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Thread: The power of cores | This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 05, 2013 05:09 PM |
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The power of cores
I remember well how many lvl 3 units were guarding the mines in H5 tournament maps - 40 unupgraded. Most factions played with all 1 lvl units, shooters upgraded and some fodder and dealt with the guards easily.
Now in H6 with one upgraded core and with another tank from 3 heroes one can get for example 24 furies and 20 maulers or 25 lilims and 18 hell hounds and so on. The other core unit I personally use to separate in 1s and try not to lose more than 2 per battle but sometimes it is inevitable to lose 4 or against easier guard you can do it with no losses.
With such creeping army one can kill 100 goblins or 85 shark guards or 60 kappa shoyas, furies or 70 ghouls etc without a single regeneration from hero.
With the same amount of cores/ lvl 1-3 units now one can kill a lot more than before.
Please discuss!
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted April 06, 2013 01:50 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 13:53, 06 Apr 2013.
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Is it wise to buy like three heroes at the start of the game? I mean, your economy is shattered. You are not getting that many starting resources (especially gold) in Heroes 6...
Don't know, I never played the game in such a way...
And BTW, from what I remember, back in the day devs talked a lot about their idea to make core units as substantial as possible, to the point that you won't even have to buy higher tier units to successfully play the game...
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 06, 2013 02:18 PM |
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Edited by natalka at 14:32, 06 Apr 2013.
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First, I am talking about my map. I am trying to make a tournament map for h6 based on my tournament map experience in h5. I am just using the pattern of many heroes, vigorous chaining back and forth and 4-5 battles per turn for main hero and there are locations where it is best to go with secondary. Fastest route let`s you clear the map end of week 2 after which on your side only 2 dragon topes are left to clear. I don`t copy things straight from h5 - it is a different game. Only those mechanics above I try to implement.
In h3 ppl bought 8 heroes day 1, in h5 we bought 5 heroes day 1 ...in H6 at first I made it so only 2 heroes can be bought day 1(limit gold) but after lots of redesigning now 3 heroes day 1 can be bought - there are 4 treasure chests free which you can snatch day 1 with secondaries(normal difficulty).
This is heroes...I thought where would the fun of the difficult chains be if there are 2 heroes for the first 3-4 days of the game. 3 heroes day 1 for H6 is normal I think. You can`t make lots of things with only 2 heroes and I have a fights with secondary heroes during the first days too.
YES, it sucks that they come with full army. I would prefer only main hero and first secondary hero to have full army and all others you buy to have 1 goblin for example like in previous heroes. That`s why I increased and increased those guards on the mines and they are now of the power I wrote in the above post.
And to answer your question about economy - you buy those 3 heroes and now you must fight "crypts" for gold or else you can`t build week 1. You ruin your economy to such extent that if you skip a battle for gold/res. with your hero you may skip building in town as well . That`s where the fun is, at least for me
Example: I see in underground 25 kenshi guard minor treasures and minor artifact which is +2 move points. You scout this area on day 1. Main hero doesn`t have enough MP to go there at all this week because he/she has lots of other tasks. I am haven and buy the heal specialty hero chain to her all troops and fight those kenshi day 2. I kill them and chain back troops to main hero who now has +2 MP. This would be impossible with 2 heroes or the map has to be really tiny.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted April 06, 2013 07:35 PM |
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Oh, so you're talking about those "specialized" kind of maps. That makes sense
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 07, 2013 12:42 AM |
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Edited by natalka at 00:53, 07 Apr 2013.
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64 pearl priestess and 10 kenshis take down 14 enraged cyclops just now ....omg with a secondary hero which was lvl 5. Priestess's healing is power. You are right. They made it so that even low level heroes can clear guards with da powaful corz
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 07, 2013 01:05 PM |
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Main reason I positively hated these maps and never got to play them is that you are forced to buy the maximum possible amount of heroes.
Things that are a must are redundant - that should be fairly obvious. I mean, if you make a map and give starting money allowing the recruitment of 3 Heroes, and then you calculate all battles for the starting forces of 3 heroes - then it makes no sense to do something else than recruiting 3 heroes, because with less you will have a problem.
In other words, the player has no options, but just a big road to follow.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 07, 2013 01:28 PM |
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No, main reason you don't play such maps is that you never played MP. Giving the right amount of money, dwellings and creatures at start is like giving a carpenter the right tools to build a house. By the time he finishes it, you can make conclusion if was good carpenter or not, but at least he could not complain the lack of tools. In general, more you let randomness in MP maps, more the people will complain and refuse to play that map. Not that I agree, I strongly disagree because it takes out the surprise but that's it, big masses decide.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 07, 2013 01:51 PM |
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You are wrong, of course - I did even win the 3do forum tourney in - what? - 1999 and have the tin figures of a titan and a dendroid to prove it, and I've been playing HoMM 3 mp privately (outside the leagues) for a long time - just not the silly tourney maps. The only thing that would have made me play the "full array of tools" kind of maps would have been a severe time limit of 30 Secs per turn, but that's not what the masses want either.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 07, 2013 02:21 PM |
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Playing fast is most of time opposite to playing well, unless required by speed tournament. No surprise noobs asking for game always want 1 min turn limit.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 07, 2013 03:04 PM |
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Everyone can build a good house with unlimited tools and unlimited time.
It's the wannabees who are against a time limit, because a time limit needs prioritizing and that's what wannabees can't or don't want.
A good player is good on every kind of map and every condition, time limit or not, because if he isn't, he's just a specialist. Being a specialist often involves only mechanical repetition of processes that were perfected due to always doing/playing the same things.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 07, 2013 03:46 PM |
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People usually invest hours in the game to get better, and this can't be done within 30 seconds turn. Repetitive moves maybe, but managing less and less casualties from game to game is the path to mastery. Need thinking, evaluating, not just rush mobs.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 07, 2013 04:29 PM |
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That, however, is impossible, when you have "every tool available". If you have everything available, you'll always go for the GENERALLY best way - best example: HoMM 6 skill ladder.
However, if things are tighter, you have to make decisions and find the way that is best in that specific situation. Best example: Skill ladders before that.
What is true for skill ladders is true for general game environment as well. The map must not be too rich nor too poor, the starting money and resources must not be too big, but not too small either (starting with nothing at all would be foolish in MP). It should be clear that it would be advantageous to immediately hire one other hero, but why should it be clear that it was advantageous to hire yet another one AND yet another one, AND yet another one AND ... - and even if they don't come with additional troops?
Makes no sense at all. Not only that - it lengthens turns, and unnecessarily so. In HoMM 3 there were no SimTurns, so if you wanted to play MP it was important to have fast turns, otherwise it would take too long, so the reasonable decision was either time limit or "normal" (that is, neither rich nor poor) maps played on expert difficulty. Which is what I played in my time.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 07, 2013 04:37 PM |
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Edited by natalka at 18:14, 07 Apr 2013.
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I can make the custom map very random using the scripts - you can make random locations and so on. I just need help in the process.
JJ, about those heroes with troops.. I dunno.. I rather they came with no troops. Nevertheless, I think I made it reasonable enough to buy 3 heroes day 1 and until end of week 2 you buy another 2 heroes for troops and/or skills like architect I,II and economist II.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 07, 2013 06:29 PM |
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What is so great, paving the way for players to hire 3 heroes immediately and then 2 more at the end of week 2 (when it pays to hire at least one, since he will be better than every secondary you hired day 1)?
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 07, 2013 08:57 PM |
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First three heroes I hire are lvl 1. The last hero I hire is for architect II and troops- he pays off his value very fast building capitol etc.
I have lvl 8 hero which I just bought middle of second week but I spend all his skills points on secondary skills - architect and economist and another secondary which is lvl 5,6 who lvl up on his own fighting neutrals but he/she has skills that can help in final stages of the game - killing other scouts and so on.
What do you advise - to remove so much gold that 5 heroes can`t be bought. I already told you if you buy it before capitol and fortification the hero pays off his "extra value".
I am open to advice whatsoever. I want to make my map the best and I am very thorough in the process of testing and everything arround
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 07, 2013 09:14 PM |
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You have to consider that you can play your map with 3 different level-up speeds.
Generally, the problem with HoMM 6 is that you have a plethora of meaningless battles, with only your main hero being a concern, since you can buy a cool hero once your hero gains level over 5. Knowing that, and having heroes cost a lot - shouldn't the investment into more than one additional hero (you can use one additional hero for quite a lot of interesting things) early on be a QUESTIONABLE decision, then? One that MIGHT pay, considering the additional pair of legs and troops? But not necessarily?
I mean, playing on normal is starting you off with 5000 gold which I think is pretty fine , because it gives you a lot of options. It would clearly seem that the best you can do is invest the 5000 into a Hall of Heroes and another hero, but why would you give a hero more money to hire yet another hero to get more troops and more mobility?
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted April 07, 2013 11:59 PM |
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I never liked fighting people with 8+ heroes. They would have no army to fight because they wasted all of their money trying to boost their early game, and they just ran around recapping anything I took. I would eventually take all their towns, but it was like driving through a swarm of bugs.
I do think that hiring a second or third hero early should be good, but that nonsense of rushing 8 heroes was not what the game was about.
____________
I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 08, 2013 08:39 AM |
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Edited by natalka at 08:45, 08 Apr 2013.
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This is "heroes", no? Three starting heroes is a lot? Do you know that moving without troops gives you 7 more movement points? That means that every turn there is a secondary hero nearby your main you can "quicken" your main hero. Moreover I have to make the starting zone really tiny so that I can get troops from main and return it to him upgraded with only 2 heroes. The maps I played in competitive H5 so far allowed buying more heroes. I know this is H6 but 2 heroes is not enough imo.
My map is fast - you clear your side end of week 2 ,beginning of week 3. So mobility from day 1 is crucial. I can make it so less heroes are needed but then it will play longer. That`s my taste - lots of micromanagement and mobility with heroes so I can move army and take everything like a spider web.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted April 08, 2013 01:56 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 13:57, 08 Apr 2013.
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Everybody plays the game how he likes...
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 08, 2013 02:18 PM |
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Yes, but I have to make a map that is good according to many ppl.
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