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| Thread: Political Parties are Dumb |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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PandaTar
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posted November 11, 2020 07:26 PM |
bonus applied by Corribus on 09 Dec 2020. |
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Here in Brazil in 2020, we have currently 33 parties registered. I'm particularly oblivious to most of them, their drives and points. My awareness goes as far as I see some of their representatives gaining a bit of space in my circle of information, which is not very ample but the known ones I am considerable aware of them.
There are plenty of coalitions when the bigger picture is considered, so they are gathered in ways that I mostly look for the biggest ones and disregard the rest, as they follow a similar premise. In that sense, I am not sure if having so many parties is actually productive. The smallest ones seldom go alone on their way to the public, always leeching upon bigger ones, feeling as if they are a simple branch and not another real and meaningful group of ideals.
The two biggest forces in this country are the Right and the Left. The Center has not seen much power yet. We have been governed by the Left for almost as long as I remember, I think I have never been governed by the Right wing until Bolsonaro, and even now, Bolsonaro has no party. He had one, but after he got his new job, he quit. I think that was ... odd. However, not bad. Still, he has his flaws, as all others had. Corruption had decreased a lot, but it's far from nonexistent. He is also very adamat on protecting his cores, personal ones, which I don't find much acceptable, for they feel a lot like exceptions on the whole and hard do bent; still, many plans which seemed heavily criticized by population have been put on hold or cancelled, which shows that he at least listens. But the fundamentally wrong things that were weaved through the years by our left party governments, these ones I am sure I will not be here in this world anymore if they ever change for the better. That makes me sure that power must swing both ways. People must be made aware of all the picture, even if they not agree, at least understand.
I confess I don't understand what my workmates see that they still support the last government. That's something I really do not understand and do not agree with. The solution I found for me to deal with that is to trust these people I really know that they want better days for all of us, even if it's through a different perspective. They also don't understand the kind of politics being played today. They feared Bolsonaro would hunt down homossexuals or take away women rights, etc. I wonder if those who thought that really believed that people, even those voting for Bolsonaro, would simply let that happen. I wonder if they didn't trust even us to step in and protect them. That's what I think it's lacking everywhere, trust between loved ones, friends, those we know would fight for us, even against the odds, against some things they knew their government could fail, but didn't simply blindly accepted it. A lot of homossexual friends of mine actually voted on Bolsonaro, so what's their logic? Their motivation, their core or expectations upon that? Who can actually judge that better than themselves?
So, in my point of view, parties can be even just a background. What I think it's lacking and what's really important is to trust each other, those we profoundly know and who would fight for a better tomorrow beside you, even with disagreements.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Corribus
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The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 11, 2020 07:42 PM |
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@JJ
I agree - my experience is limited to a two party system, which is effectively what we have in the US. I could imagine that it may work out better where additional parties are available to represent a broader range of viewpoints.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JoonasTo
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posted November 11, 2020 08:08 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 20:13, 11 Nov 2020.
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For you to vote for a person, it has to be a FPTP-system. Not proportional.
Like many presidential elections are but even then most candidates come from parties and you can bet they will uphold the party line because of all the money, time and effort poured into them by the party.
JollyJoker said:
Local elections are exclusively personal
Except they aren't. Finnish municipal elections are proportional, open list elections. Not personal. Wiki even tells me Germany has proprotional for some municipal elections.
And you think local level decisions don't make it to common knowledge in this modern day and age of fast information? Everything is instantly in social media.
JollyJoker said:
And then there are elections of parliaments - those are the party stuff mostly, but even there you vote for a specific person as well.
*snip*
The bottom line is, the party line is fine and all, but in the end it all depends on the qualities of the actual people you vote.
Except it doesn't. If a party executes party discipline, the members have to vote according to the party policy. Regardless of their personal opinion, or what they stood for in the election.
They can ofc, theoretically, vote according to their own position but that will be met with repercussions. Ultimately leading to their removal from the party. They can serve their term to the end but not many parties want to take people like that so in the next election they will be without a party and be unable to be elected.
This is due to how proportional representation works. A nonpartisan running for an election in it will not have enough votes to get in because of all the other candidates getting the votes of their party behind them. It's technically not impossible, but practically undoable. And that doesn't even touch on the party support mechanisms with money, personnel and training.
There are certain characters that can do that, but for the average MP, it's just not possible.
All this assumes you even have an open list to vote from, and not a closed or somewhat closed one like in a lot of countries. In that case the party literally picks the people to go through and you only vote for the party.
So if you really want to change anything, you have to have a voice strong enough to persuade the majority(or a strong enough minority to be able to trade for something else) in a party or be successfull in establishing your own. Independent just won't cut it in a proportional system.
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FirePaladin
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posted November 11, 2020 08:27 PM |
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Here in Romania, we have a few big parties which are actually the same snow with another name and countless small parties that nobody knows about.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2020 08:37 PM |
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In each election in Germany you vote for a person, who may or may not (in local elections) be part of a party. This is even true in the presidential election where you have two votes.
The first one is a vote for the candidate of your electoral district, and the guy elected will go into the German Bundestag, the German Parliament.
The second vote is a party/presidential vote. This is the vote that is for the chancellor and the parties. When the election is over, the party percentages allow for a certain number representatives. If the results of the first vote allow more representatives than those directly elected, the parties fill their ranks with their list. If they have more than those, they keep those.
There was a case once where a party had one 3 "direct mandates", but the party didn't get the necessary 5% to have representatives - the result was that the 3 directly elected WAS in the parliament, but without faction status.
Repeat - in Germany you vote ALWAYS a person; even if you vote for a party, you vote for the person you want to have as what is our president.
In Germany votes are often secret, and it happens frequently that the results are not what they should be in terms of party discipline.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted November 11, 2020 10:44 PM |
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Postcommunists countries are another than West.
But in Poland similiar.
Republicans 45% and 51% in congress 49% in senat
Democrats 27%
Communists 7%
Farmer party 6% (village communists).
... This is mainstream. Similiar program
And coalition of nationals and libertarians 10-12% ( my choice)
And this coalition still groving up.
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