|
| Thread: Playing against Humans or AI different classes? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
|
posted April 28, 2003 04:26 AM |
|
|
Quote:
It depends, if someone plays all their games on Champion and wins easily, then I would say that person is close to mastering the game.
Yeah ima speacking with you too! 
Once i killed many ugly bad bad creature on impossibul difficul!
I kill many ugly griffins with me da zombie
So i master game too, because i can many butt with necro kick. Especially with da zombies
ZOMBIES ARE DA BOMB!
And if you split in 3 stack, you can attack with 3 at same time zombie
|
|
midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 28, 2003 04:58 AM |
|
|
For H3...
i've never seen comp do expert berserk
i've never seen comp consolidate armies and arties onto 1 main hero for battle
i've never seen comp expand across map quickly
i've never seen comp collect skels properly
i've never seen comp get good skills except by fluke
i've never seen comp use antimagic then armargeddon to hurt me
i've never seen comp blind my last stack then resurrect all his troops
i've never seen comp use single stack fodder to take away retaliation on battlefield
i've never seen comp attack hives and conservatories early, risking losses, to build up an army
i've never seen comp play better than a 5 year old 
____________
|
|
Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
|
|
posted April 28, 2003 05:24 AM |
|
|
|
wow is it just me or does it seem like midi has switched back to single mode?
|
|
midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 28, 2003 05:42 AM |
|
|
Quote:
wow is it just me or does it seem like midi has switched back to single mode?
playing stiven was too hard, damn he is good, so now i play the comp and can win again! Oh hang, on, i'm thinking of that other nordic guy, archie 
____________
|
|
Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
|
posted April 29, 2003 06:36 PM |
|
|
You've all got it wrong..
Particular occourances dont make you a master! It's how you play the game. How you take ech step.. Because you beat other people dosnt your the master you know.
Ever heard of the wise man on the mountain peak? Try playing him!
____________
What are you up to
|
|
Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
|
|
posted April 29, 2003 07:01 PM |
|
|
Quote:
i've never seen comp use single stack fodder to take away retaliation on battlefield
I admit that I am a n00b, and I play on easy most of the time. And I must say that I have seen AI using lv1 stacks of 1 creature. Yes, on easy.
|
|
Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
|
posted April 30, 2003 04:58 PM |
bonus applied. |
Edited By: Wub on 30 Apr 2003
|
From the moment that I registered as a member here, I have seen many singleplayers who claimed being able to beat the AI at impossible difficulty. While this is not at all a difficult thing to achieve, it makes many players feel like they master the game and therefore many of these people post their singleplayer strategies on this forum. But since these strategies are developed against a very mediocre AI, they are almost always inferior to the strategies which veteran heroes 3 multiplayers use. After all, playing against humans challenges your strategies a lot more.
Therefore I can advise the singleplayers who are new to this forum to read some threads here first. Frank’s HOMM3 tactics, The table of contents from the library and Little but interesting details in H3 are just a few of the many good threads about Heroes 3 in this forum. Reading these kind of threads really improved my understanding of heroes 3, especially on logistical techniques.
But having said this, I am really surprised about the way that many veterans see singleplayer gaming. Playing against a computer just requires different strategies than playing against other humans and I think that that is sometimes being misunderstood. It’s funny that all veterans agree that when it comes to tactics, playing the computer is different than playing humans. The utopia trick with hydras is a good example of this. Yet when the subject changes to strategies, singleplayers are advised to never build less than 6 heroes, postpone the building of a city hall etc.
Maybe I should tell something about playing singleplayer maps. Good singleplayers that like standard battlemaps will usually play on impossible and will even find that not really challenging. To get a challenge, they will choose very resource poor maps, where the computer is given extra resources and a headstart with his castle building. To make the challenge even harder, they will play on small maps, so they have very few time to keep up with the computer and choose maps with strong neutral monsters. To me it is obvious that on maps that are so specifically set like I described, other strategies than multiplayer strategies apply. Maybe for some multiplayers, this is still not clear, so I will give examples.
I think that nobody will deny that the best moment to build city hall and capitol depends on how rich your starting area is. In the scenario described above, your starting area is very poor. The poorer your starting area, the sooner you will generally build your city hall and capitol. Yet when singleplayers state that they often build their city hall in week 1, they are ridiculed by Tournament of Honor players, only because those players are used to insanely rich maps.
Since singleplayer games center around making up for the headstart of the computer, singleplayers prefer slightly other heroes than multiplayers. You need good starting heroes such as, Bron, Shakti, Gurnisson and Galthran. Yet when singleplayers say that they like Bron better than Tazar, they are called n00bs.
Singleplayers such as the ones described above, will like castles that build up very fast. That means no dungeon, because you don’t want to know how painful it is to find all resources required for a pillar’s eye when you start on impossible and have a poor starting area. Therefore many singleplayers like castles such as fortress and stronghold (and maybe to a lesser extent rampart), so they can build rocs and wyverns fast. Yet when singleplayers say that stronghold and fortress are real good and dungeon is only mediocre, they are called tossers by multiplayers because in ToH maps this is not the case.
And thus I could go on and on. But we must not forget that there are also singleplayers that have mainly played campaigns and are posting based on what they know from those. And campaigns (especially on impossible difficulty) are equally different from other heroes 3 types. It goes without saying that in campaigns, magic heroes are a lot better than might heroes. On day 1 of a campaign map, it makes a huge difference if your carryover hero can summon 150 elementals or that his 30 troglodytes do 35 extra damage and have armorer. Yet when singleplayers say that magic heroes are real good, they get laughed at by ToH players, since there might heroes are predominant.
Also some singleplayers like to play custom made maps from creative geniuses, where the gamplay is so absurd that many heroes 3 laws are altered. In Battle of the Gods for example, you must develop a magic hero who grows so quickly that he can beat 1000 archdevils in week 3. Yet I don’t think this gives me the right to toss at ToH players who can ‘only’ take out a dragon utopia in week 3.
The bottom line is that even though I think that the ToH veterans that post here are the best multiplayers in the world and can teach you some valuable lessons, there is no need to look down on singleplayers. I want to correct the misunderstanding that playing the computer is only for people with no skill. I challenge both veterans who are still not convinced and singleplayers who think they are the best to download and play this Restoration of Erathia map and play it on impossible as one color. It is only a fast, small map, so it won’t take you too much time. For your information: I completed it on impossible, but I didn’t play random and I needed to reload a few times.
____________
|
|
Kuma
Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
|
posted April 30, 2003 05:44 PM |
|
|
I gave red star for that very constructive post.
I think u are right and I encourage all to read it very carefully.
|
|
silx87
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 30, 2003 06:07 PM |
|
|
I advise every next person,before posting here,read Wub's post once or twice!
____________
|
|
AndiAngelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 30, 2003 06:22 PM |
|
|
it may be a good post, but i stopped when i was reading the following: playing against the computer requires a different strategy...no i can assure you it doesnt.
If you play your usual stuff vs the comp, like you were playing against humans, you will crush him just earlier than the single player - thats all, i know it coz when i was bored i sometimes created a rdm and played vs 7 comps or so
You are just on a higher level after playing multi, which means the comp is even less a challenge - everything else is a faerie tale
|
|
Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
|
|
posted May 01, 2003 04:28 PM |
|
|
Thanks for the positive feedback, guys .
Andi - so you can beat 7 computer players? Not bad . Of course I agree with you that the AI is retarded, that's why you need to give it a huge headstart to keep a challenge. Beating 7 computers is not much of a challenge, even I can do that (in fact cd maps often require you to do that). But when you make it harder to yourself like I described in my post, then you will notice that you should alter your strategies a bit. Of course, if you don't bother to read what I wrote, it's hard to convince you of that.
Next time you are bored, you may want to play the RoE map that I suggested in my post. It's small and plays fast. I don't doubt that you will still do better than me because you are simply a state of the art player. But if you play on 200%, take Dungeon as town, Geon as starting hero and an artifact starting bonus, I'm sure you will notice that singleplayer can be challenging.
____________
|
|
thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
|
posted May 01, 2003 07:09 PM |
|
|
Well, I'm a noob, taken into account my 0 online homm3 exp. Yet, I am happy to be a noob.
To me, multi is just like work more than game. To be successful, you got to make yourselves familiar with maps especially those fixed maps and those rdm templates. You will be better if you can maximize the usage of your troop i.e. let the same troop from your starting 3 heroes fight 10 battles in one single day with 2 or 3 mains. Get important sites e.g. conservatories, topia etc as early as possible. No one can win multi without chaining. I'm curious that is there anyone who has played the multi games with the rule : NO CHAINING ??? .
You are just doing the same thing with nearly all towns (nearly). Since ppl want quick excitement and I personally think only very few ppl want a > 5 hrs multi. Some tactics are banned in multi e.g. hit/run, diplo simply because this will lower the skill level required to win the game. Might heroes are favoured over magic heroes coz magic heroes just allow for more unpredictability and hence considered less skill level. Some tactics are not welcomed coz they may make the game played much much longer e.g. wraith bomb, or will you tolerate your opponent fight a throng of dendroid with a few devils ???
I am completely new to multi and so maybe I am wrong with it. But I don't like play homm just like doing some kind of job e.g. calculating the max. movement and chaining and chaining and chaining. You play games just like a skilled "labour".... It makes the turn based homm played like some real time game e.g. AoE. Maybe allied multi is better. At least you really need some team tactic to win e.g. one player to harrass and hinder the development of opponents while the other to develop killer army to finish them off....etc etc.........
The single player games simply need "different" tactic and the key is one word: "Spell" ! And magic heroes rulz in well planned and designed single-player maps . Anyway, different ppl enjoy the game in different ways and there are no superior and inferior ways to me.
|
|
Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
|
|
posted May 01, 2003 08:53 PM |
|
|
...sorry ...but ...the Fact is:
There is NO difference between online and offline gaming.
The only difference is that u face the Computer in the Endfight instead of a Human player.
Xarfax1
____________
|
|
Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
|
|
posted May 02, 2003 01:28 AM |
|
Edited By: Wub on 1 May 2003
|
Quote:
There is NO difference between online and offline gaming.
I can remember your post in the HoMM3 tactics thread where you explained the use of carrots and candies versus the AI. Or the one where you described how to let the dragons in an utopia kill each other while only bringing fodder yourself (great posts btw). So apparently you do exploit AI loopholes on the combat map.
But now you're saying that it is not a good idea to exploit AI loopholes on the adventure map? And that we should just act like we are playing a human?
____________
|
|
midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted May 02, 2003 05:15 AM |
|
|
nice try wub, but u missed the point. On both comp and human games u still gotta fight the adventure map. U will clear a utopia the same way on either game, using the same tricks of the trade. True?
I would pick a logistics hero over any magic hero if i wanted to beat the comp. If u rush a comp, ignoring large stacks and utopias u will always beat the c r a p out of it. On 200% the only magic hero that might be useful is Ciele with her nasty arrow, but by week 3 need a might hero instead or troop losses will be too much.
The only time a magic hero can be useful is on campaign games where u can keep the hero over multiple games, using your summon, res and DD spells right from the start. Usually tho, u can get similar spells tho slightly lower magic stats on a logistics hero.
____________
|
|
notmytohhandle
Known Hero
|
|
posted May 02, 2003 05:46 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Some richeous people say it takes online experience to be a real homm master. If I were boyish enough to think I had a reason to prove other wise then I would. Point is, AI teaches just fine! It is the student which absorbs the information not the teacher who explains it, which develops the students skill.
So, I say I tapped into the spirit of grand Homm teachings.
I learned more than any sort of opponent can teach me.
It dosn't take opponents to learn!
I actually agree with u, u can be a really good player from playing sp and hotseats. But many players feel they are skilled simply by beating the ai and this is hardly the case.
/Archie
|
|
Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
|
|
posted May 02, 2003 02:17 PM |
|
|
@Wub
Quote:
The only difference is that u face the Computer in the Endfight instead of a Human player.
Hello Wub,
i really like your posts, youve a good style of argumentation and u respect other peoples opinion.
But in my opinion is it still like i already stated above. If u look more closely to the games u will see that even against human players its about 80% what online players call "playing against the map" and only 20% playing against the human opponent.
So if u need different strats on a map "designed for offline gameing", it is because the map is designed like it, and not because u r playing against a computer.
The difference is still, that u only face a computer in endfight not a human. And as the Comp is ..mmh.. i would say "not so inteligent" u can win against him even with cheap strats and low gaming skill.
Well in this point i must admit there is the difference: The comp can be beaten even by week players.
For example: Some offliners state that it can be very tough on a so called "offline-map", cause he faces a comp with a throng of nagas in an endfight. And he won cause he did this or that cause the comp is not inteligent enough to counter it. Straight after this those players state how bright they are.. and they did it on 200% ...and they got an archangel all the time for it...well..im not really impressed. Give those throng of nagas into the hand of an average human player and he will know how bright he really is.
So the difference between an offline and an online game is still that u face a human in an endfight and therefore most cheap tactics dont work. The different mapstyle of some "offline-maps" is not an argument for a "total differnt game", as the game is still the same, but only limited to the circumstances that are on the map.
Btw. some people say online-map and have only the rich TOH-maps in their mind and therefore they say "bah this only works on your rich online maps". But believe also for online gaming there are maps which are restricted in many farious ways, not to forget the randoms maps, which are the same as for non-human-games.
One thing i would like to point out in the end: Ive really no problem, if someone is playing only non-human-games. And if someone states a good strat here against the comp, i really love to hear it (for example DoddTheSlayer increases Frenzy effect with casting stoneskin before).
But if someone beats the comp for the last years, and his strategies just dont work against an average player, and acting like he knows everything. then i think he can expect a good laugh. IF SOMEONE PUBLIC HIS OPINION HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO LIVE WITH THE PUBLIC REACTION. And if many veteran players say that he is wrong, he should at least think about it (i dont mean u Wub).
My threads are always belong to online gaming. And the strats for online gaming also works for games without and opponent. So the described "loopwholes" can be used in both.
Ok, i think enough said, like andiangelslayer already stated: Everything else are fairy tales.
Xarfax1
and PS: Every online gamer was once an offliner... so maybe if u think about it u know that they know how offline gaming is.
____________
|
|
Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
|
|
posted May 03, 2003 12:24 AM |
|
|
Hi Midnight,
You are completely right that when you are fighting the map, your combat tactics are exactly similar when you will meet a human in the endfight or the AI. That’s exactly why I appreciate the input of veterans like you so much: it really improves my gaming. But the strategical choices that you make on the adventure map do differ when you are facing an AI or a human.
I’ll give you a simple example. I read that for multiplaying, resistance is an OK skill. Against the computer it is not so good, because 1) the computer often chooses skills such as eagle eye instead of earth magic 2) when you attack an enemy hero it has often depleted its spellpoints against some level 1 stack and 3) when it casts a spell, it is often something like protection from fire . Or, as you said, I’ve never seen comp do expert berserk. So while you may want to choose resistance against humans, you don’t want it against the comp. Therefore I think it is best to use slightly different strategies when playing against the comp.
You may object that it is not necessary to alter your strategies because you can rush the AI in week 3 anyway. Of course, when you play a ToH map against the comp, I think that will give you a very easy win, also on 200%. But that is because you are making it too easy for yourself: even I don’t see it as a challenge to beat the crap out of an AI with that settings. Instead you should (as I like to do) give the AI lots of extra troops, resources, buildings etc. Trust me that you don’t want to rush the computer then, but rather play defensively to make up for its headstart. And when you have found the perfect challenge, it does matter noticeably whether you exploit AI loopholes or not.
Hi Xarfax,
It’s funny that I agree with 90% of what you stated. Man, you don’t want to know how much I despise the arrogance of some single players as well! Maybe it helps if 3DO changes the name of 200% difficulty from impossible to if you win on this difficulty, your skill may still suck badly, so don’t toss on heroescommunity?
Whether you use different strategies against the AI or not, I very much agree with you that your strategies are more defined by the kind of map you are playing on. But that is another point that I was trying to make: many veterans are very ‘ToHmap minded’ or ‘randommap minded’. For example, I read about the singleplayer campaign ‘eternal love’ where one of the maps is pretty much custom made around the skill eagle eye. But if someone posts: eagle eye sometimes has its uses too then the typical answer from veterans is: tosser! This is funny n00b talk to the extreme! Play online and you will lose badly! etc. etc. Sometimes, that makes me feel like singleplaying is seen as inferior.
Therefore it is good to hear that you appreciate some input from singleplayers too. The problem is, I myself cannot tell you which of my strategies are valuable and which are n00by. So I usually don’t post them, and if I post them it is usually not on the Myth and Heroes board and with the least possible bit of arrogance. But one simply cannot expect both valuable input from singleplayers and no bad strategies. It is either no tips from singleplayers, or a few useful tips together with a lot of crap.
In the end we still seem to be disagreeing about whether altering your strategies when playing the computer is necessary. Maybe I should give one last example. If I don’t want to fight a hero in his castle, I approach him with a scout. When the hero takes the ‘candy’, I can either fight him in the open or take his castle. Obviously, this strategy makes no sense against a human. But if you are playing a computer which you have given a headstart of two weeks on 200%, you’ll be very happy to use this trick .
____________
|
|
Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
|
posted May 07, 2003 06:38 AM |
|
|
I assume Toh starts games out where each opponent has it equal. Example..
5 "zones"
A castle and equal resource in each zone.
Well, whichever player plays well to rob the middle zone, will have a sharp edge. Why, you must think you could take out 3.5 of them before all single players.
A single player still dose the same thing. AI is still an opponent. Granted it dose stupid & smart things, granted there is an auto save feature.. The single player is still playing the game using his tactics to conquer & destroy. Say the AI became a human.. Big deal, dose the tactics change?
Bottom line here is, there is this tactical web which once your hands run through it, you can feel your way around HOMM life much better. Perhaps online players touch it faster (because of motivation to get high ranks proving to themselves they are good players =P ) Online, or single playing dosnt offer much of a different teaching
As I've already stated, the teaching aproach is not exactly what the student learns. What the student learns is what he/she learns. I dont mind what you guys say, it is very possible for a single player to master this game!
Lemme speak in online playing language. Did you ever see a n00b do well?? A complete n00b to online gaming. Well, I bet the n00b which was recognized climbing ranks like an early vet, had alot of homm teaching. More than likely Singleplaying =)
All the tricks and trades are useful additions to the ultimate tactic, and will help overcome particular situations.. However these tricks alone are only an addition, why take those from "AndiASlayer" and he will still have a fair chance. Why?? Becuase the opponent didn't grasp the tacticl essence which is pure in everything.
Now, the only difference between online, and singleplaying.
against potential masters
against scripting
If winning is the only thing that makes you think your a master, then you might not be one. You may have a pattern "dothis do this do this" just like AI which lets you win alot.. But you may never even see the possibilities of true mastery.
There is a thing.. It looks like an imaginary thing.
It is the mastery which can actualy reveal the perfect move and action for every second and situation. Do you see that, or do you act as AI always doing the same thing. Do you flip a coin when you question, or do you look at each deciding factor until the perfect action is revealed?
I assure you, the talent to see this is not only available through human to human playing.
____________
What are you up to
|
|
Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
|
|
posted May 09, 2003 05:12 PM |
|
|
...celfious proove yourself an ignorant:
- make your first online game against an average player.
- get beaten without having a glimpse of a chance
- be bright enough to ask him what faults u made and get proper answers.
- then think about the crap u stated here, cause then your eyes are open and your brain ready for some real information.
- be sad that uve lost this game without a chance, and therefore go back to compkilling.
- being bored after the first 5 Minutes of offline boredom.
- get back to online, do apologize, ask for the main tactical things uve to observe to improve your lousy gameskill.
- get sad again, cause players remembered the crap u talked in this forum an therefore giving you no longer tactical advices which would help.
- press Alt F4 for Zone Heroes Strategie List, as the generous Xarfax1 gave u this advice on the zone.
- retry Capital-first-week-strat and experience-or-money strat against a bad online player.. and even this lousy player beats the hell out of u.
- start to cry
- making statements on the zone that u r crying
- crazy_lair_18 wants to play u
- he wants to play u badly
- UncoatedTitan arrives and sees that there is a noobie in need to be killed.
- UT gets higher in ranks.
- U remembered this this Mapeditortricky thingie and start a game which u win... from now on u win 10 games in a row and tell other players how good u are in the zone.
- giving holymen a kiss as he gives u some more cool advices
- dont find your toh account anymore
- why im on this list? Ive done nothing wrong, it was only meant as a "joke". Give me my points back.
- writing a very insulting post against a HC member
- get warned by board members
- dont listen
- YEAAAH FINALLY U CANT POST HERE!!
....well wouldnt it be easier to stop posting your stupid strats in here?
Xarfax1
-
____________
|
| |
|
|
