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| Thread: Heroes V: A Strategic Quest |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted June 24, 2003 02:33 AM |
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Specialised heroes/scouts:
I'm not sure that the addition of a parallel tree of scouts would complicate the game. The h4 skill tree/spell system is a lot more complicated than h3 and still it doesn't complicate the game that much. But it can also be done your way, Djive. You could recruit all the heroes from the tavern as three cathegories (might/magic/scout) instead of two, and restrictions could be imposed on each cathegory, like "no might for the scout". Or perhaps each hero could be recruited as a scout and then you would be asked: Do you want to upgrade this hero to the might/magic rank? Supposing you payed 500 gold for the scout, you would have to pay another 500 to do that.
Still I vote for the solution that HyDrA proposed: recruitment from the stables, as separate creatures.
HyDra, did you mean that informations could be bought automatically from your enemy scout or didn't I understand what you said? Because I would never instruct one of my scouts to such an act of treason.
Artifacts:
The specialized artifacts would also be nice. One thing that bothers me in H3 abd H4 is that my hero can wear only two rings although he has 10 fingers, and only one pendant. I agree that there should be a limit under 10, but more than 2. Perhaps some classes of rings would exclude reciprocally others. Also I would allow two pendants. I would also include a "belt-cathegory" in the inventory. I think there are way too many artifacts obtainable on a map for the too many places you can put them on.
Six or eight towns?
Actually I'd go for as many as possible. Though I wouldn't like any of the Insect/water/whatever-else towns in my game. The Pentagram was a well thought system and I'd vote to keep it. Maybe make it a Hexagon. The symetry would be better, and the might centre could contain both the barbarians and the fortress if they decide to revive it (they should).
I like fine the system of h3. All creatures mandatory, all upgradeable. I don't know why they decided to have some non-upgradeable creatures in h2, but my guess is that they simply haven't had thought of it. I know that choosing is important part of strategy, but -speaking for myself- it's a shame not to be able to recruit all the creatures from your castle.
“I don't think the art-budget will allow much more than that.”
my advice for the art-team of h5: don't be hasty, look what happened to h4 - good ideas turned badly into graphics. Not to mention the bad ideas turned (also) into bad graphics. They should push forward for complexity in the design, with better animations for heroes/creatures/spells etcetera. More refinement for the maps, and most important, real castles, not boxes of scattered "so-called-buidings".
grail:
Since you would have to discard one of your fighting stacks to add the non-combatant unit, I wouldn't say that the grail-figure would be too much of an advantage. At most it would equal o an additional set of artifacts.
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Lordskeleton
Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
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posted June 24, 2003 03:47 AM |
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"I would also include a "belt-cathegory" in the inventory"
Sure, we could go with the Morrowind way and carry enchanted underwear if we're discussing max possible number of items holding enchantments. I suppose you're thinking of M&M where you can wear 6 rings and a belt (if I'm not mistaken). I'm quite fond the way it is, and consider a belt more of a clothing accesoire, more than an item of imbued magical proficiencies. As for the rings, I've also questioned the tenfinger-issue since the days of Diablo 1.
I agree that it is something that should be fixed. Still that could mean that they would have to nerf the individual rings strength in order to balance them with other available artifacts with just one slot.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted June 24, 2003 11:01 AM |
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Specialised heroes/scouts:
The problem is not in the skill system but what happens when the hero types encouter each other on the Map.
In H4 then you always have a combat, but a combat is simply not a suitable solution in many cases.
If heroes are different then perhaps it should be tlike this:
If a thief attacks an enemy army, perhaps they can assassinate the enemy Hero.
If a normal Hero led army attacks a thief, then hero should have a percentage chance to flee and if it fails should probably automatically loose the combat.
But if a Thief meets a Scout? (It would be far more unlikely to succeed in an assassination)
Or a Scout meets a Thief?
If you keep the special Heroes separate then I don't think you should allow them to take normal Hero skills. That negates the need for having separate types of Heroes to begin with, and if Heroes are off the battle-field, you can't have two Heroes fighting each other.)
The upgrades were ditched because noone bought them. Everyone upgraded their creatures, making the upgrades more or less redundant. I'd say this is likely a consequence of maps being overall to resource rich.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted June 24, 2003 12:28 PM |
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Strategy vs. RPG the Elements of Heroes V
Djive
“I don't see how the issue of Heroes in Combat affect this at all.”
OK. Let me put it this way, while heroes were in combat, you were encouraged, almost forced to learn some kind of combat to help with you with your battles in Heroes IV. But now, with heroes out of combat, the combat skill may not exist, and you will have more of a free development with your hero, not having to worry about your hero’s weak combat skills. You may focus more on scouting and nobility than attack or defence, so I would say it makes a fairly sizeable difference.
Yes, the way you improve them, in terms of gaining experience will be the same, but with the absence of the combat skill, there will be more opportunity to develop other skills.
“You will still have a lot of combat related skills.”
Yes, you will have attack, defence, and so on, but I don’t believe it will be as imperative to have them in your developing hero as much as one used to.
“They will just change so they affect your army instead of your Hero.”
I am not a big fan of this, and I’m not too sure if it is returning. That said, combat will still not be as important as it used to, as it only affects attack and defence, whereas it used to change the whole hero directly. We’ll see what strategies develop concerning this.
Specialised Heroes (non might/non magic)
“A Lord could be available if you build a Fort, and give better bonuses if you have a Citadel or Castle.”
Yes, the possibilities for these single primary skills are certainly quite large, and they could augment the hero and adventure map characteristics of the game. This ‘Lord’ could be traded between castles with a caravan as you said, and maybe also stationed at a garrison, mine or village to also increase mine production. I’m thinking that Lords should come from their own structure, maybe the Guild of Nobility. Once the Lord become more experienced in the Nobility primary skill, they can also learn estates, mining, etc.
“When it comes to Thieves/Scouts I believe it's probably better to incorporate these in the Hero system, though it's possible to have them as stand-alone Hero types also.”
I would tend to disagree here. I have said this before, why would a player have a developed hero just solely dedicated to scouting the map? I think a less minor role should be played, and thus the creation of the scout. The hero of course will still be able to learn scouting and its subsidiaries, but the scout will enhance them more so.
I don’t believe it is worthwhile having a scout and a thief as separate entities. The division could be as simple as a scout being for the good alignments, and thief for the evil alignments, since they all end up learning the same skills anyway. The scouting primary skill isn’t large enough for two separate units.
“And you will still want your Heroes to have Pathfinding and Logistics don't you?”
Yes, the hero will still have pathfinding and logistics, except they would just function in the normal fashion. When a scout has it, a scout is tailor made for them, and scout is all the scout does. It is a specialised ‘wanderer’.
I don’t see the skill tree for scouts as being too difficult to administer.
Scouting -> pathfinding, stealth, seamanship, logistics, ‘wild magic’, etc.
“If you start out with fully built towns then the Knight and Barbarian Castle has no chance against the Wizard or Warlock Castle.”
Well, if you take it from that perspective, of course. However, when you begin a Heroes II map, for example, Winterlands, the Knight and Barbarian towns had distinct bonuses in order for them to stay on par with the other, stronger castles. Heroes II maps were less structured, and more ‘free-roaming’ with random castles placed on the maps, which are not meant for any specific player. Overall, on most maps, it doesn’t matter which castle you play with, because, as you would know, the steps it takes to get to a Black Dragon are very pricey, and you could have a crusader in ¼ of the time.
“The strategy of taking the cheaper option in the beginning and then upgrade to the expensive option when you have the money will almost always beat the tactics to buy the alternative.”
Ah, but this is only a small section of the choice. You see, presuming there are 9 slots for the creatures, there are six levels, a recruitable total of 12 creatures (true total 18). You are once again forced to choose between what upgrades you have. (Chaos town example)
Level 1 -> Orc
è Centaur ->Centaur Captain
Level 2 -> Gargoyle -> Obsidian Gargoyle
è Troglodyte
Level 3 -> Medusa
è Beholder -> Evil Eye
Level 4 -> Griffin
è Minotaur -> Minotaur King
Level 5 -> Manticore
è Wyvern -> Wyvern Monarch
Level 6 -> Black Dragon
è Hydra -> Chaos Hydra
You must choose carefully what upgrades you take, otherwise you end-up flooding your ranks. (Without sufficient funds it would be increasingly difficult)
Reasons not to choose weaker creature
+} Unable to upgrade due to lacking gold
+} Costs much more
+} More difficult to manage creatures
+} Un-upgradeable creature gives more direct and quick strength to army (better for small, medium maps.)
+} Upgraded creature may not be worth the gold
“No, it's a lot more regular than the system you proposed.”
????? You can see my system above. It is the same for every level. The freedom of choice is abundant. However, with your proposal, it must be perfectly balanced for each town, this means if level 2 in the Order town is the un-upgradeable creatures, then level 2 in the Death town must be the same. This makes it dull, and exceedingly difficult to balance. Choosing between both upgradeable creatures in the same level gives unfavourable results, in my opinion. This is because you do not get to choose if you want an upgradeable creature for that certain level, and with all towns having the same level characteristics, there would be no diversity.
“The player should not be able to opt away creatures that must be in town to begin with.”
If they’re the creatures that the town needs, why wouldn’t the player recruit them anyway? The choosing creature system allows for much more thinking to be done, and much more freedom of choice, coinciding with strategy. One of the best changes in Heroes IV in my opinion.
“The two H4 expansions contained a total of 7 new creatures.”
And all of the Heroes III expansions contained many more than seven creatures. (Even though they weren’t as good). 10 new creatures in Conflux, with many new dragons, as well as the creatures created in Wake of Gods. That is certainly a fair number to add to a game with 8 towns already.
“The four basic Elementals were in H3 RoE.”
Given. But what is RoE? To my knowledge, there is Armageddon’s Blade (AB), Shadow of Death (SoD), and Wake of Gods (WoG).
“The option to add a town was never considered because IMO the game was designed to prevent towns from being added.”
Yes, that was indeed too true. However, I believed I devised a way to incorporate 1 or 2 towns into the equation. But that has been lost in the myriads of posts. It could be in Heroes V: The Future is Upon Us.
Van
“Eh ... You are either very casual player ( in that case why talk about strategy at all?) either very ignorant one.”
Thanks for those kind words. Anyway, what difference does have continuous mirth on the hero have, compared to a hero that does not have continuous mirth? Congratulations, the hero gets an extra/early turn in combat sometimes. Which can help it to repel some spells. But how does this equate to developing a whole strategy around a ‘crusader’? Generally, spells will affect your hero regardless of is you have a mirth or not. Your hero may get the first turn, but it doesn’t amount to much. Life magic focuses on defending and resurrecting, one of which focuses on end game combat. The hero will be defeated within the first turn whether mirth grants you an early turn or not, and if it does, what will you do? Probably cast defender or the appropriate ward on your creatures. It does nothing to prevent the hero from being bombarded, unless you value your hero rather than your whole army.
What I’m saying here is that the strategy doesn’t vary too much from an advanced hero class to the skills the hero has learnt. The game would be much better off without them, and the individual hero specialties need to be brought back to replace them, which would have a more significant effect on the gameplay.
Michael
You are still new here, you will realise that Djive and I have been involved in these sort of discussions for almost two years. It is what we like. We don’t need you telling us what we can and can’t do. If you don’t have an opinion on the topic, it’s better to say nothing at all. 
Vladpopescu79
“I'm not sure that the addition of a parallel tree of scouts would complicate the game.”
I agree. It can be likened to extracting a certain hero, and making them specialise in the scouting skill, and nothing else. It isn’t that much of a complicated tale.
“HyDra, did you mean that informations could be bought automatically from your enemy scout or didn't I understand what you said? Because I would never instruct one of my scouts to such an act of treason.”
LOL. This is what I’m saying: If scouts happen to meet each other on the adventure map, you will be given some options, similar to what occurs when you commence a battle. You can leave the scout, and be on your merry way, you can surrender to the scouts army, or you can offer to trade information. I’m not suggesting the scout automatically buys it. You will offer gold for the information you have received while scouting (outside of the town radius), and likewise for the opponent. Say the area you have covered is worth 5,000 gold, the enemy will pay you 5,000 to see what the scout has discovered. If the scout has discovered 2,000 gold worth of the map, you may decline the offer. Of course, if the enemy scout wants to see the territory that you’ve covered, but you don’t you can always refuse him/her the privilege. But it is indeed a quick way of getting gold.
Artifacts:
Indeed there needs to be more realistic capacity for the artifacts. For the immense number of artifacts created throughout the Heroes Series, the hero does not get to utilise too many at all. I agree that there should be more rings, and more importantly in my opinion, more spaces for miscellaneous artifacts, since they are the most important.
Six or Eight Towns:
Well the prior problem with the Pentagram is that a new town could not be inserted into it. But yes, for the actual in-game gameplay of the system, it was indeed very well implemented and organised, and I didn’t see any faults in its design aside from the one I just mentioned. I would probably go for 7 towns myself, the ones that were present in Heroes IV, except separate Fortress and Dungeon.
“don't be hasty, look what happened to h4 - good ideas turned badly into graphics.”
The artists actually finished approximately 6 months before the designers. This information came from Heroes IV’s art director, Joe McGuffin. The graphics were actually well-done in my opinion, some of the character animations were average, but the overall skill of artistry displayed by the artists was quite talented, and well suited to the Heroes theme.
“They should push forward for complexity in the design, with better animations for heroes/creatures/spells etcetera.”
I think the Hero animations were superb, and at times, quite humorous, with the female mage lifting her wig, and the male sorcerer doing a cartwheel, as well as doing a fancy kick for ranged attacks. Spell animations were a bit poor compared to the stunning visuals in Heroes II. Creature animation wasn’t too bad either.
“More refinement for the maps, and most important, real castles, not boxes of scattered "so-called-buidings".”
One of the best maps I saw NWC concoct was Search for the Old Heroes I, and was slightly disappointed with the effort in Search for the Old Heroes II, despite being able to control them. Zanfa’s Challenge was complex, but some certainly were not. Yes, I agree with you on that last point. The castle art really does need to be taken up a level, and the artists have been shown to be doing that following the release of the Necropolis capitol.
LordSkeleton
“I suppose you're thinking of M&M where you can wear 6 rings and a belt (if I'm not mistaken). I'm quite fond the way it is, and consider a belt more of a clothing accesoire, more than an item of imbued magical proficiencies.”
You have a point here. The M&M way is certainly more RPG, and will probably not find its way into the game. The way it is seems to be fairly O.K., but I would like maybe 4 rings overall. However, the whole scheme relates to the strategic decisions, so it will probably stay the way it is.
“Still that could mean that they would have to nerf the individual rings strength in order to balance them with other available artifacts with just one slot.”
I’d say no to this suggestion. We must remember the element of strategy in this, and I don’t believe it is justified to decrease the importance of the rings to make them balanced. If anything, it should stay as it is in this respect, since the left over rings can be transferred to another hero.
Djive II
The scouts, when they encouter each other on the map, will be given some trading options, which I explained in detail to vladpopescu in this post.
Your proposals with scout meeting thief and the thief assassinating a hero are interesting. However, one hurdle we must strive to jump over is the way to implement this without being forgetful of strategy. The only reason I can see a thief assassinating a hero is something to do with luck, not pure development.
"The upgrades were ditched because noone bought them."
That is part of the reason, but I am giving them a choice with my system.
I’m glad to see that so many people have a profound interest in the ‘strategy’ side of things for the upcoming game. I thought I was a part of a dieing breed. Obviously not Thanks, people.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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jpakianathan
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 24, 2003 04:26 PM |
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My ideas on HOMMV creatures and heroes
Hi there,
I have played HOMM11 and HOMM3 but could not get into HOMMIV. Anyway, here are some thoughts of the types of castles / creatures that could be intoduced into HOMMV. I have read elsewhere that there are 6 castle types to be introduced in HOMMV. I for one believe there should be much more than this. Below are the ones I would hope to see.
CREATURES
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The stats for each creature should be as follows
Attack:
Defense
Damage
Spell Resistance:
Spells Known
Hit Points
Movement (in hexes?)
Swamp (Evil)
Level 1 Gnolls - Standard melee foot soldier
Level 1 Lizardmen - Tougher Soldier with melee/ranged attack
Level 2 Serpentfly - Flying with fire bite damage
Level 2 Giant Lizard - Lots hit points + poisonous bite
Level 3 Basilick - Can turn target to stone
Level 4 Gorgon - Similar to HOMM3 attributes
Level 5 Hydra - Multi pronged attck with no retaliation
Level 6 Giant Wrym - Can borrow underground to any location with massive bite attack
Undead (Evil)
Level 1 Skeleton - Standard melee attck
Level 1 Zombie - Can cause disease
Level 2 Ghast - Can cause fear to target
Level 2 Vampire - Life drain attack.
Level 3 Death Knight - Fear + % chance of 50% damage
Level 4 Lich - Range attack / Can cause small number of spells
Level 5 Ghost Dragon - Similar to HOMM3
Level 6 Death Stalker - Replenishes hit points when a stack is killed, has a samll % of outrightly killing the stack
Magic (Nuetral)
Level 1 Gremlin - Ranged attck / poor melee
Level 1 Gargoyle - Flying / melee / high defense
Level 2 Golem - Melee / High defense
Level 2 Mage - Has own Spells / poor melee + range attack
Level 3 Djini - Has own spells / good melee attack
Level 4 Naga - Has 2 melee attacks to same stack. No retaliation
Level 5 Titan - High hit points / high melee / High Range attack
Level 6 Magic Dragon - Has own Offensive spells
Psionic (Nuetral)
Level 1 Footsoldier - small % Can dominate other level 1 creatures
Level 1 Chameleon - Always under invisibility spell till first melee attack
Level 2 Psionic Priest - Can heal but not ressurect other psionic type creatures once each round during command / good melee attack
Level 2 Beholder - Causes panic / fear effects / can cast spells / powerful range attack
Level 3 Psionic Mage - Can cast spells /
Level 4 Mind Flayer - Can dominate up to level 4 creatures / mind attck adjacent / need save or target creature stack goes insane (attacks nearest creature wether friend or foe)
Level 5 Psionic Giant - Psionic yell affects cone of creatures. (3 hexes) Loads of hit points and powerful melee
Level 6 Psionic Dragon - Resistant to magic + psionic magic breath attack (6 hexes)
Barbarian (Nuetral)
Level 1 Halfling - Poor melee / Good Range attack. Can steal artifacts during battle from enemy heroes if adjacent to enemy hero
Level 1 Orcs - Average melee / Average range attack
Level 2 Wolfrider - Good melee attack
Level 2 Nomad - Can move quickly on battle map - Good melee attack
Level 3 Ogre - Powerful melee attack. Large hit points
Level 4 Cyclops - Similar to HOMM3
Level 5 Witch doctor - Has own spells and healing powers
Level 6 Greater Behemoth - The most number of hit points of the game. Powerful melee attack. No retaliation
Nature (Good)
Level 1 Centaur - As in HOMM3
Level 1 Elven Archer - 2 ranged attack per round
Level 2 Troll - Regeneration
Level 2 Pegasi - Flying - magic resistant
Level 3 Nature Priest - Healing and defensive nature spells
Level 4 Dendroid - Tough defense and roots enemies down
Level 5 Mountain Giant - High hit points. High melee
Level 6 Green Dragon - Poisonous breath weapon / melee attack
Engineer (Good)
Level 1 Pikeman - Good defense, average melee attack
Level 1 Archerman - High range attack / poor melee attack
Level 2 Knight - Jousting bonus
Level 2 Dwarf Warrior - Tough melee with high defense / spell resistance
Level 3 Human Calvary - Tough melee with high movement
Level 4 Cannon Unit - Most powerful range attack of Level 4 unit. Range attack damages creature stack and creatures around target.Massive danage on castle walls
Level 5 Mechanical Giant - Highest hit points of level 5 units. Big defense. Good melee.
Level 6 Dwarfen Tank - High Range attack/ Can attempt to roll over creatures of smaller size. Very strong defense + hit points.
Occult (Evil)
Level 1 Imp - Similar to HOMM3
Level 1 Hellhound - Similar to HOMM3
Level 2 Medusa - Similar to HOMM3
Level 2 Pit Fiend - Can attack cretures 2 hexes away with whip
Level 3 Demon - High melee / High defense / Cause fear
Level 4 Evil Summoner - High melee. Can summon any level Occult creature each round of battle. (Obviously, higher percentage of summoning level1 as opposed to level 6 creature)
Level 5 Devil - No retaliation / small % Can summon demons during battle each round of battle
Level 6 Dark Angel - No retaliation / Can ressurect dead creature stack into demons
Life (Good)
Level 1 Halbieder - Average stats / melee attack
Level 1 Crossbowman - One range attack / poor melee
Level 2 Life Priest - Can cast healing + life spells / Good range attack
Level 2 Palladin - A certain % extra attaack factored when attcking evil creatures
Level 3 Unicorn - Similar to HOMM3
Level 4 Life Summoner - Can summon any level life creature each round of battle. (Obviously, higher percentage of summoning level 1 as opposed to level 6 creature)
Level 5 Gold Dragon - Good bite attack / High hit points
Level 6 Light Angel - Can ressurect creatures back from dead
Elemental (Nuetral)
Level 1 Sprite - Poor melee -Can stun creatures
Level 1 Leprechaun - High defense and high resistance to magic. Can cast spells
Level 2 Earth Elemental - Similar to HOMM3
Level 2 Water Elemental- Similar to HOMM3
Level 3 Air Elemental - Similar to HOMM3
Level 4 Elemental Summoner - Can summon any level elemental creature each round of battle. (Obviously, higher percentage of summoning level 1 as opposed to level 6 creature)
Level 5 Energy Elemental - Energy in the form of lightning attack. All creatures adjacent affected. Stuns creatures
Level 6 Fire Dragon - Fire Breath weapon attack
HEROES
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The question to ask is , should heroes just revert to being the generals of the battle and not be involved in fighting itself.
Its just not realistic for heroes only to be able to fight heroes or heroes not being able to fight at all.
The way this can be overcome is such that, a heroes attck/ defense influences the creatures with hime/her. However, the heroe should be weak as a Level 1 where other level 1 cretures could possibly defet him/her, still be defeatable by a stack of Level 6 creatures at level 30. This would make the game then more balanced. No one likes to see a single heroe slaying 10 titans at once.
When a heroe goes up a level, The player should be able to decide what attribute to raise rather than just have 2 choices. There should be certain caps to the attributes that a hero cant raise anymore so that heores are unique based on the heores original character class.
Thats aired my thoughts. What do you guys/girls think?
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van
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 24, 2003 06:36 PM |
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"Your hero may get the first turn, but it doesn’t amount to much. Life magic focuses on defending and resurrecting, one of which focuses on end game combat. The hero will be defeated within the first turn whether mirth grants you an early turn or not, and if it does, what will you do? Probably cast defender or the appropriate ward on your creatures"
+10 morale - your hero is almost always first.
You will cast sanctuary. Now you can take his heroes with your angels while your heroe is safe. Furthermore , your paladin can fight around and you dont need to worry at all . If he falls , there is your crusader (safe in sanctuary) to resurect him. At that point he may step out from sanctuary cose you killed enough of oponents creatures. Fail to ensure this enviroment and you dont have chance against death. Its that much important. And simple.
Its perfectly possible that you will not have sanctuary at all.
However , your main goal is to prepare yourself best you can , not to rely on luck. For instance , you may have sanctuary , but before you can cast it , he will kill your hero. Because , most probably, there will be assassian ( class bonuse + potion of speed = +6 speed ) . Bravo. You didnt prepare yourself. How good strategist you are?
Most certainly its not "whole strategy around a ‘crusader’" , its just one small ( but highly important) part of yor whole strategy plan.
For Life and Death at least. Other towns , other advanced classes.
"The game would be much better off without them, and the individual hero specialties need to be brought back to replace them, which would have a more significant effect on the gameplay."
So, instead of skill combinatorics where you can alter and guide process in desired direction , you propose "oh god , give me Hack or Gunnar , and dont give me Ingham" type of strategy?
Now , thats realy strategic.
May be more fun , but dont confuse it with strategy.
What I would like to see are higer and highest classes with much greater level of controle for player.
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted June 25, 2003 02:20 AM |
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Now I see, HyDrA what you ment by that... still, for that money, the scout will provide all the information he knows? Since he first left your castle it will be easy for your enemy to locate the start of his journey with ease. that means giving up your position. And in some maps, that's a very imortant thing not to be done. The scout should be instructed to give only some of the information away, but that tends to become complicated. still it can be worked on, it's a good idea.
Artifacts: I have to admit that I took my inspiration from Diablo (and not M&M, which I never played, btw). Still the belt seems a normal artifact to me, more than a piece of clothing. And mind you that I haven't said anything yet about riding accesories (like spurs, and others...)
Artworks: perhaps you're right, but something was gained and something was lost from h3 to h4. When creatures look good they move with spasms, and if they move well something's wrong with the aspect (you have to admitt at least the bad design for all horses in the game). I won't start my complaints about the vampire, I guess you know all the fuss I've made over them...
To end with, I'm not saying it's bad, but it doesn't rise to expectations. I'm talking about details. It's all about details.
New idea about the Grail:
I said that the grail must protect your town. Here's a way: the grail-structure can act as a shielding dome, under which your race can enjoy the climate they prefer, for example: if the wizards have their castle on green fields, the grail-structure can convert the areas surrounding the castle into snowy deserts. The wizards love them and the snow could (aside the bonus it would bring to the morale of the defenders) slow down the attackers. both on the adventure map and on the combat screen.
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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EmperorSly
Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
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posted June 25, 2003 12:50 PM |
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on upgrades and advanced classes
CLASS:
i agree hydra that advanced classes are not really big consideration in the game, since the class bonuses are very minor. but thats no reason to ditch the classes, instead its possible to increase the bonuses so they start to matter. another place where advanced class already matters is limiting the skills offered on levelup -- its much easier for priest to get GM Life magic than it is for Archmage, since priest gets life advances offered every time on levelup. yet even with this in mind, advanced class is not important enough in HOMM4, so lets increase the bonuses.
UPGRADE:
upgrades are cool, when they are rare and important. i like the upgrade system hydra proposed -- it adds depth to choosing between creatures. but it still keeps the element of choice within one level of creatures: e.g. which level 2 creature is my guy -- orc, goblin, or goblin knight? strongest problem: when there is any kind of resource abundance and building cost is taken out of the consideration (it often is) the choice becomes automatic and obvious -- centaur captain is better than centaur, so choice is to upgrade; orc is better than centaur but worse than centaur captain, but since we're going to upgrade anyway, there's no point to go for orcs.
therefore i offer a different type of upgrade system. creatures on every level should be upgradeable, but one is allowed to actually build only one or two upgrades in a town, so its up to the player which level creatures he will upgrade. the upgrades should become available only late in the game, lets say one after completion of 6th level dwelling and one after 5th level mage guild. being hard to get, the benefits from upgrading should be also great. since the upgrading possibility comes in mid-game, it could involve serious improvement in lower level creatures, so that they become competitive with higher level ones -- normally the level 1 creatures have become redundant by the time you get dragons, but with this system you have the chance to upgrade your level 1 people so noticeably you get basically a level 2 (or 3?) creature with level 1 type weekly growth... or you could still go ahead and have better dragons. the upgraded creatures should be the "star" units of your whole army, but each highly different, so its your choice what sort of stars with what capabilities you will upgrade into your army, and also how you manage to live before getting those "stars".
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Nasty
Known Hero
castor nebun si orb pe cinste
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posted June 27, 2003 02:52 AM |
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i was thinking about the nobility skill...for more beauty in the game..the hero who has nobility is granted for a special building in the town he wishes to "rule"...it would be his home...which could be improved while the skill improves ...or the heroes level rises...it would grant much luck and morale...and it would look great in the castle...and if the ideea of two screens town is accepted the heroes rezidence is at the border beetwen the two screens...i know you will say it;s pointless but it would put an accent on the town the heroes reprezents...and it would look great!every improvement of the heroes house will cost a certain amount of money...but the town could benefit from it either...with morale and luck and even creatures growth...and the hero would have the luck and morale at maximum!And when the hero is in the castle where his house is he could be seen walking through the two screens admiring his home town!
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You can trick me with food.Possesions mean nothing to a navajo.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted June 27, 2003 01:05 PM |
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Miscellaneous Strategy
It is obvious that many of us have very different definitions of ‘strategy’. And in this game of ours, it is often difficult to know what pure strategy is. Some may find choosing creatures as being strategic, others may see it as a waste of the creatures not chosen. Whatever one’s definition, we can safely place our money on the fact that Heroes V will not be too similar to Heroes IV as it will be to Heroes II and III. Quests and storylines will play a much smaller role in all maps (except fan made ones), thus encouraging the player to make decisions that directly affect the strategy of the game. There will be many things changing with Heroes V, as would be expected, so Heroes IV lovers, I suggest you don’t get too attached to it.
Jpakianathan
“I have read elsewhere that there are 6 castle types to be introduced in HOMMV. I for one believe there should be much more than this.”
Yes, I agree that 6 towns are not sufficient to the needs of such a diverse strategy game. However, I believe at least 2 of the ten towns you suggest will become surplus once the game continues. I would say 7 towns is about perfect, in my opinion. We can start of with 6, then add one more in the expansion. 10 is too much, it will probably just strain the developers as to making the towns unique (concerning creatures, heroes, classes, background, etc.)
“Attack:
Defense
Damage
Spell Resistance:
Spells Known
Hit Points
Movement (in hexes?)”
I have a few more to add to that. Ranged Attack, Ranged Defence, Speed. I believe the first two are quite good innovations for Heroes IV, since melee and ranged are difference. Yes, movement should be in hexes, but the question is, how big should the hexes be?
Swamp (Evil)
Level 5: Giant Wyrm: Can burrow underground to any location with a massive bite attack
Level 6: Hydra: Multi pronged attack with no retaliation, and regeneration
Yes, regeneration. In true mythology, Hydras had the ability to grow two heads back every time one was cut off. The nearest Heroes equivalent to this is regeneration. This would make them rather powerful, but I’m not complaining.
Concerning the creature levels, two level two’s are too many per town. I am assuming there are no upgrades? And since you said that you played Heroes
II and III, but did not like IV, the choosing system is not present, so there will be a total of 8 creatures.
Heroes
“The question to ask is , should heroes just revert to being the generals of the battle and not be involved in fighting itself.”
Indeed, that was the question to ask. However, it has been answered by our good friend JVC (Jon Van Caneghem), and we are now all sure that heroes will not grace the battlefield with their presence. Instead, they will revert to the sidelines, as always used to be the case.
“Its just not realistic for heroes only to be able to fight heroes or heroes not being able to fight at all.”
You’re probably right. However, I believe the constant transition between the battlefield and the sidelines would be, strategically (and in balance) too difficult to employ in such a game. I applaud the idea, as I have done in the past, but the chances of it being applied are quite slim already.
“No one likes to see a single heroe slaying 10 titans at once.”
Quite true, but I have never made this happen. From the other side of the spectrum, no one wants to see 1 titan slaying 4 heroes in the same combat, which is entirely possible. The problem with Heroes in Combat is it is too difficult to regulate the balance between them, other heroes, and creatures, all at once. My idea is to have heroes fighting only against heroes, but that would pre-occupy them and us from the main combat, and there may be no space to engage in such a combat.
“The player should be able to decide what attribute to raise rather than just have 2 choices.”
Not total choice, but more differentiating choices than the hero has now, pertaining to the guidelines I placed in the initial post. A choice of all of the skills available would be too easy and just negating the strategy from the game, if that’s what you mean. The skill choices should be based more on the individual hero, and less on random choice.
Van
“+10 morale - your hero is almost always first.
You will cast sanctuary.”
Almost always yes, however, there have been known to be rare (silly) occurrences where this is not the case. For example, the (sometimes unavoidable) mixture of opposite alignments.
The main problem I see with the sanctuary spell is while your own units can be positioned perfectly, so can the opponents. So, instead of casting sanctuary, maybe you should try mass fervor to make the units invulnerable to spells(under sanctuary), others you may get pounced upon the turn the hero exits sanctuary. However, I believe this can still be achieved if you are a crusader or not. It is likely that you will still have fairly high morale, and if not, mirth can simply be cast, and with two heroes, you are not sacrificing much.
“you may have sanctuary , but before you can cast it , he will kill your hero.”
However, if your hero is on the back lines, other creatures can block the way effectively for one turn, even if it is just 1 peasant. If the enemy hero is an assassin, he probably wont have a great arsenal of spells, so it shouldn’t matter too much who gets the first turn unless the assassin does have deadly spells. (Vampiric Touch, etc.)
“For Life and Death at least. Other towns , other advanced classes.”
And you’re going to alter your whole hero development skills to attain the exact advanced class? What happens when there are more than 3 towns? Also, you can’t decide totally on what advanced class to choose, as many of the skills are offered randomly. Would you call choosing a random skill strategy? Because you most certainly can’t choose any skill you want all the time, it is sometimes the luck of the draw.
“So, instead of skill combinatorics where you can alter and guide process in desired direction , you propose "oh god , give me Hack or Gunnar , and dont give me Ingham" type of strategy?”
You can alter the process? I highly doubt this. No one can alter the skills to the full extent. It is but a small portion of the game – advanced classes. You believe that the advanced class you get is more important than the skills you choose? Think about it, for every skill you advance in, it is like getting a new advanced class. What I’m trying to say is, Advanced classes are superfluous, the change very little in terms of overall strategy, and it can side-track you from more important skill development, which you have displayed to me just then.
Vladpopescu79
“still, for that money, the scout will provide all the information he knows?”
Only if the scout wants to. Remember, it does get you a lot of money, and if you’re desperate, I’d probably consider selling what I’ve learnt.
“Since he first left your castle it will be easy for your enemy to locate the start of his journey with ease.”
Not necessarily. The radius of the caste is where the journey will begin from, and what you are given is the radius view of surroundings, not the exact path the scout took, otherwise it would be too easy. However, the scout may have been caravanned to a garrison, so it may not lead the enemy to your castle. 
“The scout should be instructed to give only some of the information away, but that tends to become complicated. still it can be worked on, it's a good idea.”
Yes, that would get slightly complicated, so I’m not sure how that would function. However, by just implementing this idea, you’ll always know the option is there, and it is up to you if you want to sell the area which you’ve scouted. It is the same for the AI, if you’re really rich, and the AI isn’t you’ll pay for it. It also may give you a hint about the AI’s financial position (or a human player’s for that matter.) It may also be used to lure the player into a trap, the buyer thinking the army’s really weak, (when he looks on the thieves guild it is weak since the army is in a caravan) he comes to the castles, and gets slaughtered.
Artifacts:
“Still the belt seems a normal artifact to me, more than a piece of clothing.”
Well, I wouldn’t see a problem if the belt was actually an artifact, but the artifact rating sits better with armour than it does with a steel belt or similar. But I don’t see why both cannot be incorporated.
Artwork:
Yes, most horses in the game looked quite poorly designed, with the exception of the Dark Champion, that horse looked pretty good to me (all dressed up in its black armour, very stylish)
The sprites wings were a bit of an illusion, and they looked like they were moving fast but, in fact, it was probably just the blurring.
The details on the landscape and ocean were very poor (terrain), but on the battlefield they were very good, and the creatures were generally well designed. (I actually quite liked the vampires, except from the modern looking tuxedo; maybe a cape would have done better.)
Grail:
“I said that the grail must protect your town.”
Yep. I’m with you on this one. The grail is sacred to the town, and really shouldn’t have any outside affects apart from the immediate land around it.
“the grail-structure can act as a shielding dome, under which your race can enjoy the climate they prefer”
Ah yes, I see what you mean by this. Quite a good idea, except it may have a slightly subtle effect on the player. A good idea nonetheless. The grail should also do something more powerful such as (you can actually see it during a siege) such as cast random beneficial spells on your creatures, pertaining of course to the alignment. The spells should probably not exceed level 3 or 4, and are sourced from your mage guild.
EmperorSly
Class:
“since the class bonuses are very minor.”
Exactly. The class bonuses are probably too insignificant to place in the game, and can easily be replaced by hero specialties, which would allow for more unique heroes and strategic gameplay for skills based on the hero’s biography. Plus the bonuses are better and more well-rounded.
“but thats no reason to ditch the classes, instead its possible to increase the bonuses so they start to matter.”
That’s a possible solution, but I believe that will only encourage the player to relinquish the development of skills to chase after the exact advanced hero class specialties. They should be dropped, in my opinion, they only complicate the game unnecessarily, and there are many better options to implement than this. (BTW, it is more RPG than strategy)
“its much easier for priest to get GM Life magic than it is for Archmage, since priest gets life advances offered every time on levelup.”
Yes, indeed, and this is probably a positive for the skill development, since you are automatically offered the skills that you are likely to take. However, as you say, it hinders the development of the archmage if you do in fact want a specific type of magic, since the archmage doesn’t specialise in one specific school.
Upgrade System:
“upgrades are cool, when they are rare and important.”
Yes, if there are too many, it just seems as though you are kind of expected to get them, and it becomes quite difficult to manage them without caravans. This another reason to keep caravans in Heroes V.
“i like the upgrade system hydra proposed -- it adds depth to choosing between creatures.”
Thank you, that was kind of the aim. Making the decision a bit more difficult, and incorporating the sorely missed upgrades into it also. By having them, you are required to make a choice on, not just creature strengths but also your financial strengths, as well as choosing the right creature for the map. A creature that has the ability to upgrade entails very different strategy to one that cannot upgrade.
“when there is any kind of resource abundance and building cost is taken out of the consideration (it often is) the choice becomes automatic and obvious -- centaur captain is better than centaur, so choice is to upgrade;”
Yes, that is also true. However, one would still have to be careful, since if the player chooses the upgradeable creature every time, it will be difficult to manage 12 creatures in the one army without recruit another hero which will go relatively unused except for scouting (and that’s a scout’s job).
Of course, with every system, there is a small flaw. There can never be a perfect system that is intertwined perfectly with the adventure map and balance of the game. You’ve just got to choose the one which has the smallest problem.
Your Upgrade System:
I find it to be very logical indeed. I am assuming that every creature has the capabilities to be upgraded? I actually had thought of limiting the number of upgraded creatures that a town could have, forcing the player to choose. But I chose against it, since it is forcing the player to do something (and maybe make a wrong choice), and I like the player to have the freedom of choice, so the player can only blame himself if he upgrades too many.
I like you logic in that the upgrades should only be available until all base structures have been built. It makes them feel as if they are very important, as you said before, they are good if they’re considered important.
I’d say the level 1’s should get better, about to the extent of a level 2 (un-upgraded) since if you’re going to choose to upgrade your level 1, it had better be good.
I agree that when you upgrade, it should be worth the upgrade. It is pointless upgrading if the bonus isn’t much, unless you receive 6,000 gold per day. (which you wouldn’t until very late in the game if at all.) Your upgrade system highlights very well the importance of upgrading, and that it is a precious commodity, very well done.
Largest Downfalls:
Freedom of choice is low (restrictions in upgrading – which is also a positive)
Most people would straight away go for level 5 and 6 to upgrade, making the low level upgrades superfluous.
Execllent theory, very praiseworthy.
Nasty
Yes, it appears the nobility skill has been thrown around a bit in this thread.
I believe the Lord (or nobility hero who could also be called a Noble) should have their own building where they are recruited from. For their nobility to have an affect, they have to be situated in the town. (All sub-heroes have a special purpose) more specifically in that building.
“would be his home...which could be improved while the skill improves”
I don’t believe the building itself should be improved, but maybe the Lord should be improved, and the structure is kind of upgraded with every few levels the Lord takes so the abilities are used to the full extent.
“town is accepted the heroes rezidence is at the border beetwen the two screens”
I concur with that statement. Being the hero, I believe he should have the responsibility of taking care of the town. If the hero is out, that area is also the Captain’s Quarters (like in Heroes II). The Lord’s structure should be on the important side, since I don’t think Nobles would interact with the lower levels of society.
Your idea sounds pretty good. I do believe there should be a marker symbolising that the town has a Lord, but it may be difficult to employ without ruining the town’s artwork. The Lord should indeed affect things like morale, luck, income, but not creature growth. That is a large issue and should be handled by a separate structure in the town.
Again, I thank you all for your replies, and I hope the steady replies keep on coming.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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van
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 27, 2003 04:04 PM |
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"However, if your hero is on the back lines, other creatures can block the way effectively for one turn, even if it is just 1 peasant."
Actualy nothing can stop devils.
And there are blackys and phenixes with area attack ...
But I am realy not passionate enough to repeat same and obvious things over and over again so I am off.
Just one sugestion , over in TOH forum , coincidently (realy) , discussion on sanctuary and crusaders thingy is in progress. Take a peek and see how important this is.
Its allso good example how advanced class bonuses should not be too poewerfool.
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted June 28, 2003 02:49 AM |
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“I have read elsewhere that there are 6 castle types to be introduced in HOMMV. I for one believe there should be much more than this.”
Perhaps 8 towns is the best number. They ought to be Human(life), Wizard(order), Forest(nature), Warlock(chaos), Necros(death), Barbarians(might). These are only 7 of them. the eigth must be the opposite of nature. Tough job to find it is... perhaps NWC squashed their brains too for h4 to find it. They never did though...
So, lets see... natural -----> unnatural, perhaps illusory?
The hexagram would be:
life
order nature
might
unnatural chaos
death
It is not the right way though, because the arrangement is right only on diagonals. Life through order to unnatural is strange just like chaos death between unnatural and chaos.
And then, nature should be in the middle.Might would have difficulties then. So I'll leave it here for now. I'm in difficulty too. 
"but the question is, how big should the hexes be?"
I think that is a huge question in terms of creature dimmensions and their movement. i was never able to understand how a tiger can travel almost as much as a black dragon. However, the dimensions of the creatures improved from h3 to h4. now a halfing is really dwarfed by the titan. But there are other flows, and I'm not sure that they can even be solved. the only way would be to zoom in the battle screen, but I think that would affect the cursivity and general aspect of the game. As you see, I raise more questions than tend to have ideas.
to return to the question, I think one hex should be the smallest dimmension possible (size of the smaller creature, perhaps even half of it). Only this would allow enough precision.
"The problem with Heroes in Combat is it is too difficult to regulate the balance between them, other heroes, and creatures, all at once"
I liked fine both versions of fighting/non-combatant heroes. I think heroes as fighters can be refined to match the balance needed. You can raise their defence and lower their attack - that would render imposible the slain of 4 heroes by 1 titan and would help you with the "10 titans in one strike" problem. But in my opinion this is not a problem. Heroes are still humans, so fragile, but very "upgradeable". Their weakness in the beginning adds to the strategy, not allowing you to attack anything anytime, given that the map is acceptable (I've seen enough maps where you cannot dream of conquering an ore pit until the 3'rd week - hilarious!). So given a good scenario, present heroes can work just fine. If it was me deciding, I would have kept them in the battle.
"it does get you a lot of money, and if you’re desperate, I’d probably consider selling what I’ve learnt."
Yes, probably, there are some cases of desperation when you can give information for money. But very few. I'd say none that I can think of. This is why:
When would you accept to give your enemy the map view for money? When you've already discovered it, collected everything possible, and he hasn't.(otherwise he wouldn't pay for it) That is a faint possibility. Still, with that knowledge, he can put you in trouble, since you defeated the guards, he has clear ways, knows exactly where to go, what to flag, where are you (more or less, as we'll see). So you'll have to contain him. Perhaps you would need the money to recruit all the creatures in your castle. But since you discovered the map, you already are supposed to have a pretty nice income. So why?
About the problem of tracing the castle based on the scout info.
I think you can infer that. If you have the radius then you can detect the mean trajectory, and the castle has to be somewhere on the edge of the cleared grounds. usually the maps are easy to decypher, and rarely are 3 places where the castle could be, after eliminating some "black area". Usually two, easily turned into one by precise scouting. So, you see, the enemy WILL see you. The garison could help this, but the drawback is that it must exist first of all on all maps.
"Quite a good idea, except it may have a slightly subtle effect on the player"
Why? What effect?
“since the class bonuses are very minor.”
indeed small, and I thnk they were never meant to make a difference. Does anybody pursue a special class only for that bonus? Hope not. It remains I think only for diversity and pleasure of gaming. just like a personal story for each hero.
But I'd really like the special skill for each hero back. That was really adding strategy.
The upgrading system:
EmperorSly had a fine idea. Still I would't add too much power to a 1'st level creature. But you are right, if I have to choose between levels make the lowers better, otherwise you 're not really asking me to make a choice but accept a fact. the other way is make tham all available in the ranks of my army and keep them at initial value. I maintain my idea that chice bringd frustration for me. i want to be able to use ALL my troops. Unused options (even if means freedom of choice, strategy, indepth thinking and other skills that I may have or not, ) ) make me feel that I lose some of the fun.
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted June 28, 2003 05:02 AM |
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I have one question for everybody:
Were there RPG elements in Heroes 1,2&3 ???
YES, there were RPG elements long before Heroes 4 existed. And those elements are not going out of Heroes 5. So to all the concerned fans of the game that the RPG element will be out I'll say don't worry.
Sure the emphasys will be on the strategy - the right way to go - but the core RPG elements of the heroes series will remain.
See, with Heroes 4 many things were turned upside down when it comes to thr RPG element in the series. So people only think that the storytelling and the heroes in battle are the main RPG elements, and that if they go away Heroes 5 will become pure strategy game. Wrong!
The RPG elements in the heroes games are if mainly in the hero classes. And this is present from the beggining of the series. Barbarian, Warlock, Knight, Sorceress. Later Wizard, Necromancer. Followed by Beastmaster, Overlord, Cleric, Witch, Battle Mage etc. Sure the new system of skills in H4 was more focused to make the hero classes more distinct, and don't forget that JVC has even designed new skill system, and that the greater difference between the classes will be supported. So there you go.
Also one of the core elements in the CRPG's is the party. Having a party of several members, each with their own specialties that help one another overcome problems. Well isn't this CRPG element present in the heroes series since the beggining? YES it is. The stacks. This is something that everybody overlooks when speaking of the Heroes RPG elements, yet it is the core of the Heroes RPG system.
It's the stacks of the creatures and the battles that give the RPG flavour to the heroes games. Because each stack is acting like one creature on the battlefield, even when there are hundreds of creatures within that stack. And if you look at the things this way, the armies turn to be parties made of 7 members, with their power determined by the number of creatures in a given stack. And they way you use them and combine them in the battle is giving the RPG feeling of leading parties made of several members.
When making strategy/RPG game-mix the designers must balance the dose of the RPG element and the strategy element. Heroes 1,2,3 were good examples of such balance. But heroes 4 overdid the RPG side and lost the strategy - the core - of the series.
See, the elements like:
1. too much map objects that are much similar to one another but are there for the sake of the object numbers or are insignificant to the gameplay but are there for the sake of the RPG element,
2. too many border-gates related quests. Do this if you want to pass trough here, do this and I'll reward you that. it's again perfect example of taking the strategy out in favor of the "RPG" elements. It has becom superfluous in H4.
-have ruined the H4. And by taking out these elements and by taking out the heroes from the battles, heroes 5 won't lose it's rpg elements.
The beauty of the Heroes games is in their simplicity, not in the complexity. Heroes 4 was made more complex because of the "RPG" elements that proved as redundant for a game like heroes and the game lost the beauty. Taking those things out means simplicity again. And that's a good thing.
And about the story - there WILL be story. Only this tiem the plaer won't be bombarded every few turns with masses of text to read. The game will be focused on strategy - yes, but between scenarios in the campaign game there will be cutscenes that tell a STORY. Heck, those who say that this is not enough should play the H2 campaign. The best campaign ever in the Heroes series. It has the right amount of storytelling and strategy in it. And JVC designed H2, and he is designing H5. So why whory than?
One thing though that I think they should strenghten in H5, in order to give the town greater Heroes RPG feeling, if I may say it that way, is giving the towns more flavor as in H2. Like Hydra said, the Wizard town in H2 was focused on magic from the beggining of the game, while the Barbarian was focused on power in numbers, Warlock was best at flying, Knight at defence and fast development, Sorceress in range power. They towns in H5 should be designed this way. One should have the best flying units, other should suck at flying and have no fliers but have strong ground pounders, third should be focused on magic and so on. But I do believe that JVC is already doing this in H5. He said two very important things that back up my presumption: towns for H5 are designed in the rock-paper-scissors manner, and towns will be built around themes and each will get it's own unique set of spells.
So these are my five cents on the topic. And I wish to thank all the posters who participated in this thread. It's surely a pleasure to participate in such quiality threads. And also big thanks to Hydra for starting this thread and his thoughts on the subject.
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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van
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 28, 2003 09:45 AM |
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"The beauty of the Heroes games is in their simplicity, not in the complexity"
one IMHO would be nice here.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted July 03, 2003 01:33 PM |
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RPG in Previous Series?
There was, as Svetac pointed out, RPG in Heroes I-III, as well as IV. However, this form of RPG is very different to what we saw in Heroes IV. Heroes I – III came in the forms of different hero base classes, as well as some inclusion of storyline. There are, like strategy, many definitions of the words Role Playing Game elements. However, one point is for sure, the RPG elements in the previous versions of Heroes are much less prominent than the RPG elements used in Heroes IV, and that is certainly noticeable, especially in campaigns.
Van
“Actualy nothing can stop devils.
And there are blackys and phenixes with area attack ...”
Given that nothing can stop devils. Black Dragons and Phoenix’s area attack can be avoided with the correct format of the troops (wide spacing).
“Its allso good example how advanced class bonuses should not be too poewerfool.”
Indeed, too powerful would certainly mean that the attention from skills could indeed be diverted to getting the right advanced class, which is not the right way to go in my mind.
Remember, we play different games. I play single player, and you play multiplayer (I presume since you refer to the ToH board), and these two entail very different strategies.
Vladpopescu79
“Perhaps 8 towns is the best number.”
Perhaps it is. However, you raise that ever-important dilemma of the opposite of nature. This is why I have seven towns, each town is unique, and the developers are not forced into making a town that is ill founded or not well represented. Although, one could make the argument that Conflux is the opposite of Nature and should be included. However, I believe that the elementals should not be recruited in castles.
My town types:
Life/Haven/Castle/Knight
Death/Necropolis/Necromancer
Chaos/Asylum/Dungeon/Warlock
Order/Academy/Tower/Wizard/
Might/Stronghold/Barbarian
Nature/Preserve/Rampart/Sorceress
Then, a blend of Swamp units and inferno units. Could be difficult if it works this way. An alternative is just to have Inferno – as Fortress are mixed with Dungeon to make Chaos.
Hell/Inferno
Lucky for us that the hexagon type system probably won’t be returning in Heroes V, so we won’t need to wrack our brains trying to think about it or its consequences. The hexagon restricted the additions of towns, and I don’t believe NWC will make that mistake again.
“I think that is a huge question in terms of creature dimmensions and their movement. i was never able to understand how a tiger can travel almost as much as a black dragon.”
I agree with both sentences. I suggested hexes that were halfway (in size) between Heroes IV’s and Heroes III’s. The former being too small and the latter being too large. I turned the grid off in Heroes IV, since it was practically useless next to the movement grid, which was excellent.
“I think one hex should be the smallest dimmension possible (size of the smaller creature, perhaps even half of it). Only this would allow enough precision.”
My personal view on the matter is that one hex should be the size of the smallest creature. Anything less than that is probably too small. I believe this is the way to go, since one can easily measure out the sizes of the creatures. E.g. small, 1 hex, medium, 2 hexes, large, 4 hexes. It is easy to figure out, and hexes that big would be useful to figure out if you can fit through that area in an isometric battlefield.
“I liked fine both versions of fighting/non-combatant heroes.”
I’ll agree there. Although, I must say, that neither of them were perfect, and maybe Heroes in Combat were more fun, however, the heroes on the sidelines also require you to think of strategic ways to utilise them most efficiently.
However, I believe there needs to be a consensus between the two. The difference between a might and a magic hero needs to be prevalent while they’re on the sidelines.
I don’t believe that heroes will ever be on par with creatures. They are very different, and it is very difficult to balance a hero, that gains levels, with creatures, that gain numbers. Consequently, heroes can be difficult to fight with at different stages of the game. In the early game, they are very weak, and are often defeated. However, in the late game, they are only slain by enemy spells or very quick creatures. In order for Heroes in Combat to work, there needs to be equilibrium with all things on the battlefield, a very hard thing to achieve.
“When would you accept to give your enemy the map view for money?”
When I’m playing a small map. If there was a small map, then the hero would get there quickly, and scouts would almost be superfluous.
In a better example, if a wall surrounded my castle, and the only entrance was through a teleporter, the army would have to find the teleporter (which could be at the other side of the map), and then enter.
Also, if the scout was recruited at a secondary or tertiary castle, far away from your main castle, then I would certainly sell my position. The opposing scout won’t know what castle it is, or where I’ve come from, so in that scenario, I would accept gold for the area I’ve scouted.
“If you have the radius then you can detect the mean trajectory, and the castle has to be somewhere on the edge of the cleared grounds.”
You probably with be able to, yes, however, I don’t know many scouts that travel in a straight line, and it may a long time until two scouts meet. There doesn’t seem to be a huge problem for me, since even on medium maps it could be hard to tell exactly what point I started at.
Oh well, if it doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t matter, just don’t use it, the option’s there though.
“Why? What effect?”
The effect would be that the change of the climate may not seem correct given the outside environment. Also, it may give away the fact that that particular castle has the grail, and therefore make it a magnet for the enemy.
(If the dome or the snow can be seen from the adventure map.)
“indeed small, and I thnk they were never meant to make a difference.”
Maybe, but according to Van, they make a huge difference. I see it the same way as you do, Vlad.
“Does anybody pursue a special class only for that bonus? Hope not.”
Exactly, and if the advanced classes were to have better bonuses, some players may in fact do such a thing, which would be a great tragedy.
And yes, the hero specialties were much better. And with Heroes V, their biography could even affect the way the Hero levels-up. (One of my suggestions from the initial post.)
Upgrade System:
“Still I would't add too much power to a 1'st level creature.”
In normal circumstances – you are right. In this upgrade system, as much strength needs to be added as possible in order to influence the player to upgrade the level 1 creature rather than the level 6 creature.
“i want to be able to use ALL my troops.”
Hmmm. Some other also feel the same way as you do. But I am not one of those others. A simple way to overcome this is to simply conquer another castle of the same, or make you map with two of the same castles so that you can recruit everything. (Make sure the opponent also has two, LOL.
Svetac
“Were there RPG elements in Heroes 1,2&3 ???”
One cannot deny the fact that hero development is a trait used in RPGs. However, the Heroes game does not focus around the development of the hero alone, and thus assumed the title of a strategy game. But hero development is an RPG element, so yes, there were.
“And those elements are not going out of Heroes 5. So to all the concerned fans of the game that the RPG element will be out I'll say don't worry.”
Only the small amount of RPG elements that were not introduced in Heroes IV are returning, e.g. everything that is correlated with Heroes I, II, III. RPG elements that will be excluded – Advanced Classes, Heroes in Combat, Heroes IV skill development. Maybe others.
“So people only think that the storytelling and the heroes in battle are the main RPG elements, and that if they go away Heroes 5 will become pure strategy game. Wrong!”
Well, they were indeed the main RPG elements introduced into Heroes IV, however the main element concerning both RPG and strategy is the hero development, and the advanced classes. These will probably be departing. However the hero development will be changed, but still have the old Heroes I, II ways about it. That is the only RPG in the game, apart from if any others are added, in my mind.
“The RPG elements in the heroes games are if mainly in the hero classes. And this is present from the beggining of the series.”
Yes indeed. And if they were to remove this, it wouldn’t be the same game. This is a core part of the game, and it is widely accepted as strategy. However, in other games it would be perceived as RPG. I’ll say it is both for the moment.
“don't forget that JVC has even designed new skill system, and that the greater difference between the classes will be supported.”
JVC has probably decided to redesign the skill system for two reasons in Heroes V:
1. Compensate for heroes being excluded from combat, and changing or removing the combat skill, which encompassed most of the Combat elements.
2. To remove the advanced skill system and possibly bring back attack, defence, spell power, and knowledge.
There are probably other reasons, and they will be known when more information comes about later this year (hopefully).
“Well isn't this CRPG element present in the heroes series since the beggining? YES it is.”
Hmmm. I wouldn’t totally agree on this point of view. You are correct in identifying the points of a classic RPG like Breath of Fire. However, I believe that there is a distinct difference. In that RPG, there are many heroes, all with different abilities, all combined in the same army. Also, no creatures are present, and the backbone is the storyline. In Heroes, there can be a maximum of around 10 heroes, but I use only about 6 on a large map, and maybe 2 on a small map. Also, they are in separate armies. While the basic idea is there, it is used in totally different contexts.
“It's the stacks of the creatures and the battles that give the RPG flavour to the heroes games.”
Yes, I’ll agree with you on that one. They are very similar, the combats. The RPG combat is solely with heroes, and the Heroes combat is with stacks of creatures with the hero casting spells on them, and affecting them morally.
However, I believe the similarities stop there. The combat in Heroes is strategically orientated, with the positioned of the creatures being ever-important, as well as the incantations cast upon them. RPG doesn’t possess the same depth of strategy that Heroes does. RPG is often based on luck, and if you are poisoned by that particular attack, etc.
Some similarities still apply though, the heroes can still use their artifacts as spells, but there are other limits. The two strategy combat and RPG combat can be likened to each other, but I wouldn’t say that the combat in Heroes is an RPG element.
“Heroes 1,2,3 were good examples of such balance. But heroes 4 overdid the RPG side and lost the strategy - the core - of the series.”
Another fair statement. With the heroes being directly involved in combat, combat did indeed liken itself to an RPG combat, since the heroes could be perished, and there needed to be superficialities present to aid them through combat. It became too focused and unbalance, as you say, and some combats were in disarray because of the quick loss of the hero.
“too much map objects that are much similar to one another but are there for the sake of the object numbers or are insignificant to the gameplay but are there for the sake of the RPG element”
Yes, they are also my views on the issue. I like there being many adventure map objects, but if they are not decisively different, then they are useless and wasting talent and time, which could be used on balancing heroes in combat.
I also agree that too many storyline related quests are hurting the game. Also quests that require you to pass a border gat in order to get somewhere are also unwelcome. However, I believe that if there is another strategic motive, like obtaining the grail and also finding a way to the enemy, it is fine. Quests like ‘Only David Bothain can pass’ are too focused and in the name of RPG.
“And by taking out these elements and by taking out the heroes from the battles, heroes 5 won't lose it's rpg elements.”
Heroes V is only losing the RPG elements that were introduced in Heroes IV, and they are indeed the true RPG elements. But other strategy-RPG elements from Heroes I-III will be retained, unless they change their game-plan entirely.
“The beauty of the Heroes games is in their simplicity, not in the complexity.”
That’s a pretty bold statement. I’d say it is more in making the right decisions rather than those two options above. Your success in the game is dependant on what choices you make, and when you decide to make them. Every time you play Heroes (competitively), you must be prepared to have a strategy, which must encompass such solutions: Build the town hall on day 1 or 3, build wyvern dwelling instead of town hall on day 1 or day 2? How about the Gorgon Lair? There are many possibilities, and it is crucial that you make the right one.
“And about the story - there WILL be story.”
Indeed there will be. I did not say there won’t be. However, what I did say was that the storyline will not play as near as big a part in a scenario as it used to. Maps in Heroes V will return to the maps similar to that of Heroes II or III, with minimal storyline. Nevertheless, the campaigns will still probably include a fair bit of storyline in them, for that is the difference between a campaign and a few scenarios.
“It has the right amount of storytelling and strategy in it. And JVC designed H2, and he is designing H5.”
Yep. Perfect. The main man who originally started the series is taking the game from the reins.
“Heroes RPG feeling, if I may say it that way, is giving the towns more flavor as in H2.”
Certainly. The towns need to be unique, with their own theme, not just built around some magic. They need to be unique, namely, buildings in different places, own skills, spells, heroes, creatures, grails, bonuses, and more special buldings. However, I fail to see the RPG element in this.
“They towns in H5 should be designed this way.”
Indeed, they should go back to their roots in Heroes II, which is based around the creatures’ specialties and strengths. Heroes II made the Heroes Series the best in my opinion, and they really need to take more from previous versions in terms of town build up. They need to be specialising in one certain aspect, as they were in Heroes II.
“towns for H5 are designed in the rock-paper-scissors manner, and towns will be built around themes and each will get it's own unique set of spells.”
Yes, it looks promising that it will actually return to the Heroes II setup. This is indeed very solid information, and it most likely means the Heroes II method.
That’s a great post there, Svetac. Thanks for your opinion, it was an excellent post. I thank you for replying here, too.
Thanks Vlad, I hope that you can continue posting. Sorry I haven’t been able to reply earlier.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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van
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 03, 2003 04:41 PM |
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"Only the small amount of RPG elements that were not introduced in Heroes IV are returning, e.g. everything that is correlated with Heroes I, II, III. RPG elements that will be excluded – Advanced Classes, Heroes in Combat, Heroes IV skill development. Maybe others."
But you dont know that, right?
Even judgeing by JVC interview.
More important. Whether someone will buy franchise from 3do or will not. Whether someone will buy NWC or will not.
Whether there will be H5 at all.
And in extreme situation , new owner of franchise may want RTS from it. Or pure RPG for that metter.
TBS market is extremly small compared to RPGs , RTSs ,FPSs and so on.
While we are at that ,have in mind that H4 is the only M&M game in top 10 ever.
My advice , dont speculate too much .
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted July 03, 2003 05:39 PM |
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Van
Quote:
And in extreme situation , new owner of franchise may want RTS from it. Or pure RPG for that metter.
TBS market is extremly small compared to RPGs , RTSs ,FPSs and so on.
I hardly believe the new owner could want to turn Heroes into RTS or RPG. Why? Because, they're buying the franchise to make profit from it. And Heroes 2 is the most profitable game in the series. That says it all. With Heroes 5 returning to the roots, I think that the buyers will be happy.
Hydra
Well, when I said "town RPG elements" I was using it as a figure of speech. Because I couldn't find better term to describe what I mean.
And on the simplicity VS complexity, I was talking mainly about the design decisions in the game. I think that H4 was made too complex, and that turned down many players from playing it. I personally know 30 or more veteran players here, that were turned down by that factor and didn't played the game. The simplicity in the playing, especially in Heroes 2, was great attraction for many players. And I think and hope JVC will focus on this again.
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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van
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 04, 2003 12:08 AM |
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Edited By: van on 3 Jul 2003
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"And Heroes 2 is the most profitable game in the series. That says it all. With Heroes 5 returning to the roots, I think that the buyers will be happy."
Check your sorces again.
Bestseler in series is H4.
Profit wise , H2 may has best invest/return ratio (dont know that ), but that means nothing. Its few hundred thousends against milions of copies (warcraft for instance , or Bolder or something simmilar).
Welcome to the real world.
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted July 04, 2003 12:45 AM |
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HyDrA:
There is always the idea of bringing new towns with the expansion. But that happened only once, in h3 with the Conflux, and it wasn't very original either, exept the psychics... and I think also that elementals are only to be summoned (my idea -> by druids/high druids & hero -> in the "town proposals" more info).
The greatest probability is that they won't develop newer towns, and will continue to transform the present ones and shift the creatrues from one to another (here they can indeed bring new ideas). So it won't matter realy if they keep the diagram (penta- /hexa- /whateva- ). So I think the only novelty would be only the opposite of Nature. It might be named Conflux, but no elementals in it. It's been a week and still haven't found an idea for it...
Perhaps 7 towns including Inferno is the actual working diagram.
About grail: if the dome is powerful enough it doesn't matter that enemies become attracted. The grail may very well be discovered to the end of the game, and at that moment any castle of yours should prove itself a strong magnet for the enemy...LOL
I don't know if anyone will ever play wit upgraded level 1 creature instead of upgraded level6. Only if not the upgraded 1 is better than upgraded 6. Or the short maps (meaning no choice however since few go for max. level in shorts).
Sorry, that's about all (tenouous period for me this time of year.. )
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Nasty
Known Hero
castor nebun si orb pe cinste
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posted July 04, 2003 01:46 AM |
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Maybe every hero should have his house...his rezidence...when a hero crosses the 6th level then he can build a house...that upgrades due to his skills...think about a necromancers home...a house made of bones...with smoke coming up his windows...and every time the heroe grows one level the house changes...the changing system is made by his skills....think about a heroe with nobility...near his house would apear a mining plot where a few workers would work...and a small chapel where he finds his diplomatic senses...and a small gold mine ....the area around his house doesnt have to be very large...only the main skills count.If a hero has combat...near his home..will apear a small wrestlling pit,a arena..and when the hero is in town he can be seen training there...of course the house is situated in the second screen in the magical one.If a hero has nature magic...his home would be a great tree...with smaller trees around where he finds his herbes...and where he summones creatures.It's difficult but it would look great...you would be very impressed with it's design!Every skill could be implemented in such buildings making the castle more vivid and interesting!
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You can trick me with food.Possesions mean nothing to a navajo.
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