to distribute them in a different way. But I guess this is fair - since the enemy has paid to build this structure, he has to have the final say about its use!
Lordskeleton - you are right. When your town is attacked, everyone in the town will defend it without asking about money! But... there have been many discussions about the unrealism in the Heroes series. After all, this is not a real world and you can't expect everything to be logical. The most important thing is to enjoy the game!

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jondifool
jondifool


Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
posted April 01, 2003 09:23 PM

Greetings Wywern:

First a note on the resource solution in your idea! I like the struggle to get the resources needed. I like the carefull gamebalance making each town different to kickstart on each specific map. Giving to many different choises I see it as we might loose that. Therefore I like it better if towns are remembered as the one needing a lot of wood/crystal and not good on map X and that like! So therefore I like most a solution where A B and C building on lvl x cost the same!

Now about towns being unique.
I don't agree to your logic about difference in town. More creature choises does not need to make towns different!

If the freedom of build becomes so big as your 18 creature idea suggest wouldn't we then have the problem that an army of flyers/shooters from, say Order would be much more like any other towns armys off flyer/shooters and less like an Order Build of mainly walkers. And then we have lost the uniqeness off towns to that off playstyle/armybuild. And this could still happend even with a very developed theme to each town! So if sticking to the 18 creature idea , we are going to be really carefull when choosing what special ability the creatures going to have! As to many choises between flyer/walker/shooter might ruin the themes importance!

When I wrote about the structure idea I was thinking of it as a different solution to making towns unique, than puting 18 creatures in each game. So I was thinking of staying with 6 creatures (and a carefull flyer/walker/shooter balance ) instead of 12 or 18. (by the way thats why I wrote sorry for hijacking the thread!! ). But when looking at 2 such option put together the game is going to be really complicated! proberly it would be safer to stick to 1 or the other for game balance!

Now about the problem my idea  creates : "same creature type with different ability" and how it blend into an army!
I see two ways to handle it!

First is to let all  secondary town /Joined/external dwellings creatures you get rewert to the choise in your main town! When first choosing an ability to a creature all future creature to be put under your service would be off that kind. Best solution IMO. (they could in some cases be normal and needed to be "upgraded in town")

Another solution would be to have a "hillfort" like option in town(or as a hero skill) to changes creatures ability!
I think of the transfered abilitys as a "rune" like blessing wich then can be changed in town.
But I don't want too much micromanagement in the game!
And getting armys around to change abillitys would create that!

with regards
Jondifool
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Lordskeleton
Lordskeleton


Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
posted April 01, 2003 09:43 PM

Quote:


If the freedom of build becomes so big as your 18 creature idea suggest wouldn't we then have the problem that an army of flyers/shooters from, say Order would be much more like any other towns armys off flyer/shooters and less like an Order Build of mainly walkers. And then we have lost the uniqeness off towns to that off playstyle/armybuild. And this could still happend even with a very developed theme to each town! So if sticking to the 18 creature idea , we are going to be really carefull when choosing what special ability the creatures going to have! As to many choises between flyer/walker/shooter might ruin the themes importance!




Head on the nail.
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Lord_Woock
Lord_Woock


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
posted April 01, 2003 10:39 PM

Can't we stick to what was in HoMM1? Each town has 6 creatures, each of different level, no upgrading?
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted April 01, 2003 10:44 PM

Hi, all. I'll just share my views on the initial post.

Quote:
Let's accept that there will be 6 levels. Then for each level there should be THREE different creature dwellings. But you can build only one of them! Let's divide them into three types: A (dwelling for shooters/spellcasters), B (dwelling for flyers) and C (dwelling for walkers). For each level there is an A building, a B building and a C building. Like in Heroes 4, building one of them locks the other two.
But, as you have noticed, that won't prevent people from choosing the A type for each level. So there will be one more, really important restriction: when you build a certain type of creature dwelling for one level, the same type of creature dwelling for the next level becomes locked! So if you get a level 3 flyer, you can't get a level 4 flyer!!!


I agree with Jondifool and Lord Skelly that it will be extremely hard to maintain any sense of uniqueness or/and diverse themes to the different towns. I think it's a good idea, just too difficult to carry through.

Quote:

Something else about the creature dwellings - I want the resources required for building them to be made in such a way that you don't have to use one and the same resource too often.


I don't necessarily agree on this either. I think it's nice when certain towns depend more on one type of mineral than the others. To illustrate with a bit of a simple example, say to a desert town (not that there will or should be anything like this in HOMMV, just to serve as an example), water (not saying that this will or should be... well, hopefully you've got it by now)is vital, while to the Snow town, water is in abundance, while they desperately need sand to make windows or something.

OK, that was an extremely lame example, but what I'm trying to say is that different societies will have different needs, and I think it's a nice touch that Tower needs lots of gems, for instance.

Quote:
Now we come to something else - the Mage Guild. It has 5 levels. I have always imagined a 6th level, for which there are only a few spells but they will be extremely powerful... And, of course, it won't be easy to build that Mage Guild Level 6. Especially if they include another building...
It's the Spy Guild. But you won't be able to develop the two Guilds separately - they will be in a relation.


I think you'll have to elaborate more on this idea before I can make up my mind as to whether or not it is a good one. I'm having a hard time picturing what espionage skills would be good enough to give up that superpowerful level 6 spell. I'm having a hard time picturing enough different and interesting spy skills to fill three levels with, actually.

Quote:

Perhaps each type of terrain can be associated with a certain resource. In the town there will be a building - Land Cultivator or something like that - which extracts a resource from the associated terrain that is placed UNDER the town!


This, I think is an excellent idea. A very neat variation on the magic pond from the Nature town in HOMMIII.

Quote:

Then an improvement of the Castle - Traps. It's something like the Land Mine spell, but a structure. When there is a town siege, some traps causing damage will be placed on the battlefield. However, only the attackers will be harmed - if the defenders walk over the traps, nothing will happen! Why? Because this is a building that is supposed to help the town, after all!


I think it's easy justifying why the defending troops won't get hurt; they know what to do not to spring the traps! But the idea itself, I'm not so sure of. What makes this a strategic addition to the game? If it's too effective, it'l just be something everyone does, and if it's too unremarkable, it won't make any difference.

I'll get back to the rest later.

Dixi
DonGio
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 02, 2003 10:29 AM

Good to see you back, Wyvern :)



While structures haven’t been the most important element throughout the history of the Heroes Series, they play a very large role-probably the largest role in control over the adventure map. But, in towns, they hold a greater importance. One of the problems with Heroes IV towns was that they were not unique, not only in look, but in structures, too.

“However, what if in each level one of the two choices is a shooter or spellcaster?”

I admit, this was a problem, but only when there was only a level 1 or level 2 shooter available. But, if like the Necropolis, where the only shooter is at level 3, then it is just a matter of making the right decision to suit the situation, which can also be seen as a strategic decision. So, I don’t mind the issue too much.

“Then for each level there should be THREE different creature dwellings. But you can build only one of them! Let's divide them into three types: A (dwelling for shooters/spellcasters), B (dwelling for flyers) and C (dwelling for walkers).”

This sounds promising. What you are saying here is that you have a greater choice range throughout the levels. And you still only end up with the 6 creatures for the levels, but for a greater choice of combination. This is a good idea, and because you are able to get a selection of all three creature types, it is your own fault if you pick the wrong one, not the fault of availability. Two problems I have with this layout are: Will all the structures be built on the same piece of land or not? If not, what will happen to the spare areas inside the castle? Will they be left blank? The second is; if you are giving people the chance to choose from all three creatures, aren’t you ‘spoon-feeding’ them a bit?

“So if you get a level 3 flyer, you can't get a level 4 flyer!!!”

Yes this is a very good inclusion. It does increase the level of strategy (which is what I strive for), and would prevent people from overloading their army will all flyers or shooters, like you said.

“But it doesn't restrict too much! If you don't want any walkers in your army, no problem”

Hmmmm. I don’t think that is a good idea. In order for this to work properly, I think there needs to be at least one of each creature type, since it gets too one sided with all of the army on opposite sides of the battlefield. So, I would think that every type has to be included in your army, without exceptions. If you are going to give them all three choices, one would think you would need to give them some hard choices, too.

“If this creature is a level 4 shooter, then you simply have to build a level 3 walker or flyer.”

This is another good part of your idea. One will have to plan ahead in order to get what he/she wants. This sort of strategy did not play a part in Heroes IV, and I think it will fit quite nicely into Heroes V.

“So there will be 18 creatures in each town and you'll only have 6 of them...”

That sounds good, because I sure don’t want all 18! One query here is that you may be overstocking the towns with 18 creatures per town, and would maybe not be able to fill all 8 towns, which would equal 144 creatures in the game-without upgrades if there are any. (Which I hope there are)

“should you be able to recruit all the three level 1 creatures, like in HoMM 4? I don't think so.”

Nope. I agree here. It will also upset the number of recruitable creatures, 6.

“But with so many creatures probably there won't be too big difference between them...”

Hmmm. I’m not too sure if NWC will want to make 144 creatures, and having 18 in each town. But I have a fair amount of confidence that all creatures will be unique, and have their own specialties, etc. The aspect I’m worried about is the number of creatures that are the ones like ‘Evil Sorceress and Goblin Knight’. Instead, I would much rather original creatures, which are from different types of mythologies, (such as Greek Norse, Egyptian, etc.) with maybe 20 of NWC creations out of the 144.

“For example, for level 3 structure A will require wood and ore, structure B - crystal and structure C - gems while for level 4 structure A will require sulphur, structure B - wood and a small amount of mercury and structure C - ore and a small amount of gems...”

Yes, I see your point here, but the town all have their specific resource In which the player must use the most of. Asylum has their sulphur, stronghold has their crystal, academy has their gems, and so on. So, it is not too bad an idea, because there should be some variation in other minerals, but the capital resource should be included in about 50-60% of the structures in the castle.

“it was really hard to build both the Cyclops Cave and Behemoth Lair in the Stronghold town in HoMM 3).”

Yes, but Heroes III used a different upgrade system to what you’re suggesting. Your system allows more versatility, because you can see how much of that resource you have and how much you are getting, and decide what you are going to build around that. In Heroes III, you had a different choice in the structures you built.

“Isn't it logical that you should receive quests in your town? They will change weekly or monthly and will be the same for all of your towns.”

This seems like quite a good idea. I always thought it was logical to get a quest from a town, and also from the adventure map. But I think that the quests from the town and adventure map should entail different things. The adventure map quests can be for the benefit of the hero and his army, while the town can be the beneficiary for the town quest. Makes sense doesn’t it?

“a building that makes building other structures easier!”

Yes! A resource silo! Hehe. I think this needs to return from Heroes III, it was really good in providing the town with its premier resource. This should also be quite expensive just as it was in Heroes III.

“Since there is a Shipyard there can also be an Airshipyard.”

I think that’s pushing it a bit. A town should be a town, not a city. While I am for many unique structures, I think having too many structures would make towns maybe too important. Plus, I don’t think Airships were invented in the Heroes age, only in the late 1800’s to early 1900’s.

Second Post:

“My idea is that all the creatures in the town will be different but will belong to the theme of the particular town, which will be different from the theme of the other towns!”

Quite a good definition there. Christian said that the towns will no longer be based around magic…..possibly creatures? It has a possibility of working because they should all be from the same region-correct?

“Anyway, I agree that these special abilities shouldn't have a really big effect but should be something like a nice addition.”

I think the creatures should be unique by themselves, and the special ability is there only to aid the individuality. The creature should be seen as unique by its looks, attacks, and what its origin is.

Mr. Heroes II:

“Can't we stick to what was in HoMM1? Each town has 6 creatures, each of different level, no upgrading?”

I’m not sure if that will work in the very modern Heroes V. It will also mean that there are only 36 to 48 creatures, which will not sit very well with me and probably others. There needs to be diversity, and I think that deciding which creatures you want is the way to go.

I would agree with DonGio in almost everything he said there. It would be a bit difficult to have 144 creatures being all unique and having special abilities, etc. Also, I think what he is trying to say with the resources for the towns is that not only do the towns need to be unique with their buildings and creatures, but with their resources.

Thanks for posting those ideas, Wyvern. I will probably post later on this thread.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 02, 2003 09:58 PM

jondifool - well, my resource idea doesn't exclude your wish. For each town there could be a resource which is needed more than the rest - but still, in not such a great amount. Maybe the requirements for the buildings can be done in such a way that whatever you choose, you will need more of this specific resource than the others.
I know it won't be easy to have 18 creatures from a town that are different from all the creatures from other towns but it's not impossible! And just think of the gameplay of Heroes 5 if they manage to do that! I'm considering an ability that is different for all the towns and all the creatures from one town have it. Thus it surely won't be the same to play with different towns.
And I think that your idea about the Creature Developer can still be applied to the 18 creatures in the town. It will be complicated but it will be also very interesting - you have to choose 6 creatures from 18 different creatures in a town whose creatures are different than those of other towns and then you can make them even more different by giving them special abilities with this building (abilities that are different for each town) and each of this abilities can be given to a different creature from the town... This is what I call diversity! The number of strategies will be GREAT!
I like your ideas about the "same creature type with different ability". A buiding in the town or on the adventure map or a hero skill will work. But about all creatures having the speciality that you have chosen in your capital - no. You may want to have the same type of creatures but with different abilities - this could prove to be a good strategy.
Lord_Woock - well, I think think this aspect should be different in all the Heroes games. If it's the same as HoMM 1, why make a new game? There is nothing wrong with changing this as long as it works well.
DonGio - about the Spy Guild - I must admit it's not so easy to make up such spy skills but here are some suggestions: ability to kill enemy creatures without fighting; ability to cause different malicious effects to enemy creatures without fighting; ability to steal artifacts from enemy heroes without fighting; ability to make your enemy think that your army is from his alignment... Maybe one of the most powerful spy skills would be to cause revolt in an enemy town...
I'm glad you like the Land Cultivator idea. But what do you think about the case when there is more than one terrain type under your town?
I know it will be somehow pointless to have Traps if everyone can build them. But what if they are unique structure, typical for just one or a couple of towns?
In fact, all of my suggestions about structures can be either availabale for all towns or unique. But I guess most of them have to be unique as there are too many common buildings now!
ThE_HyDrA - I'm really happy to see your opinion!
I was also thinking whether the structures should be built on the same place. If so, it would be like in Heroes 4, where all the towns looked the same. So buildings A, B and C have to be on different locations in the town. Thus practically every town of the same type will look different! But you are right, the problem is what should happen to the spare areas. I guess there have to appear things that do nothing (like many of the objects on the adventure map) - flowers, rocks, etc. And they should suit the surroundings, of course!
I think there is nothing wrong with giving people the chance to choose between three creatures per level. This is democracy - they can do whatever they want as long as they don't break the rules (the rules here are: you can't have the same type of creature from two consecutive levels)!
Now probably the biggest problem. I have also thought about making the player build at least one dwelling from each type. However, this is really hard! My idea is simple to do - when you build a structure from type A, the same type of structure from the next level is locked! But how can you lock buildings in order to make people have A, B and C buildings?
The mechanism will be much more complicated in this case. I suppose something like: if you have built two dwellings from one type and two - from another, you are OBLIGED to build one from the third type! Which means that, if you don't want walkers in your army and so you build ABAB or BABA, your level 5 creature will be a walker! That's why you might be tempted to have a level 1 walker in order to be able to fill the stronger levels with shooters and flyers...
But I'm not sure whether such a complicated system would do better. Although I agree that this will increase the strategy element even more!
144 different creatures... This would be superb! I do hope they will be able to take many of them from mythologies but I wouldn't mind it if NWC also make up some of them... And I would really like it if they use creatures that WE have made up!
This capital resource that will be included in 50-60% is somehow similar to what I told jondifool - that there will be a resource that is required more than the others but there will still be variation. So we seem to agree on this point!
I think quests in town should be different from those on the adventure map, too. We have many similar ideas! I suppose you mean that when you complete a town quest, a structure in the town will be built as a reward? Maybe even increase the effect of some buildings? If that's your idea, I like it. However, I don't think it should be only that. I'm thinking of more RPG/quest direction of the Heroes series, for example, a quest in a town which can be completed after you go to take another quest in ANOTHER town...
I didn't actually mean Resource Silo when I was talking about a structure that makes building other structures easier... But since you mention it... Yes, the Resource Silo may return. But I don't know how well it will interfere with my Land Cultivator idea. If you can build both, that would be too much... Maybe one of them has to be unique for a certain town... Or even both?
The Airshipyard may also be a unique building! The Shipyard in Heroes 3 was also a unique building (not all the towns had it) but still everyone was able to use ships and they weren't creatures... Now this brings a question - should there be Airshipyards on the adventure map as well? Probably, especially if the map creator decides it's good for the gameplay of the map he creates... And Airships will be much more expensive than Ships.
To tell you the truth, even I'm not sure whether there should be Airships. But I would like to hear more opinions.
Christian? I must admit I have no information about HoMM 5 at all! But it would be good if the base of towns are creatures. Although magic could also have some influence on the uniqueness of the towns...
Michael - I actually haven't thought about that. Yes, it would be useful to discuss the Town Hall and Fort... But for now I can't say anything. Perhaps I'll comment on this later.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 02, 2003 11:26 PM
Edited By: Djive on 2 Apr 2003

My opinion on some of the things mentioned here.

3 creatures per level on all six levels.
For one thing... I don't think we will get more than four towns in that case, with no towns in any expansion. I'd be weary of this suggestion. The alternative is likely poor animation quality, poor creature names and so on.

I'd like to see some levels with only ONE choice. The creatures which really defines a town are not optional, they are mandatory to have. A rampart without elves is o Rampart, for instance. A necropolis without skeletons is no Necropolis.

I'd like to keep the number of creature offered in a town to the same between towns, and this number should probable be between 9 and 12 (assuming six levels). I'd like to see about 8-10 towns rather than only 4-5.

Resources for structures: The three lowest levels should only require gold, ore and wood, and very few precious resources if any. In other words, precious resources should not be an issue for these levels.

For the higher level dwellings they should mostly require say 2 out of the 4 precious resource. The way to favour which path to take is to have a resource silo as in Heroes 3, but allow a choice between two different types of resource silos.

For terrain I'd prefer to see a tie to which creature generators which can be built. Building for Ice Demons in the desert or for Nomads in Snow is not likely to attract many creatures of that type. (I made a topic about this some time ago so referring to it for further discussion on this.)

When it comes to the idea of giving creatures upgrades, I believe this is suitable as a global setting. It's not something which you should choose per city. Just too many bonuses to keep track of.

A more workable solution could be that when you construct a Capitol for a town type, you get to choose between say six bonuses, and this bonus remain throughout the game to whomever holds the Capitol. (And building a Capitol for one town type makes it imposible for any player to build another Capitol for the town type.) But lose the Capitol and you lose the bonus to the player who took it.

Another way to implement this (outside of towns) is to have this as a selectable bonus when you start a map. (And each player whould then get to select a similar bonus.)

The seer's hut, you already have a building which can work like this. The Tavern! A natural meeting place to get quests and so on. Adding the possibility for ssome minor quests in taverns is a nice idea.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 04, 2003 12:03 PM bonus applied.

Very creative ideas, Wyvern :)

I think it is really good to see many theories about the upgrade system and the town system in Heroes V because it is one of the integral parts. Where would we be without towns? Without creatures? In an RPG, I think. Wyvern's ideas are plentiful and elaborate, and we should be making the most if them, like we are at the moment. Keep it up.

Wyvern:

"ThE_HyDrA - I'm really happy to see your opinion!"

I am equally happy to see yours. After that Heroes IV beta thread, I have not been graced with your presence for some time in the Altar of Wishes.

"If so, it would be like in Heroes 4, where all the towns looked the same. So buildings A, B and C have to be on different locations in the town."

Yes it would look very similar to the Heroes IV layout, which, in my opinion, is unacceptable for Heroes V. The towns in Heroes V need to be unique and have their own character, by having the Heroes IV layout, it certainly eliminates any hopes of that. Yes, A, B, and C have to be set on different locations in the town. This would enable them to be in their natural environment, and blend in with the landscape.

"I guess there have to appear things that do nothing (like many of the objects on the adventure map) - flowers, rocks, etc. And they should suit the surroundings, of course!"

Yes, that idea did cross my mind, Wyvern, and should be implemented in your plan if the following idea doesn't work:
The idea, be it very complicated, has a possibility of working, I think. It is this: As you progress through the levels, there are decisions you have to make. As you know, you choose between the three, and you can't have two in a row. The spot that a certain structure will be built one (Hydra Pond for example), would leave the other two spots empty-correct? Now the complicated part: While the construction of the Hydra pond closes the opportunity to build the other two structures, it unlocks one or two other buildings which can be built in place. The buildings unlcoked will depends on what dwelling you choose. I.e, every structure unlocked in each level will be different, but you might be able to unlock the same ones in level 2 and 6 for example. This idea will interlock the creature structures, not only to themselves, but to the rest of the buidings in the town. The idea also works the other way, and it really depends on the prerequisites of the building you want to construct. When I say you unlock one or two, I mean that the area that you have left blank might be in a tree, and therefore not many things can fill the spot well. But what about the structures original spots you ask? There will be only a few designated spots for the structures. Then, instead of staying in one fixed spot, a tavern in one Chaos town might be in the hills, while in another chaos town it might be in a chasm. The only designated spots are for the creatures, shipyard, and castle, so they can blend into the environment, but all other structures can be moved around the map.
I just thought of the idea then, so it may have flaws. Maybe that is what Christian meant when he said the towns will be very different?

"think there is nothing wrong with giving people the chance to choose between three creatures per level."

Yes, I agree, while it is handing the player more options it could turn out to be harder because of the difficult decisions. It is a double edged sword, and I cannot make a definite opinion until I experience it myself.

"Which means that, if you don't want walkers in your army and so you build ABAB or BABA, your level 5 creature will be a walker!"

Hmmmm. I'm not sure about that. Because if you don't want the level 5 walker, and want the level six walker, you are punished for choosing the same ones on the previous four occassions. I think that my idea is probably easier. You can work on the tules of your upgrade system, but the town must include a walker, shooter/spellcaster, and a flyer, no matter what levels. I think if we take your above suggestion, it is slightly too restricted.

"144 different creatures... This would be superb!"

Yes, it would be.....Only if NWC found a way to make them unique in their own right. I am very willing to have 144 creatures, but not at the risk of redundancy. A point you make is that we have come up with multitudinous amounts of creatures over the ages, that is true, but I'm not sure if they are all entirely unique. But if NWC could get support from its fan-base to provide creature ideas, it might be feasible. But both you and I hope NWC can come up with 144 unique creatures. It will give the game a great deal more diversity.

Djive:

"The alternative is likely poor animation quality, poor creature names and so on."

Yes, that is certainly a possibility, but another side effect of this (a better one) is that NWC will come up with a myriad of unique creatures, but will also figure out that it takes a lot longer to do so.

"I'd like to see about 8-10 towns rather than only 4-5."

As would I, except you can't have one or the other without taking a major risk. Lots of creatures per town = fewer towns. Lots of towns = fewer creatures per town. That is one of the giant problems NWC must face in order to please their gamers. Myself? I'd have a hybrid.

"The three lowest levels should only require gold, ore and wood, and very few precious resources if any."

I would agree here. The three lowest should only require the plentiful resources, so that it can be fair throughout the board, and corresponding to how far you have explored into the map. (You don't want to be asking for too many precious resources too soon. They must be used for the level 6 creatures)

"but allow a choice between two different types of resource silos."

This seems like a favourable idea. This is because it doesn't have to match the town overall, it can match just one structure that you need the extra precious resources to build. I found when I was playing Heroes III, that the fortress resource silo would offer only wood and ore, while I needed the sulphur for my Hydras. It did help my cause, but only by trading. So two resource silos sounds good.

Good ideas, everybody. It is very encouraging for the future.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 04, 2003 10:21 PM

Off-topic: Bonuses applied.

This is one of the best discussions on the Altar for a while so I've rewarded some of the contributors in it.

(I might edit this post later for more comments on the topic.)

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Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 06, 2003 05:03 PM

Djive - I do think it's not impossible to have 8 towns with 18 creatures. Of course it's probable that the animation will be poor but for me it's not that important. I think the gameplay is what matters and if they manage to make 144 unique creatures, the game will be really interesting. I definitely wouldn't prefer a game with few creatures that have great animation!
If there are levels with just one choice, that will spoil the idea because the main reason it's needed is to have a better balance between flyers, shooters and walkers in your army. And yes, a Necropolis without skeletons would be... strange. But I don't think you should be obliged to recruit them. If there are two other possibilities that also suit the town, it won't be so bad not to choose skeletons. By the way, in Heroes 4 you can choose between Elves and White Tigers - and if you choose the latter, does this make the town no Preserve? The creatures that define a town WILL be in it - but you will be able to choose others!
I agree about the resources needed for the different levels. But still there has to be one that is needed on more occasions. I'm not sure about the two resource silos - then my Land Cultivator will surely become a unique building because otherwise you will have too much freedom as to which resources you get...
I can't decide whether it's better to determine the bonuses for your creatures in each town separately or once for all of them. But if we accept the latter, I like your idea about the Capitol. However, I think if there is more than one player who plays with the same town, each of them should be allowed to build one Capitol. And I actually think it shouldn't be the Capitol itself that allows you to assign the bonuses but exactly the structure jondifool suggested - the Creature Developer! But it won't be a separate building, it will be an annex to the Capitol. So each player will be able to build it in just one of his/her towns. When the player captures a neutral town, the bonuses in it will be the same as in the town with the Capitol. If another player (who has determined the bonuses for the same type of town in a different way) captures this town... he will have to put up with the way the first player has assigned them! The only way to change that would be to capture the town with the Capitol, I guess.
The Tavern may prove to be a good home for the town quests indeed! But not minor quests - the map-maker will decide what exactly they will be!
ThE_HyDrA - I did continue posting suggestions about HoMM 4 in the Altar after my "Heroes 4 Beta!!!!!!" thread... But less and less. It looks like I'm most active when the new game is far enough...
Your complicated idea is very good. So some of the structures will always be at the same place and others - at different ones depending on which place is free. But there is a problem - while in Heroes III it was really interesting to look at your towns as they were unique and there were buildings everywhere, after a while you knew where to find them. With buildings changing their place you will never be sure where to find them! This might be really confusing...
How exactly can you make people include in their armies a walker, a shooter/spellcaster and a flyer without the restriction I suggested? If you just tell them that they must have at least one from each type, nothing will prevent them from having 4 shooters, 1 walker and 1 flyer! So we must think of a combination between making people have at least 1 of each type and not letting them have more than 3 from each type! Maybe we may think of an addition to my first idea of locking the same type of dwelling for the next level...
And I'm sure that if NWC listen to the creature ideas of Heroes fans, they will be able to create 144 unique creatures!

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 06, 2003 05:26 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 11:55, 29 Jun 2009.

Quote:
By the way, in Heroes 4 you can choose between Elves and White Tigers - and if you choose the latter, does this make the town no Preserve?


No, but it makes it a non-Elf town. If you base a town on a race like Elves and include Elven Heroes, then I'd say it would be strange if you had only had Elven Heroes to recruit but no Elven creatures in the town.

You can get similar things in AoW2 sometimes, like meeting an AI with 8 Ballista. Which town are you fighting against?

About the creature choices:
My take. If you allow three choices per level then allow any combination of choices. This is the best. If someone wants six shooters let them have it.

Otherwise, if you want to restrict to maximum three of a type, then you can easily do so with prerequisites.

The shooter of level X, requires the spellcaster or melee dwelling of level X-1.

My inclination is however that it's better to have fewer creatures per town and more towns.




Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.

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