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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Are the Towns Balanced at All?
Thread: Are the Towns Balanced at All? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Hoplosternum
Hoplosternum

Tavern Dweller
posted April 02, 2002 11:25 AM bonus applied.

Are the Towns Balanced at All?

Although I have only played the game a few times IMHO the life town seems to be much more powerful than the others - at least in Single Player does anyone else agree?

1) It has so many missle troops. Levels one to three all have a missle troop and these, even with missle troops counter attacking lead to less casualties.

2) The crucial lower level troops are very strong which is vital for clearing the lower level guards on mines, booster locations and loose resources. They also stack up well against the opposition. Crossbowmen are a far better Lvl 1 missle troop than say Orcs or Halflings. Even the Squires are good for their level with their stun attack. As they just need to guard the shooters their low speed is not too much of a problem.

3) The basic heroes are good. The magic hero has life magic with it's useful healing and bless spells. It also has resurection which brings back some casualties (which are low anyway due to having lots of missle troops). The might hero starts with the tactics skill - great for speeding up your whole force, boosting luck and morale (double shots for your shooters).

4) Angels are not a bad final unit so it is not weak even here.

I have played a game (on Advanced) controling an Order power, a Nature and a Life power. The speed of development for the life town was much greater than the other two. They take less casualties (and resurect a proportion of those anyway) and can clear more areas. So they get more resorces and experience making them even stronger. Life had Angels before Order had built Nagas!

I do like the game, although it does have a few problems (no grid/movement shadow on battlefield etc.) but the towns do not seem to have been balanced very well at all. Chaos and Order seem to be especially weak. And Death with it's total lack of missle troops until the excellent Venom Spits doesn't seem too good either but I suspect their is a nack to using it's Necromancy that I haven't got yet


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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted April 02, 2002 11:51 AM

Quote:
Although I have only played the game a few times IMHO the life town seems to be much more powerful than the others - at least in Single Player does anyone else agree?

Life had Angels before Order had built Nagas!

And Death with it's total lack of missle troops until the excellent Venom Spits doesn't seem too good either but I suspect their is a nack to using it's Necromancy that I haven't got yet




Of course life is stronger if you build nagas instead of genies and venom spawns instead of vampires. Life only has 1 shooter if you build crusaders and pikemen instead of monks and ballistas, but that would be foolish too.

So pls, donīt compare a good build strategy with 2 foolish ones, itīs alittle lame =P

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Hoplosternum
Hoplosternum

Tavern Dweller
posted April 02, 2002 12:25 PM

OK Bjorn I won't try and pretend that I am any good at the game However it does not really matter how good Genies are compared to Nagas if it takes you so long to get to them because the lower level units are poor. I doubt either can compete with lifes level fours which is what was happening in my game due to the speed of development.

I gave up after a while in my Death game as it got so frustrating having my armies wiped out after a couple of battles I really liked the Venom Spits and as I think you can get Vampires (and Ghosts) via Necromancy it appeared to be a good strategy to get a missle troop at this level in my builds. And Venom spits really are good.

I am not saying that all the other towns have nothing but useless creatures but I think life can develope so much quicker due to having great level ones and lots of mislle troops.
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jimmy0135
jimmy0135

Tavern Dweller
posted April 02, 2002 04:44 PM

So far I have only played the Death town, I think it is pretty reasonable, but the key IMHO is that you get a heroe with necromancy to supplement the growth of Vamps and ghosts.  I have actually been very dissapointed with vampires so far, but maybe it was the situation I was using them in....
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Icon
Icon


Adventuring Hero
Tower Loving Criminal
posted April 02, 2002 05:28 PM
Edited By: Icon on 2 Apr 2002

Bjorn190:

My friend has the game, and I can say that Ive done prox. 20h of hotseat gameplay.

I play Order and for now I will always buy genies instaed of nagas.

My team mate plays Life and he builds Pikmen/Monks not Ballista/Crusaders.

Believe me H4 genies are A LOT different than H3 ones.

On L/XL maps if you bulid balista you gonna loose, its only good for a start then its useless.

As I said Ive played only 20h so far, I might be wrong
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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted April 02, 2002 05:48 PM

necro

I think necro is way better than any other town. Vamps are just too good. You can get a couple of them on day 2! From this point on you won't lose almost any troops while your army will grow from necromancy. While Preserve will strugle to get their level 2 unit you will be clearing the map with growing army. I tried all towns and nothing can compare to this fast development.

Both heroes are good - might for tactics, magic for spells + necromancy. Once you reach GM in necromancy (lelev 10-12) you get 2-3 vamps per battle. This is rediculous. Unless things are fixed in a patch I expect the first MP rule to be (again) "no necro".

The only thing that may work against necro is playing on high dificulty where getting vamps soon is more difficult. With a lack of low level shooters necro is at disadvantage there. But even then getting the vamps should come earlier than getting level 3 of any other town.

Another bad thing is that venom spawns is as good as the vamps and in a longer game it pays off to build them instead and get vamps from necromancy. When they poison the enemy he is forced to come to you or die from poison.

I hope I am wrong and things are more balanced, but for now I don't see this.

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Re-Animator
Re-Animator


Adventuring Hero
posted April 02, 2002 08:32 PM

Genies rock

I've always been a big fan of the Necropolis, but right now the Academy has become my favorite.  Genies are just phenomenal.  Once you get sufficient numbers of them (and it's not hard) they are devastating with Create Illusion, Icebolt, and Song of Peace.  Mages are another great unit with their Magic Fist, Raise Skeletons, and especially Poison.  

Also, since you can get both Death and Life magic skills at the university (in town) you can quickly build up a Vampire generating Charmer so you get the best of both worlds.

Damn there's so much I want to say, but I can't stay away from this game too long.  Ok a few more observations.

If you Hypnotize an enemy stack, no matter how big it is, you can Sacrifice it to resurrect one of your own troops.

Also, if you run in to the tile where a Stealth hero is located it automatically attacks you - that's a negative against the skill (but I'm glad it's there).

Divine Intervention resurrects heroes.

Faerie Dragons are amazing.

Sanctuary affects all of your stacks not just one.


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Slava14
Slava14


Promising
Famous Hero
I am 16 now....
posted April 02, 2002 08:45 PM

looooool, just looooooool

Don't you see what's going on here? This actually shows that the towns ARE balanced, because each one has it's advantage, three were already mentioned (though some will say they are't advantages at all )
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sos
sos


Known Hero
posted April 02, 2002 09:01 PM

I really hope they are balanced. All town are strong at the end, but from my limited experience I find necro to be the only town that is strong in the begining also. Genies are good, but they require a treasury, which costs 6k gold. This is a lot when your income is 500 per day initially. Unless you play on normal (and I won't ever play on normal and have the AI be even more stupid than it normally is) or impossible necro seems to have the best start with vamps easy to get.

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jondifool
jondifool


Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
posted April 02, 2002 11:47 PM

Walkers are weaker than ever!!

Walkers simply don't make it!

Most terrain does penalise walkers. There is plenty of obstackles. There is a lot of spells (and some potions) to use to disrupt the walkers way to a target too!

Lost turns, quicksand(dreadfull for a walker), slow, blind.

Added to this is that only first lines can be target from shooters! Ranged Counter retaliations often hits walkers to!
The decrease of damage in long range, makes a closer target much more likely to be chosen for a hit!

A lot of creatures have nice specials now , but for a walker it's a choice to use the ability and stay out of action or skip it and (maybe) get to the frontline!

This is just an observation , but I think its influence the choises for armys a lot. An army becomes very vulnable if it has to many walkers!

Take stronghold as an exsample.
The most easy building path (money wice) gives nomads, ogres, and behemoths ! Tons of Hp , cheap and strong creatures. But Only walkers!!
One carefully placed Quicksand and a little shooting power and game over stronghold!
Lots of battlemaps simply haves so many opstacles that they form bottlenecks that makes the walker army loose to a lot of other effects to!

 

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Icon
Icon


Adventuring Hero
Tower Loving Criminal
posted April 03, 2002 02:11 AM

Re-Animator:

I do agree with you about the genies, they are awsome!

However, mages are not that good. I prefer golems. On larger maps, where you have pleanty of time to develop, golems are better.

50hp for a 2nd lvl unit is huge, they also deal huge dmg. They are the last unit to move most of the time, but they move quite far. And most importantly they have resistance and are mechanical (lol at all the vampires), so the opponent wont mess with them with the spells.


Sos:

My friends' necro army (mainly vampires) which just anihilated my forces (mages, nagas and so on) tried to pick up an artie guarded by genies only. To my friends surprise the genies kicked his ass. That gives me hopes that other towns will be able to defeat necro (which in my opinion is the most powerfull).

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undead_wolf_...
undead_wolf_lad


Adventuring Hero
Undead Wolf Wrangler
posted April 03, 2002 07:59 AM

The one town I find fairly weak so far is the Preserve. The biggest reason is their magic options are completely based on summoning and the lower level summoning spells like Summon Wolf or Summon Sprite are fairly worthless. The summoning spells don't really balance things out until you get the level 4 and 5's. So until you can get your hero built up, it's a pretty weak magic user.
Other than that, I think they've done a pretty good job of balancing things out.
Necropolis still is very strong.
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Abazagaroth
Abazagaroth


Hired Hero
Paladin of Knowledge
posted April 03, 2002 08:09 AM

I disagree

Quote:
Bjorn190:

On L/XL maps if you bulid balista you gonna loose, its only good for a start then its useless.




I have to disagree here, balistas are particularly powerful, as they have no ranged penalties, and very good hp and damage. I've been pleased with them.

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dkreger@yahoo.com
http://www.modernhumanorigins.com

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brody
brody


Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
posted April 03, 2002 08:22 AM

Quote:
The one town I find fairly weak so far is the Preserve. The biggest reason is their magic options are completely based on summoning and the lower level summoning spells like Summon Wolf or Summon Sprite are fairly worthless. The summoning spells don't really balance things out until you get the level 4 and 5's. So until you can get your hero built up, it's a pretty weak magic user.
Other than that, I think they've done a pretty good job of balancing things out.
Necropolis still is very strong.


I don't know about that.  I have a priestess (life magic) and her nature spells are quite good.  Slow is great on fliers and fast walkers, wasp swarm is GREAT against anybody (freezes them for a round), that terrain movement spell can come in very handy on the many penalized terrains in the game, and even the weak summons can be useful.  Early on, a mere 6 sprites/round can really add up.  No retaliation and when they die, it's not a big deal because they aren't "real" troops.  In the early game, where people are still building level 1 and 2 creatures, sprites are great!

Plus, when you get basic summoning, you're getting free troops every single day!  My priest (expert summon) now gets an elven archer every day, and she's up to about 15 now.  Not a huge bonus, but considering I never have to go to a town and I still get a good ranged unit, I'm happy.  If she were pure nature magic instead of an all-around mage (in fact, she's an archmage now...), she'd have even more nature spells to choose from and probably would have gotten summoning skill much earlier, meaning more free troops... and don't confuse summon skill with spells.  When you have the skill, you get to add troops to your army permanently every day.  No spell points, no gold, just free troops.
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted April 03, 2002 11:45 AM

OK, just to add to the confusion:

Might is the most powerful!

Nomads are incredible level 2 units (fast, great hp, first strike, great movement), better than the golems if you ask me.

But might's biggest strength is the heroes and the cyclops. The heroes become incredibly tough, and with a little archery and tactic skills, they soon become fearsome. But the most awesome thing is the cyclop and it's area attack. They can deliver massive damage to four or five troops at a time! And with that tiny, crowded battlefield, the enemy is just forced to huddle up! They also have good hp.

And chaos will also rock in the end-game. Black dragons have more than 100 hp's more than the next "sturdiest" (meaning most hp) unit, and with the nightmare's paralyzing terror and 1)minotaurs blocking half the enemy's attacks (at least it feels like half when your playing against them or 2) the medusas awesome "mighty moo" stare included in their ranged attack.

Nature seems like the weakest, true, but the creature portal can really come in handy here. This means two level 4 creatures recruitable in town.

But vamps are from what I've seen, the best unit by far in HOMMIV. Sure, people will come up with specific strategies to handle them, but such a strategy might not always be optional or possible, and now I'm going for my breakfast.

Play well!
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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted April 03, 2002 12:13 PM

Actually might is the weakest.

The strongest is Order with golems genies and dragons, with 1 order mage, 1 necromancer and 1 knight.
They attack u with vampires, genies, halflings and dragon golems and smack u up so you dont know wich way to look

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Milena
Milena


Responsible
Supreme Hero
in supreme disgrace
posted April 03, 2002 12:23 PM

I don't think Nature is weak!!

Just the other way round!! Those fairies are ... OMG. They are killers!
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Milena

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WishMaster
WishMaster

Tavern Dweller
posted April 03, 2002 04:17 PM

I have noticed that 1 Faerie Dragons always do 65 damage it doesent matter how much defence skill the oppents has. That makes them to good level 4 slayers but not so good lvl 1-2 slayers. The confusing skill is awasome. U shall have 2 groups of Faerie Dragons, in one group you shall have only one Faerie Dragon and the rest in the other one. the group with only one dragon shall cast confusing spell so the oppent so he/she misses hes/hers turn, while the other bigger group one casts chain lightning.

And I tested Faerie Dragons against Faerie Dragons The oppent Dragon casted chain lightning on my dragon and my dragon sufferd 65 damage the the magic mirror appeared and casted chain lightning back on the caster and he suffered 33damege (the half damage) CooL!
Faerie Dragons RULEZZ!!!

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted April 03, 2002 06:10 PM
Edited By: Thunder on 3 Apr 2002

I'm amazed. People have been playing Heroes 4 barely half a week and claim to already know what is the strongest town in game.

So far what I have played they all seem to be powerful. But they need the power. What really prolongs the time it takes to win the game is neutral creatures which quard things and stuff.

I'm now playing that (only) XL map with Chaos alignment on Expert difficulty with moving guards. I bought Dragon dwelling in the fifth week and in third month I have some 6 of them (one died). I have four heroes: Druid, Archer, Thief (now ranger) and Sorcerer. I have bought my first town fully and I have no problems recruiting my monsters (in fact I have quite a lot surplus gold) and am building the second town (order). I have three ways out of my area: through portal (guarded by 20+ Titans and 30+ Nagas), through cyclops to the shipyard (more than 60 of them and they have company (ogre magi) and cyclops are darn bad now with their area attack), to the desert on the south (guarded by 20+ mantis). I still have some places in my area to conquer, for that purpose I have two separate stacks: Sorcerer with Black Dragons and rest of my heroes with rest of my forces. I use hit and run tactics with my sorcerer once in a while, leaving my Black Dragons behind, to soften tough stack with Implosion (currently I'm using it on 40+ Efreets). I attack them every turn and once their numbers are sufficient for my Black Dragons (+ Sorcerer) to handle without losses, I wipe them out of map. From thieves guild I have seen that my army is the most powerful at the moment.

I do like the thing that heroes take part of the battle. If one or two of them die, they are easily resurrected in  town.
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Re-Animator
Re-Animator


Adventuring Hero
posted April 03, 2002 09:54 PM

In defense of the Preserve

Even though I thought Faerie Dragons are great, I thought the Preserve wasn't one of the better towns until yesterday.  Then I started buying Water Elementals from the Creature Portal.  Their ability to cast Quicksand lets you dominate the battlefield against walkers (and even fliers).  You can create intricate patterns on the battlefield that makes it a virtual maze for the enemy to navigate.  This goes a long way to keeping your heroes and Elves alive (although nothing seems to keep wolves alive).

So far the only town I'm leery of is the Asylum.

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