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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: for all those necro lovers
Thread: for all those necro lovers This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Wildbear
Wildbear


Hired Hero
posted June 22, 2003 03:33 AM

First post here, so hi everybody !

I was looking at all those necropolis ideas and remembered H4's necropolis. There was one thing I really didn't like : having a choice between creatures.
I think the perfect necropolis would be a necropolis where all your creatures are raised by a necromancer, not summoned. The necromancer is the power of the necropolis, none of his/her creatures should be able to overshadow him/her.
When you choose a creature and the necromancer can't raise that creature himself, the creature is independant, a necromancer should not accept that. So I think there mustn't be any choice in a necropolis, the creatures available are those a necromancer can raise : skeletons, zombies, ghosts, vampires, liches, dark knights and bone dragons.
That's 7 creatures, H5 has 6 creatures only so we must remove one of them, obviously the zombie.
Actually, I'd prefer this one :
lvl1- Skeleton
lvl2- Zombie -> Ghoul -> Vampire (maybe with more upgrades)
lvl3- Wraith
lvl4- Lich
lvl5- Dread Knight
lvl6- Bone dragon
Of course, there could be upgrades for other creatures, no matter
This one is (imo) the most complete necropolis heroes could have. Creatures like the flesh/bone golem could be in the game, but only as summoned creatures.
About archer in the necropolis, I think it's not a good idea to add range units because this town already has 3 flying creatures (ghost, vampire, bone dragon). Those flying creatures were supposed to let skeletons reach the other side of the battleground in H2 and H3, because skeletons were supposed to be thousands. A range unit is somehow even better than a flying one, because it attacks without moving. What would happen if there were more range units in H5's necropolis ? the vampires would attack the creatures and range units would attack, no loss, no glory.
I think all creatures in the necropolis must remain the same, the necropolis should not evolve, its creatures have been the same and will remain the same for centuries. Of course, I'd like to see more units, but units like the grim reaper or the bone golem should be summoned creatures only.
Well, I don't like the towns but I really like all the creatures ideas

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Wildbear
Wildbear


Hired Hero
posted June 30, 2003 01:45 PM

You certainly prefer when the upgraded creature is the same as the non-upgraded creature, right ? But there's nothing logical in upgrade : how could a green dragon become gold or red ? how could an angel become an archangel, how could a stone golem become an iron golem ? alchemy ?
A zombie is a dead body, a ghoul is a dead body and a vampire is a dead body, there's no difference between them, they have no soul, are hungry and fear the light of the sun.
When a zombie kills someone, its victim turns into zombie, that's exactly the same with vampires.
If you don't like this tree, you logically don't like the whole upgrade system in heroes : pixies are not fearies, a mage can't get 50 years older when you pay him, a behemoth can't become grey for gold, a djinn is not a genie, a roc is absolutely not a thunderbird, giants are not titans, an imp is not a familiar, a hell hound can't have two more head when you pay for them, do I really have to continue ?
Giving the vampires as a base creature kills the game because they're too powerful, with this tree, vampires come later in the game and are still available, and the 7 base creatures of the necropolis are in the town.
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vladpopescu79
vladpopescu79


Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
posted July 01, 2003 09:02 PM

Wildbear, the only shortcoming in this upgrade system is that once you upgrade the zombie to vampire, you can't play with the zombie anymore. And I love to use them. Changing animals into others when upgrading them actually paupers the game; and are you sure that with this system you will have enough creatures to fill in the ranks? (without bringing in all kind of stupid animals just to fill the emplty places)
____________
MANE, TEKEL, FARES

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Wildbear
Wildbear


Hired Hero
posted July 01, 2003 10:00 PM

Why couldn't you buy the non upgraded creatures ? I can't imagine a necropolis without zombies, but with only 6 base dwellings, there's no room for them in the game, because  there will always be vampires in the necropolis, because a necropolis without skeletons is not a necropolis, and because I want liches in the necropolis.
I want to see as many undead creatures as possible in the necropolis, and when I count them, I've got more than 6 creatures.
In H4, you start with your creatures, skeletons and imps, play with a dozen ghosts and when you have 5 vampires, you have nothing else in your army.
The vampires are too strong, so you must not be able to hire them quickly and easily, so having them as upgraded creatures only is the best solution.
I'd even prefer a longer upgrade path :
walking dead -> zombie -> mutant -> ghoul -> vampire
If there is a delay to upgrade creatures (1 day per step), and the maximum amount of upgrades at a time is limited to the base creature growth of the dwelling, you can't upgrade all your zombies to vampires.
Now, about all creatures being available, this could come from the necromancy skill itself. I'm trying a new necromancy skill (made with scripts) in h4, and it works very well :
- from all humanoid creatures : skeletons (about 90% on big stacks), zombies and ghosts. If there is a vampire in the army and more than 256 humanoids are killed, you raise 1 vampire (for 256 humanoids, 2 for 512 humanoids, etc.), skeletons, zombies and ghosts.
- from animals and spirits (genies, efreeti) : ghosts
- from champions and paladins : death knights (low rate)
- from dragons : bone dragons (2% to 45% at lvl70)
Now, imagine you can upgrade your zombies to  vampires : one zombie costs 35 gold, 1 vampire 1100 : you have to pay 1065 gold to upgrade from the zombie to the vampire.
When you have 200 zombies, you can't pay 213000 gold to upgrade all of them, so you'll always have zombies in your army.
You could think there's no difference : you still have vampires, so you can play only with vampires. Actually, this is about not possible anymore, because you can't raise vampires after every battle. After 100 battles, I have "only" 30 to 35 vampires in my army. You can't fight 20 dragons golem with 35 vampires, and if you lose a vampire in a battle, he does not come back 10 seconds later.

This is not an idea I had 2 minutes before my post, I actually tried it in H4 using scripts, and it works very well. With my script, I can raise 6 types of undeads, with the necromancer in the army, there's no empty slot. If there were liches in the game, I would add a "raise liches from mages" ability, therefore, there would be 7 different creatures in my army : skeletons, zombies, ghosts, vampires, liches, dark knights and bone dragons. With seven slots in the game, this system would be perfect : all creatures, all from necromancy, all recruitable in town with only 6 different dwellings.
An army of undeads must be made of all types of undeads.
____________

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vladpopescu79
vladpopescu79


Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
posted July 02, 2003 01:34 AM

OK, Wildbear, I had to read your posts from the very first to be able to give you an answer, and here are my objections :

1. Of course the necromancer is the most important in the town, but you're making a confusion: there is a hierarchy also amongst the necromancers, and the hero certainly is not the best of them! You should imagine that each town is having a sort of High Council doing the REAL "unearthing", and that your hero is just a general, with a rather PATHETIC necromancy-skill compared to the Council. So, there is no base for your proposal to necro-rise every single un-dead creature.

2. You say that placing 7 un-deads into 6 spots means automatically erasing the zombie. I don't think so. The zombie is much more proeminent as an un-dead compared to the Bone Dragon. So why don't you fire the latter instead ?

3.I don't agree with you when you say there should be no archer because there are already 3 flyers. What about Dungeon with 2 flyers and 2 shooters. What about Tower with 3 shooters and one flyer. You see? There is not a golden rule. Actually I would vote for one 2 shooters (lich and zombie archer -> I expressed my idea already in "town proposals"). I'd rather see an undead ranged than flying.

4. You say all creatures in Necropolis should remain the same, yet you introduce in your ideas few new ones (ghouls, mutants - which actually are not really representative for the necros). (And the walking dead is a zombie too).How do you explain that?

5. You don't want vamps to be base creature because they are too powerfull? then don't make them so powerfull.Or make them very expensive. It's easy as pie. The vampires in h3 where not extravagantly powerful until you upgraded them to Lords. That is not an argument, really...But I agree with you that logically your upgrade from zombie to vampire is just as sound as any other.

6. You complain that there are too many creatures and too few positions in your army. So do I. That's why they'll never be able to put them together, at least not with this formula.

7. Your necromancy skill doesn't look very productive...did you really ment 2% bone dragons at level 70? I've played heroes for years and my her never reached that level, in fact, far from it... Unless you burden the map with skill trees, I don't see how... And my opinion: if my hero is level 70 and I fight let's say 100 black dragons, I don't give a damn if i can produce 2 "bony" at the end of that combat! Why? Because my level 70 hero with an army capable of defeating 100 blackies won't need it anymore. It's already the best hero on the map! Unless you're planning for XXXL maps that look like carnages.

Well, that's about all of it, sorry to be so critical...
____________
MANE, TEKEL, FARES

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Aquaman333
Aquaman333


Famous Hero
of the seven seas
posted July 02, 2003 01:46 AM

He's right. Level 70 is near impossible to reach. I've never broken fifty.
____________
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"OOOOOOO!"."  
"Peter, those are Cheerios."-Family Guy

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Wildbear
Wildbear


Hired Hero
posted July 02, 2003 02:51 AM

1- in H4, you rise skeletons, ghosts or vampires from dragons... no comment. And there's no "High Council" in Heroes games. Is the hero no more than a general ? Well, Sandro and Von Tarkin are very good examples, they're more than simple generals.
2- Because the necropolis needs a high level creature, because the best creature of the game is a dragon, and because the bone dragon has always been the top level creature of the necropolis, we're talking about Heroes games, not about a new games serie.
3- If you want all towns to be the same, with 3 flyers and 2 shooters, you basically want one town in the game, and different graphics for different alignments. Diversity is the key in a game like Heroes.
4- Ghouls are required by many people, as well as banshees or grim reapers, it makes sense to add it to the upgrade tree if it is possible. The mutant was in Heroes II, at least, it was his name in my version of H2. He was the upgraded zombie, so this one is not new. And I think the walking dead was the zombie in H3, or maybe trespassed... I don't remember, it was an example, no more.
5- I agree with you on this point, vampires should be weaker, but some people want them to be very powerful, I read some necro town ideas with the vampire as lvl6, higher than the bone dragon ! If people really want that, the best way is to make them as rare as possible, and to forbid the necromancer to rise vampires himself.
6- it would not be possible to put all types of creatures in the army, that's right, but that's the strategic choice the player has to make when he plays : less upgraded creatures or more non-upgraded creatures. If the player doesn't upgrade his creatures (or upgrade some zombies to vampires), he can have all his creatures in his army.
7- Naaa, I mean 2% at level 1, 45% at level 70, and about 10% at level 15, that really is enough, believe me When there were not enough dragons in the enemy's army, you keep the bonus for next battles, so if you fight ten times against one dragon, and if your necro skill is at 10%, you raise one bone dragon. Most of the time, your hero is lvl20 to 30, so you can raise 15 to 20% dragons.

As long as there's no offense, critics are welcome.
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CountZero
CountZero


Adventuring Hero
posted July 02, 2003 05:38 AM

Quote:

If the player doesn't upgrade his creatures (or upgrade some zombies to vampires), he can have all his creatures in his army.



Very interesting thread BTW. Regarding upgrades, it is stated that the player can choose not to upgrade. I do not like the upgrade system but if the game contained it (as in H3) I would use it because it is obviously advantageous to have the "strongest" creatures available. Therefore I do not really believe there is a choice, unless the player enjoys losing.

What I really dislike about the upgrade system is having armies out on the adventure map with non-upgraded creatures and when the upgrade can be afforded those same creatures have to be transported back to a place where they can be upgraded. Sometimes "mixed" armies are formed and the player runs out of army slots.

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Wildbear
Wildbear


Hired Hero
posted July 02, 2003 06:14 AM

Right, H3's upgrades were so obviously the good choice that upgrades were removed in H4. When a choice is obvious, there is no strategy, and it is removed from the game because it's a strategy game.
With the constant raise of all types of creatures, the choice is not obvious anymore for the necros, and with the slow and expensive upgrade idea, upgrades are not obviously the best choices in other castles. Another example : resurection skill resurects creatures to their lower level (1 or 2 levels under if a creatures has multiple upgrades, which won't happen).
About the lack of empty slots problem, there could be some caravan slots (1 to 5, maybe a skill, or a side effect of the logistic skill).
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CountZero
CountZero


Adventuring Hero
posted July 03, 2003 05:05 AM

Quote:

With the constant raise of all types of creatures, the choice is not obvious anymore for the necros, and with the slow and expensive upgrade idea, upgrades are not obviously the best choices in other castles. Another example : resurection skill resurects creatures to their lower level (1 or 2 levels under if a creatures has multiple upgrades, which won't happen).



I'm beginning to understand your point. As I see it you are advocating that upgrading should be an expensive exercise and therefore there will be some sort of a trade off between cost and creature "strength".

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vladpopescu79
vladpopescu79


Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
posted July 04, 2003 12:17 AM

1. Well, Sandro is only one and the rest of necro heroes count for more than a dozen... so you have to accept that some are better than others. And yes, I know that there is no Council in heroes games, but we all imagine that someone inhabit those buidings in the town, right? We suppose that some mages developed the spells in the Mage Tower and that some mayor runs the town.
Our dispute could be easily be solved by introducing again the special skills for each hero...then Sandro could have the special skill of necromancy and both of us would be happy, right?

2. Necropolis needs a high level creature, right, and the dragon tends to be the best creature of the game. But those two statements do not create a sylogism ending with the imperative of having Bone Dragons. I'd rather not see them in h5. The Dark Champions (as they are named in H4) seem more suited to me, for reasons that I've posted in other thread. So, in the same game, same creatures, I don't want anything else.

3. Never said that I want same thing from all towns. You got me wrong. It was just an example, to show you that many combinations are possible, not only yours.

4. In h2, there were "mutant zombies", just an upgraded zombie. Perhaps ghouls are required by many people, I don't know, but I want your opinion and answer, not others'

5. First part = OK. But if they make the vampires level 6, why not raise them. You yourself developed a system of raising level 6 creatures. Only if they are Dragons? (just teasing... ) But I still want an answer...

6. I don't know if they'll ever implement the system of upgrading only some creatures of the same rank. It's too complicated and there's already shortage of spacein the armies.
And the upgrades in my opinion shoud first of all make you stronger, not give you a tactical choice of recruiting one or another.

7.That's completely something else. But the idea of raising one bonie from ten DIFFERENT dragons in ten DIFFERENT battles doesn't seem right to me.

Hopefully this debate will continue...
____________
MANE, TEKEL, FARES

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Wildbear
Wildbear


Hired Hero
posted July 04, 2003 01:24 AM

1- Sandro is maybe the most famous of them, because he was the most powerful necromancer (I'm talking about necromancy) in H3. If there were more powerful necromancers in town, they would be generals. If there are necromancers in the town councel, they are less powerful than a level 6 hero. He was an example, take any necromancer and put him in a campaign where he can raise high levels, their power has nothing to do with their names or their faces.
2- Maybe you don't like the bone dragon, but it's necros' top level creature in Heroes, they are the biggest skeletons a necromancer can raise and are the symbol of the power of necromancy.
3- I never got you wrong, you want more range units in the necropolis when this town never had more than one range unit. In H4, two towns have only one range unit : the necropolis and the preserve, and the preserve has an offensive spellcaster. If you add a range unit or a spellcaster to the necropolis, it will have the same number of range units and spell casters as another one. What would be the difference between playing haven and playing necropolis ? Graphics ? Dark Champions are dead champions and paladins, champions and paladins are so weak that killing them won't make them extremely stronger, therefore thay can't be top level units. In H4, dark champions are powerful for design and commercial purpose, their power was more logical in H3.
4- I explained it : people want new creatures, this one makes sense in an upgrade tree. I don't like the idea but if it allows more depth in the game, it's a good thing.
5- There's a logical problem : only vampires can "create" new vampires. Allowing vampires to "raise" vampires themselves at a very slow rate is the best solution if you want to play with something else in your army than vampires. If you don't believe me, try H2 PoL, and play with some ghosts. Having creatures recruiting their troops themselves is fun, but in this version it was too powerful.
6- That's what they did in H3, did you ever played a HoMM game ? Heroes games are strategy games, when there is no strategy in a feature, they remove it. If you want upgrades in the game, upgrades must be strategic choices.
7- It never happens. I think you don't understand how necromancy works : when there are ten skeletons, the necromancer tries to raise all skeletons, if he's not powerful enough, he'll have a percentage of chances to raise the skeletons, say 50%. if he's lucky, he'll raise all skeletons, if he's not, he'll raise no skeleton. In video games, randomness is both dangerous and difficult to balance, and when there are more than 10 bodies to raise, randomness has the same effects as a percentage. After 100 battles raising skeletons randomly with 50% chances to raise all of them, you have the same number of skeletons as after those 100 battles raising a percentage of skeletons. For battles against small stacks of creatures, randomness would be more accurate, but most battles in Heroes involve more than 1 creature. Randomness should be calculated creature per creature, raising skeletons from 100000 peasants would take ages, I don't think players would like to wait 10 minutes after each battle.


____________

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Michael
Michael


Adventuring Hero
Devil Slayer
posted July 05, 2003 11:32 AM

Necropolis:


======
Heroes
======

Assassin
-Basic Sacrifice
-Basic Leadership

Necromancer
-Basic Death Magic
-Basic Necromancy

=========
Creatures
=========

lvl 1

Walking Dead => Zombie => Plagued Zombie (Graveyard)
slow, high defance. Plagued Zombies have Plague on attack.

Skeleton => Skeleton Warrior => Skeleton Archer (Bone Vault)
balanced.

lvl 2

Mummy => Royal Mummy => Pharoe Mummy (Pyramid)
Slow, has Curse on attack. Pharoe Mummys have MR.

Ghost => Waight => Wraith (Tomb of Souls)
Fast, low HP. Wraiths are self healing.

lvl 3

Bone Golem => Flesh Golem => Rot Golem (Rotten Factory)
Slow, high damage. Flesh and Rot Golems have Plague on attack.

Vudo Priest => Death Priest => Death Templar (Sacrifice Pit)
Spell caster creature.

lvl 4

Vampire => Blood Vampire => Vampire Lord (Haunted Mansion)
Self healing. Vampire Lords have Bloodbath on attack.

Warewolf => Black Warewolf => Warewolf King (Warewolf Den)
Fast, high damage. Warewolf King can use dead bodies to heal himself.

lvl 5

Lich => Power Lich => Necromancy Lich (Mueseliume)
Long-Ranged creature, has Posion on attack. Necromancy Liches can rais Skeletons.

Black Knight => Dread Knight => Death Knight (Dark Castle)
Fast, high damage, high attack.

lvl 6

Bone Dragon => Ghost Dragon => Death Dragon (Dragon Graveyard)fast, high HP. Death Dragon is self healing.

Reaper => Grim Reaper => Infernal Reaper (Doonsday Portal)
Fast, high damage.

=================
Unique Buildings:
=================

Skeleton Transformer => Ghost Transformer

Necromancy Amfiliater

Cursed Tomb

---------------------

lvl 5 Necromancer's Guild

Shipyard

Chaos Annex

Annex of Wizzardy
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Subjects ARE the empire, never underestimate them.

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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
posted July 05, 2003 06:29 PM

since when...

are Werewolves undead? they fit better in nature or might oriented towns...

the rest are all good though
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.

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Wildbear
Wildbear


Hired Hero
posted July 05, 2003 06:36 PM

Werewolves are NOT undead creatures, they're the most living creatures ever. However I don't know if they would fit in the nature town, if there were two alignments (good and bad) per town, it could be fun to have them in the nature town.
There's a problem with werewolves... they're peasants 27 days of the month :|
____________

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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
posted July 05, 2003 06:45 PM

hahahaha...

depends on who you ask ...btw, Werewolves, like most nature beasts are neither good or evil... they do what they have to do in order to survive... just because the medieval europeans were scared ****less of wolves, it doesn't make the shapeshifters evil

besides, depending on which myth you chose to follow, werewolves can turn into the beast form any day... they are just more deadlier during the 3 days of the full moon..
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.

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Wildbear
Wildbear


Hired Hero
posted July 05, 2003 09:36 PM

Shapeshifting in combat ? Why not... what would be the base creature for werewolves ?
Maybe once a month some peasant-like creatures could turn into werewolves, or some druids in the nature town could have this ability, this would allow them to be more than weak spellcasters when they face a dragon.
____________

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stargazer
stargazer


Famous Hero
hero of order and life
posted July 07, 2003 03:32 AM

or maybe just a illusionist level 5 power shape shifting can copy 1 creature on feild down side is you cant recrut from a town
____________
When we are young
Wandering the face of the Earth
Wondering what our dreams might be worth
Learning that we're only Mortal for a little while

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted July 07, 2003 05:22 AM

lith:
'on the zombie upgrade tree, I couldn't disagree more...
zombie: souless human, usually rotting (not always tho)
ghoul: flesh eating fiend or vampire protige/wannabe (depends on who you ask)
vampire: the bloodsucker we all know and love...
...
the three creatures can't be steps of the same ladder... its like saying a skeleton can be upgraded to a zombie... of course in order to do that it would have to grow flesh, so its pretty much a no can do...'

so.. who was it who said that vampires before the legend of dracula were more like zombies who liked to suck blood (it was last year, i guess, and i hope i havn't messed anything up here)?

what would be a vampire that cannot suck blood? the only difference between a vampire and a zombie is that a vampire can walk around in human form in the daytime according to some modern fantasy, i wonder if this has some roots in mythology?

there have been modern speculations that vampirism was connected to some disease or another (i remember syphilis was one of those diseases). although i am extremely skeptical about this explanation and consider it unnecessary, this feeble hint about vampires and homm style zombies sometimes being associated with disease would fit nicely in the back of a player's subconscious mind if the upgrade were enabled.

and, what i liked about the upgrades was actually that zombies were lower than ghouls and ghouls were lower than vampires in the hierarchy. and, also that they all have something in common, namely flesh on their bones and hunger, and the dynamics of those in the upgrades is rather nicely systematic imho: the nutritional value of their own flesh and their ability to utilize corpses they eat or blood they suck from others increases with upgrades and their degree of being "alive" and having a mind of their own.

as i understood, you meant it like:
zombies could downgrade themselves to skeletons, but not the other way, because skeletons don't have flesh.
vampires could downgrade themselves to zombies because zombies have rotten flesh.

but what if it's the bloodsucking that keeps the vampires fresh and otherways they would be ordinary zombies?

i must say i was surprised at your negative opinion at this upgrade. it would be best if i could provoke you to explain your views more, because you usually have a habit of writing competently and comprehensively (((;
the fact that some creatures changed from female to male during an upgrade does not mean that we should say that it's ok to upgrade vampires to hobbits.

========
wildbear:
i would strongly advise not to base the upgrade on cost but rather on time or whatever else (experience?). maybe it would be ok if only a small portion of recruited creatures could be upgraded each week? unless you have more gold than you can spend, what would be the point of recruiting the marginally better upgrades?

actually i would suggest that the upgrades would be much stronger than the base creatures, but then the emphasis of the game would shift to doing whatever it takes to upgrade.

btw i think that i can agree with your interpretation of necromancy %, although i would add that some corpses might be unsuitable because they have been too brutally damaged.
and i also agree that having less shooters or less flyers is a part of a town's personality.

what i don't agree with is the interpretation of generals. i would be very much surprised if a general was an unimportant figure in medieval times.
____________
what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything

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Lith-Maethor
Lith-Maethor


Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
posted July 07, 2003 06:12 PM

ghouls, zombies, vamps...

Quote:
...as i understood, you meant it like:
zombies could downgrade themselves to skeletons, but not the other way, because skeletons don't have flesh.
vampires could downgrade themselves to zombies because zombies have rotten flesh.

but what if it's the bloodsucking that keeps the vampires fresh and otherways they would be ordinary zombies?...


that's pretty much what I meant... even though zombies can turn into skeletons given time, the opposite is impossible...
vampires are a different story... if a vampire doesn't get the blood he/she needs, Final Death comes...

Quote:
...i must say i was surprised at your negative opinion at this upgrade. it would be best if i could provoke you to explain your views more, because you usually have a habit of writing competently and comprehensively (((;...


why... thank you... I guess

Quote:
...the fact that some creatures changed from female to male during an upgrade does not mean that we should say that it's ok to upgrade vampires to hobbits.


gender is no problem since the way I see it the creatures we see on the battlefield are just representative of their type/race... at least in most occasions (that means harpies, mermaids etc are out...) ...my original objection is that zombies have nothing in common with vampires... zombies are humans under a death-like trance to the point where the zombie appears to be soulless (in HoMM myth, it is just a raised corpse...) ...vampires are the bloodsuckers we all know and love (ok, not all of us ) and myth has it that they are humans (and maybe other races) bitten by a vampire and turned...

unless I miss something, i don't see a connection between the two... a rather interesting alternative would be to have the ghoul as a base creature that can be upgraded to zombie or vampire... (and that only if we accept that ghouls are vamp-wannabes)
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