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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 23, 2008 12:26 AM |
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Alci, I'm speechless. It's definitelly the most complex, consistent and resonable magic system I've ever seen. Not only in Heroes series, to be precise.
When I visited this thread for the first time, it looked both chaotic and overestimated. Now it brings new quality to clearity 
I'll have to read the entire thread, together we will create the perfect system which will always be remembered as ingenious idea which has never come true 
Thank you!!
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I like the way you combine both elements, direction of progress and attitude of every school and fraction. I just would fix the dark alignment. It has nothing to do with creation, I would replace it with 'change' or 'revolution'. Now the changes are radical and enforced, in game it would refer to various mechanics tricks. The creation is not attribute of evil, this fraction would rather modify something that is already given.
Evil + Nature, as for me, would be degeneration. The life and death cycle, ilness, mutations maybe? Here's the perfect area for necromancers.
I think you got something wrong here. Creation is not related to Dark/Evil, Creation is a combo of Light + Arcane. The combination Dark + Nature = Destruction (could also be degeneration like you say) is currently related with Dungeon and Bastion.
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First of all, how would the heroes's skill and class refer to portefolios? I assume that hero can master some alignement and learn all friendly portoflios (let's call them magic shools for short) in this way:
Good = Life, Creation, Community, Freedom
Ok I'm not going to go into all details with the magic yet (because there are some things that still need finish), but here's a general outline.
Like you say, each Magic School has 4 related Portefolios, like Divine = Life, Creation, Community, Freedom. Each School also has 4 magic Classes (Subschools), i.e. Divine = Healing, Blessing, Abjuration, Transformation. It might seem obvious to have these relate on a 1:1 basis (i.e. Life Portefolio = Healing Class), but this doesn't work because each Portefolio is actually related to two Schools: Life = Divine + Nature.
As it is, each Magic Class combines two of the four Portefolios relating to the school. Again, to give an example:
Divine = Life, Creation, Community, Freedom.
> Abjuration = Freedom + Creation.
> Transformation = Freedom + Life.
> Healing = Community + Life.
> Blessing = Community + Creation.
This may seem overly complicated when written in text, but when the diagrams are up will probably be less confusing.
The importance of this is not a lot, but it does carry some significance. Every faction can master all classes within the school through learning the appropriate perk [there will be 4 perks: Master of Abjuration, Master of Transformation, Master of Healing and Master of Blessing to unlock "Master" effekt of appropriate spells]. However, they will have affinity for those classes whoes Portefolios they share.
As an example, take Haven with Portefolios Life, Community, Water. Haven will have great affinity for Healing, because it shares both it's Portefolios (Community + Life). Haven shares one Portefolio with Transformation and Blessing, but shares no Portefolios with Abjuration, which will be the least favored class. How this "favorism" comes up is as yet not quite decided, but might imply likelyhood for spells to come up in mage guilds and specialized (faction-only) advanced perks in this perk-branch (like Master of Healing -> Guardian Angel available only for Haven).
As a final note, one can notice that there are 4 factions aligned with Divine Magic: Haven, Academy, Sylvan and Fortress. The Portefolio system guarantees that they favor each their own seperate class within Light Magic: Haven = Healing, Academy = Blessing, Sylvan = Transformation, Fortress = Abjuration.
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 23, 2008 04:07 PM |
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So let's see if I've got this clear:
With certain spells in each subschool. The faction circle only strictly relates to the school, alignment and port(e)folios (the correct spelling has no e, but it's up to you of course), although I assume that e.g. Haven will have a strong affinity with Healing and the other two as yet unnamed subschools nearby.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 24, 2008 06:12 PM |
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Yes, you're figure is exactly true! Haha maybe I should try to make something like that - damn, that's gonna be a lot of coloured blobs. 
I think actually the figure demonstrates the point very well, the closer "something" is to the faction position - that being the Alignment, Portefolio or Class - the more related the are to each other.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted March 24, 2008 06:18 PM |
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Nice... but now I don't know what sense does it make and why complicate it so much? 24 schools? I don't see that.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted March 24, 2008 06:25 PM |
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I think it is only 6 schools, with spells falling under the different catagories within said schools. This allows spell crossover and thus a hero who is good at Destructive would also be good at Nature magic if it falls under the "Earth" catagory.
I think.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 24, 2008 06:53 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 18:54, 24 Mar 2008.
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@Alcibiates:
I have mixed feelings about this. From a respect, it's certainly a complex, deep, well developed an fascinating Magic system - very possibly the best I've seen in the recent time.
However, the risk is making things too complex and weighten the learning curve too much. Complexity brings depth, but it's no good if no one will ever experience that depth because it's too hard to master.
My suggestion is trying to imagine how that would play out. Generally speaking the ideal goal a game where complexity and depth are there to explore, but the more shallow player will have a chance even without mastering the system in detail. Most good games have in fact this trait as a trademark (see Starcraft).
I hope my attempts at constructive criticism are usueful to you. I am very supportive of this project.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 24, 2008 06:56 PM |
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Quote:
Nice... but now I don't know what sense does it make and why complicate it so much? 24 schools? I don't see that.
I guess it depends on how you see things. I know it may seem like overcomplicating things, I on the other hand more see it as a systemization which, ones you learn the systems, makes things simpler.
As to "why", there is not a why as such - this is not necesary. This is just a way of justifying some things. In Heroes 5, Haven prefers Dark and Light Magic. That just is - no explanation provided. What I present here is very much equivalent, except there is some sort of explanation - of course, it still grounds in a number of decisions I made, yet now there is some sort of system that predicts why Haven are aligned with the schools they are. It only makes sense as long as the alignemtns are in agreement with our overall picture of the faction, but that's how I tried to make it match (Haven being Good and Lawfull and Conservative is pretty much the standard picture of how we see human factions).
Also, what I do with my magic system is pretty much extending things that are in Heroes 5. We have now already classes - look at the magic perks: Master of Abjuration, Master of Wrath, Master of Blessing. They are there (Ajburations, Blessings), but it's not systemized - when we look in Light Magic, pretty much everything is just labeled Blessing, even those spells that are not affected by Master of Blessing! And why are there 3 elemental masteries in Destructive, but not the 4th - after all, there are spells belonging to all 4 elements!
That is why I like to develop these systems - to get the underlying structures to make sense. And then, sometimes, once you've developed a pattern, it leads you in a new direction and opens new doors that you didn't even know existed when you started. 
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Astral9
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 24, 2008 08:03 PM |
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Edited by Astral9 at 20:03, 24 Mar 2008.
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Just a question, do you choose one of two ceratures on each tier, like in Heroes IV?
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted March 24, 2008 08:28 PM |
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Astral, did you read it?
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Also, what I do with my magic system is pretty much extending things that are in Heroes 5. We have now already classes - look at the magic perks: Master of Abjuration, Master of Wrath, Master of Blessing. They are there (Ajburations, Blessings), but it's not systemized - when we look in Light Magic, pretty much everything is just labeled Blessing, even those spells that are not affected by Master of Blessing! And why are there 3 elemental masteries in Destructive, but not the 4th - after all, there are spells belonging to all 4 elements!
That makes a lot of sense.
But how do subschool refer to all the spells? I believe you will find it hard to match all of them to a number of spells and put enought spells for each skill.
I understand it's just about the set of additional perks, but I still haven't hears how it's going to work with simple spell learning and casting. Although the project may be impressive, I look forward to see some actual mechanics.
Bah, I can give you a number of proposals
I think that label 'blessing' would be more appriopriate to name all the spells which give bonuses to allied units, from haste to arcane armour. I'll post some possible uses of it in my thread soon to clarify the additional perk mechanism.
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Astral9
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 24, 2008 09:06 PM |
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Edited by Astral9 at 21:33, 24 Mar 2008.
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Hrrmmmm...no , I just thought there would be a hell of a lot creatures if you didn't chooes one out of two (maybe that's a good thing). BTW I'm not very intresting in this(I'm a bit lazy too, and I find this pretty intresting, just lazy too read it all) and I didn't really have the... the... the ..... , to read it.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 25, 2008 09:59 AM |
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But how do subschool refer to all the spells? I believe you will find it hard to match all of them to a number of spells and put enought spells for each skill.
I understand it's just about the set of additional perks, but I still haven't hears how it's going to work with simple spell learning and casting. Although the project may be impressive, I look forward to see some actual mechanics.
To get an impresssion on how the Spells will look for each school, look here (post 17 from top). This was posted some time ago, but the overall frame is unchanged, even if some spell details are modified since then.
As for how learning and casting will work, here's a brief walkthrough: Having the appropriate Magic skill will allow you to LEARN all skills regardless of Class etc. and will also determine your overall mastery - e.g. Advanced Divine Magic will allow you to cast all Divine Spells up to level 4 at Advanced Mastery. Having the appropriate "Master Of" perk will add the Mastery effect (which can be AOE, some additional effect or just a plain SP bonus). All this is very similar to the current system - with the exception that all spells will now have a Mastery bonus.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted March 25, 2008 12:00 PM |
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I checked this post and it looks good. However, let me present my former interpretation of this:
Spells belong to 12 portfolios. Each of them is affected by two schools which can be mastered. For example Slow (earth magic) is related to Chaos Magic (which improves the initiative drecrease) and Conservative Magic (which reduces the movement rate). Other spells may work in other way, for example hypnosis changes it's duration and, separately, teh initiative of target stack.
Some spells, just like Implosion, don't have this split effect, so every of the schools just increases the damage dealt.
Heroes may learn some of the 6 magic Schools, each of them makes all related portoflios avaliable. This way even single skill gives you access to 4 out of 12 spell types. That is because mastering it to max level requires 15 feats in total, like in H4.
We have acess to a number of these spells this way, but Divine Magic cleric would hardly be able to cast any fireballs or such.
Additional 'masters' belong to the portfolio group and require both corresponding schools, from the other side. This way you need to learn both divine magic and conservative magic to gain acess to master of healing, as well asevil magic and lawful magic to get master of mind.
Each fraction has only three appriopriate portfolios in it's magic guild. So you can be certain you will always get the similar set of your favourite ones you'll be able to cast, but it will be only a quater of all existing magic. For the extraordinary wizards travel is the only option
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 25, 2008 12:30 PM |
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Interestingly, what you suggest is very similar to Moonlith's suggestions here - his idea was that each spell belonged to 2 of 8 schools, and that mastery of 1 of these would allow casting with some mastery, whereas mastery of both would give advanced effects. As I understand your suggestions, it's a bit of the same.
I think such an approach is also both very valid and good - my main objection will be that you suddenly need not only one, but two skills to reach maximum potential of the spell. That can work, but deffinitely makes Magic less potent (not necessarily a bad thing!). On the other hand, we risk that the maximum effect (two skills + perks) becomes very potent (read: overpowered) to justify these big requirements. However, that doesn't have to be, it's just a risk we should be aware of.
But either way, one can always prefer one or the other - I guess that's a matter of taste.
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Lepastur
Known Hero
The Red Taskmaster
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posted March 25, 2008 04:44 PM |
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Maybe this could be a little out of the topic at this stage, but that map of the page 1, is a real map or made by yourself?
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 26, 2008 12:27 AM |
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The first map on page 1 is I believe from the HoMM5 Beta, and is outdated.
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted March 26, 2008 02:19 PM |
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And why are there 3 elemental masteries in Destructive, but not the 4th - after all, there are spells belonging to all 4 elements!
Yeah, agree. Could have spells like meteor shower, earthquake and so on improved somehow, but nah. That got scrapped, also I wondered why they didnt increase abilities to 4 perks to begin with..lack of creativity, time limit? 
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 26, 2008 03:03 PM |
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You could still complicate things further...
Don't get me wrong, I love complicated and deep systems. Especially when it comes to magic.
I was thinking along the lines of combining two different spells (from different portofolios) and casting a new one, which isn't necessarily 'the same' as the two added together. Kinda like Septerra Core (played that game long ago), you could take a certain card and mix it with something else. For instance, there were single-target spells and a special spell (that only worked when combined with others) "All" joker card. That means when this card was combined with any other card (spell) it would work as a mass-spell targeting all enemies.
Of course in your system I would take two spells from two different schools or portofolios and combine them to elaborate a new one (not entirely new however, it has some logic to the combination). For example, let's say the "Summon" Phoenix spell were to be combined with a spell like Implosion -- the result could be a Void Phoenix or something similar.
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 26, 2008 04:16 PM |
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Orfinn, well I guess they had to stop somewhere. But, probably lack of ideas if anything (which I wouldn't blame them for, even though like both of you I'm annoyed that there's no Earth booster).
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted March 27, 2008 11:10 AM |
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I have to give it to you Alci. Even though I did think a lot you were unnecessarily overcomplicating things, the end result may quite well be worth it This whole allignment / magic school system fits perfectly. Congrats 
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted March 27, 2008 05:29 PM |
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Orfinn, well I guess they had to stop somewhere. But, probably lack of ideas if anything (which I wouldn't blame them for, even though like both of you I'm annoyed that there's no Earth booster).
yeah... also when it comes to the lightning perk, it is overshadowed by fire and ice. I vaguely remember sap magic was one of the very few advanced perks for that element. 
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This thread is pages long: 
