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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Heroes5 - h3 or h4 solutions ? Which are better ?
Thread: Heroes5 - h3 or h4 solutions ? Which are better ? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 11, 2003 06:27 PM bonus applied.

Heroes5 - h3 or h4 solutions ? Which are better ?

Hi. I'll try to write it as clear as possible.

Someone _important_ (sorry I don't remember his name,  one of developers) said that Heroes5 is going to be more in the spirit of Heroes3 than Heroes4. Cool, because I like h3 more than h4. HOwever :

I. THere are some incredibly nice changes in Heroes4, which in my opinion should transfer to Heroes5.

II. THere are some really stupid solutions in Heroes3.

The point of this topic is to decide, which solutions do you prefer, and want them (possibly enhanced/modified) in Heroes5 ?

Feel free to add more to this topic, but READ EVERYTHING FIRST.... please.

----------------------------------------------

1.(H3) unit upgrades  OR (H4) no unit upgrades ?

Personally I really like the way creatures are in Heroes4. In h3, many of them are similar, have no abilities simply boring. Unlike h4.

In H3, unit upgrades are often insignificant (they often change just like 2 points of speed, attack/defense etc and appearance), and cause lots of trouble. YOu can't have upgraded and unupgraded units in same stack !

My suggestion: either  H4 approach (no upgrades), or... completely new one, temporary called Borsuk's idea:

You can have unupgraded and upgraded units in the same stack ! HOw does it work ? Well...
1) in stack info it displays "percent upgraded"
2) if an upgrade provides ability like ranged attack, only upgraded units from stack can shoot. FOr instance, if you have stack of 100 gremlins, containing 75 ordinary and 25 master gremlins, you can shoot as if your stack contained 25 master gremlins, or attack in melee with all 100 gremlins.
3) If upgrade adds percent-based ability, chance of activation depends on upgraded2unupgraded unit ratio. For instance, if you have stack of 10 manticores, (5 manticores 5 scorpicores), only scorpicores can paralyze. THerefore, if chance to paralyze is 30%, but only half of stack can paralyze, chance of paralyzation is halved (15 percent)
4) If upgrade provides attack or defense skill upgrade (and so forth), total increase in stat depends on upgraded2unupgraded ratio. For instance, unit unupgraded has 8 attack skill and upgraded has 12 attack skill. The stack consists of 20 unupgraded and 20 upgraded units, so its attack skill is average from 8 and 12 - I mean, it's 10.

2. H3 or H4 style castle siege ?

I like H4 style castle siege much more, because:

money you put into castle defense isn't wasted. It can't be so easily negated by Ballistics skill, and/or flying creatures. Walls provide good protection and stat boost. Manned towers are in my opinion also great solution. In H3, castle towers are overpowered in early, and grossly underpowered in later game.
Full turn to fly over the wall is very nice, too.

3. Building cost and daily income

In heroes3 buildings are really cheap and you can develop your town almost effortlessly. I don't like it. Additionaly,  this means that gold mines are nowhere as significant as in H2 or H4 - it's simply sad. In H3, you often overflow with money.

On the other hand, buildings in H4 are very expensive and gold mines provide as much as fully developed towns.

I'd prefer to see building costs higher than in H3, but not as high as H4. GOld mines shold give as much gold as developed town.

4. Magic system

In H3, magic system is very chaotic, there are only slight differences between spells available in different towns. Spells available in mage guilds are very random and spending money on them is very risky ! On 4th level, you can gain Inferno, which is next to useless, or groundbreaking Berzerker. You can hardly find any use for Remove Obstacle spell, unlike overpowered, accesible for every idiot without wisdom skill, Blind.

In H5, every magic feels different and has different purpose. (warning - Magic: THe Gathering ripoff) If you spend money on mage guild, you more-less know what are you going to receive ! Some magics have more benefitial enchantmens, some more negative enchantments, some summoning spells, direct damage etc.
This means you can actually treat magic as a part of your stategy. On the other hand, some magics are poorly designed. For instance, some of them have no way to dispel !

I think the way they are going to make it in H5 (some spells are available for all guilds, some unique and town-specific) is very good, if not perfect.

Anyway, potentially devastating spells like Blind shouldn't be available to totally untrained characters. I think magic in H5 should be harder to access.
5. Adventure map hero threat areas

This is what I really like in H4. In H3, you can simply walk past enemy army to escape. In H4, you have to fight or find another way. Let's make it H4 way.

6. New H4 combat features
Features like: separate COmbat Speed and movement stat, separate ranged and melee defense, dynamic morale (changes depending on enemy army strenght), line of sight required for ranged units....

... are pretty obviously good changes, and H5 should keep them.

7. Interface !

For me, deffinitely H3 style ! H4 one is ugly, but not only that...

- H4 interface is very NON-intuitive. How many time have you spent trying to get your hero out of Santuary ? When moving hero to castle, it is very easy to bring up castle screen INSTEAD (double click). Unit portraits are BAAAAAAAAD idea, because except for several creatures you can't tell what creature you have (I'm talking about FIRST playing sessions, where you don't remember each creature's face yet).THe way you cast Quicksand is very silly - no way to predict effect or cancel etc...

8. Big battlefields (H4) or tiny ones, with very fast creatures (H3)

I prefer bigger battlefields and slower creatures. HOw about you ?

9. Simultaneous damage (H4) or first strike - first damage (H3).

I think all creatures having first strike ability is stupid, and degenerates the game. In H3, no one is (almost) ever going to use Guard command, for instance. MOst strategy circles around being the one who strikes first. I really don't like it.

It also means that it's possible to win a battle without ANY losses. It is very common in H3. It is possible that after battle between two large forces one of them takes very little casualties - despite the fact that both of them engaged in melee. As a consequence, one battle is often enough to completely eliminate your opponent in multiplayer.
Armies are becoming more and more powerful, and direct damage spells for example - become less and less useful.
Moreover,

I like it when some creatures have first strike ability, but not all of them. More tactical choices this way.

10. REinforcements and chaining

I really like the fact that Heroes4 creatures have their own morale, luck, and movement points. Hero chaining is insultingly stupid - you can move ONE army faster because you have more heroes ? Why's that ?

11. Creature choices - Minotaur or medusa ?

In H3, each town has certain set of creatures and no choices possible. In H4, you have to choose which creatures do you want to train and which not. It's great, because you can make your army to fit your playing style. Unfortunately, many creatures will became unavailable for you :<.

I suggest doing it the way it works for Creature Portal in H4. You would be able to recruit 2 different creatures from one level. Recruting one kind prevents you from recruiting another. But wait - you use SAME building for both creatures. So you would be able to recruit 10 medusas, or 10 minotaurs, or 5 medusas and 5 minotaurs, or 3 medusas 7 minotaurs, or 6 medusas 4 minotaurs etc.
Essentially, you have small creature portal for each level ! This solution has additional benefit - you can change your creature production without any problems.

This would require more slots available for army. To prevent abuse, I suggest raising morale or even luck penalties for combining creatures from different town types.

12. Non-combat heroes - H4 style !

I really like Nobility and Scouting skill branches in H4. Your main hero may be non-mage, non-commander and you still can win ! More strategies available...
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted August 11, 2003 10:36 PM

1.(H3) unit upgrades  OR (H4) no unit upgrades ?

A way to get around all the problematic issues that arise if you try to allow mixing apgraded creatures with upgraded is handled in this thread.Design idea: Leaders

If you don't have some nice mechanism like this I'd suggest never to allow mixing of upgraded with non-upgraded creatures. You get problems when creatures die in the stack, when merging stacks and when splitting stacks.

There's nothing wrong with similar creatures having about the same abilities in different alignments.

2. H3 or H4 style castle siege ?

In H4 SP you don't need Citadel or Castle. It's an overall waste of money. There is another topic on how to improve sieges so I won't disucss this here.

3. Building cost and daily income

This is not really related to H3 and H4. It's possible to opt for No Gold Mines on the Map, and similarily you don't need to place any Utopias or other "rich" structures there either.

H3 has a lot more builds and gives a lot better builder feeling than H4. I disagree on this one.

Economy is mainly a thing which up to Map maker to get right.

4. Magic system

There will always be more or less useful spells. Of course designers always try to make spells useful, some spells just become better than others. It's the same thing in H3 and H4.

It's not only a positive thing that you know what to receive. The spell selection is very limited if you look at the number of available spells for each school on each level. The chaotic approach in H3 also meant more flexibility.

When it comes to access to powerful Magics, then perhaps H4 is a bit too punishing. I'd actually like something between H3 and H4. And the most powerful spells in H4 should not be in the game.

5. Adventure map hero threat areas

Keep it the H4 way with the choice of making creaters mobile or not.

6. New H4 combat features

The dynamic morale is a bit more complex than looking at the enemies strength. I'm not sure how it works exactly.

But I'd agree that most of these should be kept for H5.

7. Interface !

H4 interface could use some improvements, and to me the H3 interface was overall better and sometimes easier to use.

Sanctuary... Never actually. It appears that a Town is usually a lot closer than the nearest Sanctuary. I've seen so little use for this structure that I'd probably overlook it even if it was closer.

Wasn't double clicking on town the same in H3?

Quicksand has become easier to cast with better GUI if you have the latest patch.

8. Big battlefields (H4) or tiny ones, with very fast creatures (H3)

The battlefield is not bigger in H4, if you count out the area where the creatures can move then it's porbably about the same in H3 and H4. They have reduced the speeds a bit in H4 so creatures can reach across the battlefield in turn 1.

I'd want bigger squares or bring back the hexes. I also very much want back the Tactics skill of H3 to place creatures.

9. Simultaneous damage (H4) or first strike - first damage (H3).

I'm not so sure about this one, and the reasons for that lies with the fact that there should generally be a benefit for the attacker to attack.

There are a lot of reasons to why armies can decimate the other side with zero losses, and the difference between these two damage types are not the main ones. If anything this has become even much more simple in H4.

10. REinforcements and chaining

Agree on this one.

I'd want to see some resets when adding creatures to stacks removed though. I believe you should retain bonuses if you get new creatures in existing stacks through skills like Summoning and Necromancy. Right now the Stables bonuses are reset, along with any other bonuses attained through the Map.

What is not so good in H4 is the "terrain" movement adventure objects. I've never understood how they worked. If and how they stack and so on.

In H4 the Hero has the speed of the fastest creature, so there is still some work to do.

11. Creature choices - Minotaur or medusa ?

I'm not sure the "creature" portal idea is so good. Somehow the town loses flavour if the Orcs and the Bandits dwell in an identical dwelling.

But the idea has something appealing to it.

Hmmm perhaps if the choice was between Ogre Warlord or Ogre mage, or Troll (Ranged) and Troll (Grunt) it would be better.

I'd say do not increase army slots per default because the player could create a more diverse army.

Morale penalties are about right in Heroes 4. No need to change them more.

12. Non-combat heroes - H4 style !

I'd say you need Mages and Combat heroes also in your army.

The new Hero types do add to the game, but only developing a Lord or a Thief is perhaps not the best of ideas for becoming successful.
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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 12, 2003 12:03 AM
Edited By: B0rsuk on 11 Aug 2003

Repplying to Djive:

#1   To be honest, I think creature upgrades bring mostly havoc and confusion. No real benefits.

#3 I think it IS related. In heroes3, you get 2000 gold per town without capitol. Level7 creature dwelling costs like 20k, so it's around 10 days. Probably less - capitol.

In H4, 14 000 gold needs 14 days to accumulate. 2 or slighty more for level2, 4 or so for level3.

#4 It's not exactly my point that some spells are weaker than others. You'll have to admit that there are more useless spells in H3, anyway.

I mean that H3 magic system is very chaotic and you can't predict what _Kind_ of spells are you going to receive - disabling ones, harmful, benefitial ? Pure luck !

#9 Obviously attacker has important benefits in H4 - he chooses the target, and when to strike ! For instance, he can target Black Dragons with Mantis and send Phoenix for free kills. Eat up retaliation with imps, and attack with devils....

I think it's enough.

#11
Hmm I guess it's just a matter of choosing right name and appearance for each 2 creatures.

Archers and Squires - Barracks with some kind of archery range behind it

Dragonflies and Basilisks - Hatchery, some pits with cute hollow trees above them.

I don't think there would be problem with appearance, but it could be troublesome to name it :|.

#12 Developing non-combat hero in H4 gives you much higher chance to survive than developing non-combat hero in H3. THat's what I mean.

I have lots of fresh ideas for H5 and I'm going to post them in separate topic...
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Dingo
Dingo


Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
posted August 12, 2003 01:22 AM bonus applied.

My Longest Post...

#1 Upgrades are needed.  I hated how there were no upgrades in H4.  Why do you not want upgrades?  Too many creatures or something?

#2 H3 seige style is needed.  I couldn't stand the H4 seige style.  It was expensive and useless.  All the enemy had to do was attack your unit on the tower with a bone dragon and then the enemies skeletons would take that spot.  Think about this the HOMM universe had a technological advancement, the Catapult.  Then what they forgot how to make it or something?  

#3 I didn't like how in H5 you earned about 750 gold a day from your castle.  It made me feel really poor.  I think we should bring back the Capitol but instead make it 5000 a day.  Buildings and Creatures could cost a little more for balance.  Plus in H5 there should be more buildings to buy, so that will also cost a bit.

#4 The H4 magic system was chaotic.  Chaos had all the Damage spells, enough said.  In H3 everyone had about the same magic.  I like the H3 magic system.

#5 Yeah I like how in H4 you can't just runaway on the adventure map.  This is a good thing about H4, it should be in H5.  What I don't like is the Fog War.  You scout some territory and then all that hard work is wasted by that F****** fog.

#6 I agree that Heroes 4 did a good job on combat stats.

#7 H3 interface should be used in H5.  I can't stand H4s interface, its very cartoony.

#8 I think Bigger battlefields are good.  But the battlefields have to be like H1,H2,H3 the 2d view.

#9 I can't decide on this one.  The simultanious attack is good but First Strick really pisses me off.  No you have no idea how angry it makes me.

#10 Hero Chaining was stupid.  But I don't think slower creatures should slow down the army.  I realize that it makes sense logically but I hate leaving my skellies at home because they are slow.  The Armies speed sure be calculated by the heroes speed, while preventing hero chaining.

#11 No Creature choices please.  I makes me fell like I never completely built my town or I missed out on something.  Instead of having to choose, just make more levels of creatures.  Who would pick a Orge Mage over a Cyclopes?  I realize that Creature choices add more stagedy but my solution is just put more creatures in more towns.  Each town basically has its own stagedy.

#12 I think Heroes should NOT be in battle.  I don't like watching my Heroes die before my creatures.  How are they Heroes if they die first?

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted August 12, 2003 03:44 AM bonus applied.
Edited By: Gerdash on 11 Aug 2003

#1 upgrades
you could just be able to choose if you transfer the upgraded or non-upgraded creatures between stacks.
i am doubtful about it, though. you could as well put them in a different stack, what would be so wrong with it?
imho the leaders idea isn't simple enough and might create a bit too much confusion. at least it would create more confusion than putting the upgraded and non-upgraded creatures in same stack.
also, i have always liked the homm2 way of upgrades: some creatures can be upgraded and some can't. i don't like a globally applied system here.

#2 sieges
i like catapults, but i think they should only reduce the wall effect, not eliminate it.
also, i liked the way towers looked in homm3, even if you put creatures in towers, they should look like homm3 towers imho.

#6 combat features
lol, i liked homm2 combat best, because there was no wait function. and i have used the guard stance a lot, even without simultaneous retaliation. it's when wasting more time is important and the main damage comes from elsewhere, e.g. archers or spells.
what i would really like to see is that each round of combat would take a % of the hero's daily movement. would elliminate some idiotism in battles and also make the player consider if he wants to let the fleeing wandering creatures escape.

#7 interface
true about homm4 interface. and i don't really like it all golden. or when you are playing impossible, you should be able to sell your golden interface and have a cheaper one instead.. hmm.. you might be able to purchase your interface, e.g. if you have a fully developed castle, you get a new golden interface and a leadership bonus, lol.
also, i have had an idea about a theatre stage style interface, at least for battles.

#8 battlefields
with hex grid (a must) and slower creatures.

#9 retaliation
it would be interesting to see how the game would play without any reatliation.

#11 creature choices
imho you do train bandits and orcs in different dwellings. the concept of recruiting two types of creatures from the same pool is a nice concept, but i would suggest that you need to build both dwellings to do that. but how bandits and orcs can be recruited from the same pool is no easy question, imho.

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 12, 2003 12:20 PM

#1 Upgrades

No, there are too few different creatures in H3. I'm serious. I feel almost no difference between gnoll and gnoll marauder. Same for skeleton and skeleton warrior. Many more examples. Almost no difference, that is usually the case for H3.
Perhaps if only some creatures (like in H2) can be upgraded, it would be not as bad.

Siege
a) not every army has bone dragons
b) you have to stop next to gate or wall before you fly in. This means you are free target for attacks with like +50% percent damage or so.
c) in next turn, you are very predictable. Once you fly in, you can't escape.
d) if you decide to destroy gate first, then you take even more hits (with 50% bonus I think) than needed when you fly across the wall.
e) you can't scare enemies off the tower and take it in the same turn, usually. Not with same stack. Prepare for deadly attack from tower.

Even if  you somehow manage to outsmart enemy to let you capture the tower, it's not the problem with siege system itself, but with particular creature. What if you are to face golems or dragon golems on tower ? At the moment I'm not sure if terror works on death-based creatures. Anyway, Titans, Cyclops or Venom Spawns defending castle are doomsday devices.

I don't like H3 siege because there actually no walls. They break before I can even reach them. I don't feel any protection  when I'm inside castle walls. And melee troops are not nearly as useful as in H4.

Income It's 1000, not 750. It brings new level of strategy, because of purchasing everything you have to decide what is worth of purchase.

Magic. I can't understand why do you claim H4 magic system was(?) chaotic. Putting money in magic guilds in H3 is like playing poker. There's not much strategy about poker, mostly bluffing and luck.

Chaos magic in H4 is all wrong. It should work like normal magic in H3 - you could get ANY spells. That would be truly chaotic.


creature dwellings
If there are no choices, there's monotonny. You can use same tactics against same town over and over.
If you have to give up using certain creatures, that's bad, too - feeling of loss etc.
The golden middle in my opinion is when you can recruit one kind of creature, and still be able to switch to other kind later.

There wouldn't be so much problem about naming orc+bandits structure. THey are both humanoids. There can be an orc among bandits and vice versa.
Something like Rogue Camp/caves would work fine I think.


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EmperorSly
EmperorSly


Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
posted August 12, 2003 12:58 PM bonus applied.

#1 Borsuk's upgrade system -- not happy with it. It would make the representation of creature stacks very messy. Also what if upgrade adds to creature speed? Will then part of the stack move further? Or what if it has sth to do with initiative? Anyway, it doesnt solve the problem of upgrades being "compulsory", insignificant, and boring.

As alternative, i offer the version where all creatures are upgradeable, but it is possible to actually upgrade only 2 creatures per town. Its players' choice which two creatures. That would add some strategy element to the upgrading activity at least. Only minus is that if we go with H4 style creature alternatives, we would have 6 levels x 2 = 12 creatures already, having them upgradeable would make it 12 x 2 = 24 creatures per town -- possibly a bit too much for graphix designers to live with.

#2 Siege: no opinion but that Dingo's bone dragon expample is irrelevant -- can be done only by one alignment out of 6 and that too under rare circumstances, thus nothing wrong with being able to do it.

#3 Money: poverty is cool. it makes money important in your decisions. keep incomes low and prices high!

#4 Magic: the H4 system is WAY better. There you have the chance to include magic in your strategy. You know what spells to expect for yourself and from enemy, and you know what to to if you want some specific spells (e.g. want vampiric touch -- learn death magic & capture death town or many order towns). In H3 you just got whatever spells you got and tried to use them best you could -- no strategy here.

#5 Fog: whats wrong with fog, dingo? when you scout an area, you just learn the landscape features + whatever creatures were there at the moment. you dont install security cameras that would later warn you of creatures wandering there.

#9 Simultanous Damage: keep it! makes keeping creatures a bit harder, adding depth to the game. Btw, Djive, attacker doesnt have to get a benefit from it. In most of the martial arts, attacker is in fact in disadvantage.

#10 Movement: thank god they removed chaining. lets hope it stays away. H4 movement system is perfect -- with each creature having own speed, so you can even speed up an army mid-turn be stranding the slow guys in the woods.

#11 Creature Choices: the best thing introduced by H4. Keep it this way! Adds a LOT of strategic decision making. The creature portal type of choice would make it less important -- being able to change the choice downgrades its importance. Make a choice that you can live with no matter what future brings -- thats strategy! Or life. Btw, dingo, if not utilizing all choices you have seen makes you feel you are missing out on something, how do you manage to live your life? In life its just such choices -- by spending 8 hours on a heroes game, you miss out on the chance to go snowboarding or whatever...  And if you decide to study law, you cannot study medicine. Furthermore, you cannot even reverse the choice easily in future as in the case of creature portal type choice.

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted August 12, 2003 07:03 PM

<b>#11 creature choices</b>
Quote:
In life its just such choices -- by spending 8 hours on a heroes game, you miss out on the chance to go snowboarding or whatever...
nicely said, but you could also look at it in a different way: the choice is made when you recruit the creatures.
imho the "creature dwelling" should not create any creature population that wasn't there before the dwelling was built, so my preference is to look at the "creature dwelling" as a place that makes the existing creatures recruitable.
if you can only build the "dwelling" for one type of population, it looks like an artificial constraint to me. are we out of space or what's the problem?
i think i got your point, and it's a strong one, but i guess i could as well say that, according to your example, an "university" can teach either medicine or law, but not both.

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EmperorSly
EmperorSly


Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
posted August 12, 2003 07:54 PM

damn right, the creatures all live and party in the town, dwellings just train and equip them to go to war. they are like vocational schools that train car mechanics or hotel receptionists etc. if you have employed a bunch of car mechanics professors and bought lots of wrenches, welding tools and suchlike, you cannot change your mind and suddenly start training hotel receptionists with this equipment.

or another way. you've noticed creatures slowly accumulate in dwelling. why? they graduate. graduate from what? thats the key -- you cannot have them learning something and then later decide what it was they were learning. you have to decide it beforehand.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted August 12, 2003 11:47 PM

Borsuk:
#3: The total cost of the dwellings plus dwelling upgrades is a lot higher in H3 than in H4. In H4 the dwellings cost is about 25000 Gold, in H3 I'd say it's about 50000-60000 Gold. But you are probably right in H3 being a bit richer because you can buy out a larger percentage of the creatures just using the town income, than you can in H4.

Another difference between H3 and H4 is that in H3 you earn back the money you spend on a Hall upgrade in 5 days, but in H4 it takes 10 days.

#4: It should probably be some luck involved. The choice offered in H4 is just between 3-5 spells on each spell level, which is a too narrow selection to my mind. H3 had a selection of spells disabled for each town type, though the number of disabled spells were sometimes too few to be properly noticed. It's most apparent that spells are disabled on level 4 and 5.


#9: In H4, it's difficult to keep track of when a creature can retaliate. And sacrifice stacks with say 1 imp is not really a tactics I want to promote. It would be better if you divided the attack power so that an attack goes through phases like in AoW.

As an example, you could reduce the damage value by two.

Each defender could have 2 retaliations per round (some more, some could have less).

When the attacker makes an attack if it must use more than half it's movement to reach the creature then it can make only one attack, otherwise it can make two attacks.

The the attack sequence is like:
- Attacker attacks.
- Defender retaliates (if retaliations left)
- Attacker attacks (if travelled less than half movement)
- Defender retaliates (if retaliations left and attacker made a second attack.)

This would of course require some redesign and tuning in other areas as well, and you don't necessarily have to divide into 2 attacks, it could be 3.

Dingo:
#1. On upgrades. It depends on number of creatures and a few other cjoices you make. If there are 100+ base creatures that are special enough then upgrades may seem a bit superfluous to me.

#4 On damage spells. Order had Magic Fist and Ice Bolt, plus Mage, Genie and Evil Sorceress. That's a LOT of direct damage capability. Life had damage spells on undead and Death has damage spells on living creatures. And finally Nature had Water Elentals and Fairy Dragons. Overall, there was alot od DD spells around and spread out. The only one that had no DD was Might, unless you count the Thunderbird's attack as DD.

Gerdash:
#1. I profoundly disagree on this one. Allowing mixing stacks is really messy and gives rise to a lot of questions on "How does it really work?" And once people have figured out, there will either be silly exploits, or the system is so punishing that noone would ever merge the two stacks to begin with.
Do note that the Leaders idea is not mainly aimed at replacing "upgrades". It's aimed at replacing creature XP.


#6. I agree on combat rounds taking time on the overland map. It seems to me to be a good idea.

#9. Hmmm.... That's an interestng thought.
Very interesting.

#11. I'd say you could have. Orc Dwelling with alternatives: Orc-Throwing Axe, Orc-Melee specialist. That makes sense, I think.

Borsuk 2:
On sieges. There are so many ways to get around the tower benefits in H4. Order has Teleport and Forgetfulness (and many more) which devastates the defences, and on top of that direct damage spells which circumvents the Tower bonuses. Chaos also have direct direct damage, and also uses Confusion to take away turns from the more powerful shhoter. Death has Plague, and often a legion of Vampires, Devils that can Teleport and so on. Bone Dragons that can scare the opponent of the towers. Life has Song of Peace, but needs ohterwise to rely on protective spells. Hmm feels I've missed something for life. Catapults are very nice, both when attacking and defending.

The only alignment who runs into problem is Might without spell support since they often have to take the city the hard way.

You ask if you want to leave a tower empty. Well, if you don't have three shooter stacks, do you place a melee stack on the tower and allow the opponent free shots at it?

EmporerSly:
#4. The H4 system is too restrictive for my taste. And you have to invest too many levels to learn a few spells. H3 was on the other way to loose, with only the Wisdom skill. I'd probably want to have some form of "town related magic" and a pool of common spells, and then a number of magic skills to learn spells. (But not requiring 15 levels of magic skills to learn level 5 spells, that's just too much, and will lead to spells fo that level to be unbalancing since they must powerful to motivate the steep requirements for learning them.) Mage Guilds themselves are too cheap in H4. They should have costs as in H3.


#9. While it may be true that the Attacker is at a disadvantage, this fact doesn't necessarily have to be reflected in the game. The game would be boring if the two armies just decided to stare each other out, because attacking first would lose the combat.

#11. Yep. True creatures choices add replay value to the game. I'd say it's not only a matter of how you train the creatures. It could equally well be a matter of how you equip them. Give them bows and they will shoot, give them swords and they will fight in melee.
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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted August 13, 2003 06:19 AM
Edited By: Gerdash on 13 Aug 2003

#9 retaliation
Quote:
And sacrifice stacks with say 1 imp is not really a tactics I want to promote.
well, imho there is also another easy way to eliminate this tactics:
when the retaliation of the attacked creature kills the attacking stack, then it only uses up a percentage of it's retaliation, namely the percentage that corresponds to the health of the killed attacker vs the total damage of the retaliation. the remaining retaliation power lets the stack to retaliate the next attacker.
if 1 imp attacked 100 archangels then in homm it's like
1) the cruel angels are so upset with the imp who stinged one of them that they beat the imp until the poor imp is annihhilated. the imp was just following the orders of the hero, it wasn't really his fault.. imho.
2) the first angel kills the imp and the other 99 angels do some shadow-boxing and thus waste their retal.

#6 combat features
Quote:
I agree on combat rounds taking time on the overland map. It seems to me to be a good idea.
just to remind those that might not have read the thread where it was discussed (or have forgotten it), the problems with this were:
1) what happens when all the movement of the day is used up in combat?
2) and what happens if the fight continues the next day and another army joins the combat?
edit (oh, i'm not done!):
3) what happens in player vs player fights (this one was new, the point is that the player armies might have different movement left when the fight starts)?
well, i also like the idea, but i guess some creative solutions are needed here.

#11 creature choices
Quote:
I'd say you could have. Orc Dwelling with alternatives: Orc-Throwing Axe, Orc-Melee specialist. That makes sense, I think.
ok, and you could have a regenerating hydra and a poison breath hydra (or.. some hydras on some medieval paintings had wings). and you could have a minotaur with a body of a bull and a minotaur with the head of a bull. and a bandit with.. uhh.. what.. a bow? ok, divine top level creatures might not have variations.
actually i think i wouldn't be happy to depart with the creature diversity (i mean the orc vs bandit diversity).

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 13, 2003 04:45 PM

GOod idea about using only percent of retaliation.

In my opinion whole concept of regenerating creatures is made poorly in HOMM serries - only top creature can be wounded. I think damage should be more evenly distributed. I would love to see that, but unfortunately it's unlikely to happen I think.

Vampires raising from undead instead of regenerating - that's how it works in HOMM :/. Nevermind.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted August 13, 2003 07:01 PM
Edited By: Djive on 13 Aug 2003

Gerdash:
#9 retaliation

I'm very much against partial retaliations, as the concept doesn't fit into the way I perceive the game should play out. The game would have to use other mechanisms to reduce exploits.

One thing I can think of is to not allow having different sized stacks of the same creature, which you may have just for the purpose of sacrificing a single creature.  If you have several stacks of the same creatures then the computer automatically makes them equal before continuing.

However, if you are down to your last few Imp during combat then by all means they should take away a retaliation from the angels.

Do notice that the proposal I made with units having several attacks and retaliations kinds of solves the imp problem above, since the Angels would still have one retaliation remaining (killing the imps with their first strike).

You can also strengthen defence by allowing up to three retaliations for normal creatures, but only two attacks.

I'm very much against having stacks attack or retaliating only in part depending on what is required. Stacks should behave as they are one single unit of one specific type. And no exceptions.

#6 combat features
1) what happens when all the movement of the day is used up in combat?

=> Combat ends in a draw with whatever creatures are remaining on both sides. Attacker and Defender remains on the positions they had before combat.

=> Do notice that during their turn the Defenders might get reinforcements and attack the previous attackers, or they might simply run away. (The best is probably to replenish movement points at the start of the Players turn, so the once attacker might have difficulty in catching up with the troops again.)

=> I'd say XP needs to be split so Heroes on both sides would get XP for the number of killed enemy, ressurrection and necromancy might kick in and so on.

2) and what happens if the fight continues the next day and another army joins the combat?

=> It's a new combat. Has no knowledge of what happened during the previous day.

3) what happens in player vs player fights (this one was new, the point is that the player armies might have different movement left when the fight starts)?
well, i also like the idea, but i guess some creative solutions are needed here.

=> Always use the Attackers remaining movement for deciding when the fight must end in a Draw. The Defenders movements should be irrelevant. If you opt to replensish Movement at end of player's turn, then the combat should take away movement from both armies, but wouldn't reduce movement to below zero.

Come to think of it, there should probably be a minimum amount of rounds for the combat to last regardless of how much movement is left, probably something in the range 3-5 rounds.

#11 creature choices

In this case you get a choice instead of an upgrade. If an dwelling offers an upgrade then it wouldn't offer a choice. I'd say the choice gives a better variety among creatures than the upgrade.

I'm not saying you are not getting bandits.... But you shouldn't get bandits from the orc dwelling.

The only way to get creature variety is to offer more creatures.
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Marco
Marco

Tavern Dweller
posted August 13, 2003 10:50 PM


The most importent change in h5 from h4 is that the teams will be as it are in h3 maybe some additional teams but i dont like the teams in h4 i hate them.

and howewer i like h3 much much much much more than h4 the only good thing  about h4 that i think is the combats they are much better.
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lpgamble
lpgamble

Tavern Dweller
posted August 13, 2003 10:52 PM bonus applied.

III or IV

1) Upgrades - I'd rather have one version and more monsters.  If I was to program a upgrade route I'd want a modular monster.  You say you want your squires to fly?  Buy this building and select level1.  You'd have to cap the max number of special abilities on each troop type. Since the screen has 4 slots in IV why not 4.

2)Castle seiges - I think IV is hands down better.  I think I'd like to see stiffer shooting penalties for seiging armies. Instead of the door bashing, I'd like a you take the wall slot if you defeat the monster in front of you.  If something hits a seiger on the wall harder than the seiger hits them your forced back out of the castle and the winner gets the wall slot back.  Unopposed walls stop movement on the wall space.  Flyers have the same rules.

3)Cost and Incomes.  I like IV's economy better.

4)Magic - Id like a mix of III and IV.  Perhaps some standard spells added to the IV mix.  I definately like the schools of magic and variety of feel.

5) Threat IV hands down

6) Combat - IV with perhaps a slightly bigger map, bring back the hexes.  Thought- Perhaps a pick your target each turn and then a simultaneous moving system.  Your choices for each troop type would have to be 1) specific target 2) advance and attack first available 3) digin 4) advance with slowest troop

7) Interface - III while there are a couple of nice bttons in IV, III is much more intuative and clean

8) Big battle fields IV feels bigger with the slower speeds.  Keep the speeds and add some hexes

9) First Strike - I'm assuming this is the attacker gets first swing and not the special ability.  I'd like to see each stack swing simultaneously if they attack at the same speed.  I'd still like to see the no retailitory and first strikes used very sparingly.

10) Chaining was stupid and fixed

11) Creature Choices - I like the number of choices in III better, but I have to say IV's choose your path is nice.  I think IV with the ability to raze a structure would suffice.

12) Hero Fighting - IV all for the superhero fighting, but in reality the hero has less impact on the battle in IV than III.  This is a very good thing in my opinion.

Other things I've bounced around

Seige damage - How about after a seige (successful or otherwise) there is a chance buildings are destroyed based on how long the battle lasted.  so 15 turns 15% chance each building is destroyed.

Army raising - Armies typically are not raised 3 units at a time.  How about your town income is based on troops working and when they are gone the income suffers.  Units garrisoning a town make up the income for the town if you take all the creatures from the town there is no income for that town or a slight fixed income from unbattle worthy workers.  Could be based on number of creatures hence a higher value on lower level creatures staying in town and alive.  This would also negate any upkeep cost type routines.

Level 6 creatures - Usually are fickle and definately don't work the fields.  These creatures do not add to town income.  Each unit bought is a chance one of these creature will serve in an army.  If your need is great you summon these creatures to serve in one battle.  A devil would be a typical level6.  The hero has bound some devils maybe correctly and calls them to repel an attack on a key town.  Each creature has a set chance to appear.  Of course the cost would be based on the strength of the unit and the chance it would appear.  You would enter a number of units to summon and some percentage would show up and you would use your pact with the creatures.

Friendly Fire - shots at enemies that are next to friends have a chance to hit friendlies.  You could have a 7 hex pattern and have a percentage hit each hex based on skill and distance.

Market levels - as resources are sold prices go down as they are bought prices go up.


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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted August 14, 2003 12:37 AM

djive:

now you surprised me:
Quote:
#9 retaliation
I'm very much against partial retaliations, as the concept doesn't fit into the way I perceive the game should play out.
...
Stacks should behave as they are one single unit of one specific type. And no exceptions.
yeah, i have also thought about the dual nature of the stack, my views are:
1) if one angel can kill 10 imps in one retal, then it probably must hit more than once. the one hit is just the representation of the fight between the angel and the imps.
2) and there's always the interpretation that the creature is a representation of a group of creatures.

imho the strong point of having fractional reatliation when the attacking stack is killed, is that the interface remains intuitive:
1) if the attacking stack survives the retaliation, then the retaliation is used up completely.
2) if the attacking stack is killed, then a fraction of the retaliating ability remains.
this kind of interface it looks correct to me, because the effects are seen instantly, and (from my point of view) the behaviour also feels natural.

i didn't really expect that anyone would have anything against the fractional retaliation system. well, now i guess i have explained all my views on it, but i expect we will probably remain on different positions about it.

to criticize the multiple attacks and retaliations solution, i say that it may make the one imp tactics more uncomfortable (or less beneficial) at the cost of more attacking animations, but it doesn't eliminate the problem completely. the number of attacks based on the distance moved on the battlefield may have some effect on playability on it's own, but i am not sure if the effect is desireable or not.

to criticize the stack size solution, i must say it looks very artificial to me. i think that even the multiple attacks solution would be better.

i have got the impression that the retaliation system was designed to enable the "smart" retaliation absorb with a small stack in the first place, but maybe the designers didn't expect it to be used in such a way that it becomes annoyingly stupid.

#6 combat features
it seems it could work the way you described it.

in player vs player fights that end in a draw there would be a funny sitauation when the attacker's turn is before the defender's turn. the day is over, and if the defender attacks the attacker again in his turn, the day kind of starts over again (because the defender has movement points replenished in the beginning of his turn).

lpgamble:

#2 sieges
i also support the idea that you would have to fight for the wall slots. there could be a special row of slots on the edge of the wall that you could climb onto and that would have lots of penalties, and when a stack on the edge kills a stack on the wall, it should take the place of the killed stack on the wall.

#6 combat features
simultaneous moving the way you diescribed would be an interesting topic to discuss, maybe even challenging, but imho it would be well worth it.

#8 big battlefields
the problem with adding hexes to homm3 battlefield is that the nice syetem where creatures try to appear on stack 7 in the beginning of the battle and not to appear on stack 13 might be endangered. but maybe there will be no problem.
Quote:
Units garrisoning a town make up the income for the town if you take all the creatures from the town there is no income for that town or a slight fixed income from unbattle worthy workers.
...
work the fields.
oh, now i am confused. i have always thought that the troops in the castle would rather help to gather taxes, or from the point of view of the peasants, systematically rob the countryside. if there are no troops in the castle, the income might suffer because there isn't enough force to gather taxes. the same reason why the income should increase when you upgrade the castle fortifications: the peasants are more afraid to rebel and the nobles become more bold in collecting taxes.
Quote:
as resources are sold prices go down as they are bought prices go up.
maybe the prices could even depend on the availability of the resources on the map, or maybe neutral mines only. and maybe when the price of a resource goes up, the creature stack that guards the mine grows more at the turn of the week. or the creature stacks might just depend on the price of the resource. ok, it could be a great idea for the atmosphere, but there is compromise with simplicity, so i guess we should consider this with caution.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted August 14, 2003 01:08 AM

Gerdash:

It's mainly a gui question, and the need to know if a creature can retaliate more. How do I know how much retaliation is used up?

Do I have to inspect the unit to find out how how much retliation remains?

Let's take another example.

50 Imps attacks 10 Angels and let's say they are wiped out. How much retaliation force remains on the angels?

Will the remaining retaliation force depend on how lucky the angels were or how lucky/unlucky the imp were? Perhaps they scored maximum damage and 5 of them has retaliation left. Perhaps they scored a poor hit and only one has retaliation left? How did the Angels know they would score maximum damage before they hit the Imps? How did the Angels know that Imps wouldn't get Fortune effect applied?

Let's say I kill 3 Angels who have used part retaliation with a spell. Now, how many angels have their retaliation left in the two above cases. Do I need to inspect the creatures AGAIN?

Now let's say the Angels attack and another three Angels are wiped out. How much retaliation remains?

The simple truth is I don't want to have to check and recheck retaliation all the time. This will add a lot of time to combat.

And with this you open a can of worms to demands for similar features. If retaliation is partial then perhaps special effects like Paralysis or Freezing, and spells like Weakness, Song of Peace and so on also are partial. The net effect is that you the player is essesntially stripped of being able to judge how dangerous it is to attack a stack and I don't like this.

The feature also makes it too beneficial to have one HUGE stack, to the detriment of other tactics.

Age of Wonders have a similar system with 3 melee attacks and four retaliations per turn (for most creatures). The main difference in Age of Wonders is that there the creatures may miss completely and do no damage (which would not be appropriate in heroes since heroes can have huge stacks and a huge stack missing the targe is a bad idea.)

I don't think more animations are required, though if your comment were that the exchange of blows would take longer time then I agree.

For some abilities multiple attacks and retaliations would be quite good. Jousting bonus for cavalry is for first attack only. A blocking ability is for first retaliation only.


#6 combat features

I agree that you would get strange situations but the effects are a consquence of the game being a TBS game. You already have similar effects within a players turn.

For instance an army moves across the Map and ends up fighting an enemy army. The army is annihilated. Then another army just a short distance from this battle wipes out the enemy.

The 'paradox' is that the second fight would realistically occurr before the first one.

Or you can have the first army winning, and then the second army passing through the area even though at that time of the Turn, realism tells me that the enemy army was still there securing the area.

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Dingo
Dingo


Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
posted August 14, 2003 01:35 AM

Quote:
by spending 8 hours on a heroes game, you miss out on the chance to go snowboarding or whatever...


Dude you are sadly mistaken on that one.  Like 99% of my life is snowboarding.  I don't even see my computer during the winter time.

lmao on my longest post, everyone hates all my ideas lmao
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lpgamble
lpgamble

Tavern Dweller
posted August 14, 2003 05:09 PM

Gerdash:

I really like the idea of resources prices based on the number of mines and number of resources in stockpiles.

Programatically I'd have to say each resource would have a low fixed price component and a variable amount something on the scale of 1 - (stockpile totals/#of mines * 500) * high value.  You have to check and make sure it couldn't deduct from the low price with big stockpiles.

Battlefield size:  I can live with the battlefield size I just wish less troops could go all the way across in one bound, but I think thats a product of strong range attacks mostly.

>#2 sieges
>i also support the idea that you would have to fight for >the wall slots.

Yes I think that would make fortifications challenging and leave the way open for moats, pungy sticks, etc. to even cause some minor damage to assailants.  

And for the inevitable, "but fliers can go right over".  If you look at a real castle adding a 45 degree shield along the wall is a simple process and trying to get to a person on a wall is not.  Just ask an air force how hard it is to unroot ground troops.  The other thing is there isn't room in castles for fliers to swoop into courtyards, I get a picture of birds bouncing off glass walls.

Income:
>oh, now i am confused. i have always thought that the troops in the castle would rather help to gather taxes, or from the point of view of the peasants, systematically rob the countryside >

Well I haven't looked at it that way but yes that works as well.  
My thought was if you raise an army you are going to take all those "peasants" and form an army.  The income of the town is mostly made up of a ton of level 1(2's) workers doing grunt work.  If you pull all of those units into an army you've hamstrung your workforce.  It basically gives you a reason to keep and buy level 1 n 2's.  The counter strategy would be to seige the town and kill as many level 1 and 2's as you can to hamstring the others income.

Age of Wonders II :
I have that game and play it occasionally, but I think the city and economics are to overpowering.  You have to spend most of your time planning purchases and thats not my idea of fun.  The combat system is pretty good.  Its a shame its so economy heavy.
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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted August 14, 2003 07:37 PM

djive:

#9 retaliation

well, it would be a % of retaliation that would be used up in the first place. if you kill some creatures with a spell, the % remains the same.

it's that i view the hit animation of the attack and reatliation as a fight between the two stacks that consists of many hits by each creature in the stack.

and the situation when a creature has used up retaliation is the sitauation when the creature is truely overwhelmed with attackers (i mean, not necessarily defeated, but busy).

or.. to get sarcastic, each angel makes e.g. a 10% swing with his sword and kills the mall stack of imps, and the remaining part of the swing can be used for the next retaliation. that way it could also be viewed as a single hit.

maybe it would even be better the %-of-swing way, because when we want to go nitpicking, then in the case when there are many hits by each monster, then some of the imps would already be dead and would not get a chance to hit multiple times.

yeah.. what i meant previously was the repeated attack animation thing. actually i guess it would simulate the situation when some of the imps are dead before the last hits are made most realistically. we could of course utilize a formula that takes the health points of monsters into account and still have it as a single attack animation, especially with simultaneous retaliation.

well, you could estimate the used retaliation power by the health points of the suicide stack that you attacked with.

if that is not enough, some ugly % number appearing when the mouse cursor moves over the monster might be needed (unless there's a better idea how to show it without using numbers). on one hand, it wouldn't look extremely nice, but it would have a small benefit as it would help to keep track of the retaliation in some cases.

a huge stack may have other penalties, e.g. blind, etc. and actually imho the retaliation is it's fair share of retaliation, i wouldn't find so much wrong with it.
or we could come up with some new penalties that would limit the retaliation power, based on the fact that all the creatures in a large stack might not be able to reach the front lines to hit the enemy (i guess it might somewhat penalize large stacks of low level monsters against high level monsters, but this is something that could be properly balanced imho).

well, but what about no retaliation at all? would it feel too unnatural? would it be a morale effect? like when the turn of the creature came, if the creature had low morale, it might not be able resist the temptation to attack the stack that attacked it last, instead of letting the hero tell it what it should attack?

#combat features
Quote:
Or you can have the first army winning, and then the second army passing through the area even though at that time of the Turn, realism tells me that the enemy army was still there securing the area.

lol, this topic sounds way too familiar:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=110&pagenumber=4

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