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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2008 03:23 AM |
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Angels? Air creatures?
There should only be one Angel creature, because I don't want to see creatures with names like "Angel Minion" and "Angel Archmage". As for air creatures, besides the Griffin, which takes great lengths to justify story-wise, what other air creatures could they put in Haven? Hawks? Vultures? Sparrows? "After the demise of the Falcon Dynasty, Duke Ivan Griffin, Hawk, and Vulture took over, and renamed the Falcon Empire into the Griffin, Hawk, and Vulture Empire." Does that sound good?
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Eccentric Opinion
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zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 14, 2008 04:46 AM |
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I saw your post Asheera this morning and I wasn't quite sure how to explain Haven. I couldn't agree more with A5ado, he really explained it very well. I couldn't have done it any better myself. I also, don't particularly play Haven, but I do have a friend that uses that castle all the time. I mostly, play Necropolis and Sylvan, but honestly I would play dungeon more if there just wasn't so many elves. I really love the super destructive spells and the warlocks abilities, but the lack of the variation of creatures makes the castle less interesting and less enjoyable(plus I miss the manticore lol).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 14, 2008 07:28 AM |
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Again, this underscores the very fundamental difference between the two ways of viewing the fantasy world:
1) Realism: Only Humans are real. Humans are seen as different from all other speciae.
2) "Fantasism": Accepts the creatures as being real in the world where the game takes place - i.e. Humans, Elf, Dwarves, Orcs and even Dragons and Angels are equally "real" within this world.
For me, the latter approach makes more sense, because that's the only way the world can be brought to life - watching the game from a realistic purpose will make the game non-sense, because we know there are in fact no Elves, Dragons, or any Magic spells. That doesn't mean my way of viewing is the only true or valid one, it's just the one I prefer.
Notice that things are turned upside down when it comes to a game like Civilization: Civilization is all about realism and our actual world, introducing Elves, Dragons or Spells in a game like Civilization would make it complete non-sense.
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What will happen now?
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted July 14, 2008 10:46 AM |
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Certainly - themes!
With possibility to choose creatures - it is best for tactic and making own unique army with random monsters.
Generally Iam big fan of H4 so I want to see alot of things and IMO good idea's from this game.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 14, 2008 02:35 PM |
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Quote:
I saw your post Asheera this morning and I wasn't quite sure how to explain Haven. I couldn't agree more with A5ado, he really explained it very well. I couldn't have done it any better myself.
Please excuse my ignorance, but you do this all the time, and I have yet to understand why you do not consider the humans an "exception" from the other towns.
As alcibiades said, if you want a pure fantasy game that doesn't make any reasonable sense, then do not put humans in there. Once you put them, however, it's only natural for others to be 'similar' at least in the reasonable regard. I mean, why make exceptions for humans? This is not a human vs everything else... If you make it that way, you are automatically making humans "special" something which in a game with more cultured races, does not make any sense.
Again, if you want a game without any sense, then why use humans? Play Pacman. 
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2008 03:16 PM |
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What some people seem to be missing is that the presence of a race doesn't mean that there isn't a theme, and vice versa. You can have a race with or without a theme, and a theme with of without a race. Look at H5 Haven. That's a race and a theme. Look at H3 Fortress. That's not a race, but is a theme. There aren't any towns in HoMM history without both race and theme, and there isn't one without theme but with race.
But here is an example of a town with race but with no theme:
1. Elf Minion
2. Blade Dancer
3. Elf Musketeer
4. Elven Steam Engine
5. Elven Druid
6. Elven Hydra Rider
7. Elven Forgemaster
You race-based fans don't want a town like that, do you?
And there's another reason for Haven to be different, as I have stated earlier: besides it being different from Dungeon in that Humans actually exist, it makes more sense for humans to be mostly alone. I mean, with whom can Haven ally?
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Eccentric Opinion
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 14, 2008 03:22 PM |
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What some people seem to be missing is that the presence of a race doesn't mean that there isn't a theme, and vice versa.
Quoting from post 3 and 4, page 1:
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Problem is, dwarves can be seen as both, ie, they're race based apparently, but also theme based, with that theme being nordic mythology, which kind of breaks your poll.
I think this pretty much sums it up: In order to make a good town, you need to have both a "race" and a theme. And with race, I mean either a humanoid race (Human, Dwarf, Elf, etc.) or what you could call a creature type (i.e. Undead, Demon, etc.). I think that so far, we can pretty much all agree.
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What will happen now?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 14, 2008 03:24 PM |
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You race-based fans don't want a town like that, do you?
WTF town! No so I guess we want both a race and a theme then
Quote:
And there's another reason for Haven to be different, as I have stated earlier: besides it being different from Dungeon in that Humans actually exist, it makes more sense for humans to be mostly alone. I mean, with whom can Haven ally?
With whom can Dungeon ally? Sure you can "invent" creatures or "import" them from mythology, but why not with humans? I mean, if you want to have a 100% mythological game where humans are "exceptions", it's better to not have humans at all. Why should everybody be different, it just makes no reasonable sense. I'm not saying that no one should be different, but why EVERY other town?
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 14, 2008 03:26 PM |
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Hey, Haven is the Brussel-halle-vilvoorde of this argument! 
(Only lex will understand this)
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 14, 2008 03:29 PM |
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Quote:
What some people seem to be missing is that the presence of a race doesn't mean that there isn't a theme, and vice versa. You can have a race with or without a theme, and a theme with of without a race. Look at H5 Haven. That's a race and a theme. Look at H3 Fortress. That's not a race, but is a theme. There aren't any towns in HoMM history without both race and theme, and there isn't one without theme but with race.
But here is an example of a town with race but with no theme:
1. Elf Minion
2. Blade Dancer
3. Elf Musketeer
4. Elven Steam Engine
5. Elven Druid
6. Elven Hydra Rider
7. Elven Forgemaster
You race-based fans don't want a town like that, do you?
As I said, it's better to have a race and a theme. Here's a quote of mine from an earlier post:Quote:
Some people like theme-based, some race-based, so the best IMO is to make a compromise (some also said they want this!). That's perfectly fine with me. This means that every town should have half of the creatures race-based and half other "themed" creatures. So, let's analyze H5:
Haven, Necropolis and Inferno don't count, as nobody has problems with them.
Sylvan - 3 out of 7 -> perfect!
Dungeon - 4 out of 7 -> perfect!
Stronghold - 3 out of 7 -> perfect!
Fortress - 6 out of 7. I know, this is a purely race-based town, but it is in perfect contrast with Academy which is a theme-based town, since it has 1 out of 7 race-based creatures.
So let's just say H5 is the best and all next Heroes should be made like this
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And there's another reason for Haven to be different, as I have stated earlier: besides it being different from Dungeon in that Humans actually exist, it makes more sense for humans to be mostly alone.
The problem is that you compare with reality. You have to think from the game's perspective and see what "reality" means. In the world of Ashan, humans are no more special than elves and certainly not more "real". Humans should not be the only different town than the others.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2008 03:34 PM |
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Yes, but story-wise it makes no sense. You could add wolves to the Sylvan lineup. You could add giant salamanders to the Dungeon lineup. But you can't do anything like that to the Humans. I mean, Humans are in the universe, but they are still much the same as they are in reality. That is, humans are humans, no matter where they are. If you had a race of cannibals, I'd only expect 1 creature of that race to be in a lineup, because it wouldn't make sense to put creatures that would eat each other in the same army. Humans are sort of similar. It wouldn't make much sense for there to be wolves or salamanders in Haven.
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As I said, it's better to have a race and a theme.
You have to have a theme for the town to make sense at all. But you don't have to have a race.
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Fortress - 6 out of 7. I know, this is a purely race-based town, but it is in perfect contrast with Academy which is a theme-based town, since it has 1 out of 7 race-based creatures
No, because the Academy lineup makes sense to only have 1 creature of their race (unless you want creatures called "Mage Minion"). Fortress, though, could include a Firebird or a Thunderbird instead of the Thane, and it would break the monotony.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 14, 2008 03:37 PM |
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If you had a race of cannibals, I'd only expect 1 creature of that race to be in a lineup, because it wouldn't make sense to put creatures that would eat each other in the same army
Like 100 cannibals in a stack wouldn't want to eat each other I'm saying that it doesn't matter the number of cannibals in tiers, because Heroes has stacks and not individual creatures
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2008 03:39 PM |
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Yes, but stacks are supposed to be treated as one creature. And the hero is supposed to keep them from eating each other, anyway. But when you have an army-full of cannibals, and your hero is a cannibal too, you have a problem.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 14, 2008 03:39 PM |
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Humans are universally a very populous race. They already rule over 3 / 8 towns (counting Necropolis)... there aren't so many Elves or Dwarves* or whatever on the planet, which does explain why there's more Humans across the board. Plus as was demonstrated earlier, there's no more Humans in the Haven now than there are Demons in the Inferno or Skeletals in the Necropolis 
*Reason 4, Subsection C: "Why I dislike the HoF Fortress"
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2008 03:45 PM |
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I wouldn't really call the Demons a race, though. They're more of a group. I mean, you wouldn't say that an Imp and a Devil are of the same race, would you? The real "Demons" are the heroes, and all of the creatures are underling Demons.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 14, 2008 03:47 PM |
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Quote:
I wouldn't really call the Demons a race, though. They're more of a group. I mean, you wouldn't say that an Imp and a Devil are of the same race, would you? The real "Demons" are the heroes, and all of the creatures are underling Demons.
Zerg (Starcraft) is a race too you know?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 14, 2008 03:47 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 15:50, 14 Jul 2008.
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Yes, I would consider Imps and Devils a part of the same race. Nival have yet to imply otherwise. Plus note the Devil's upgraded title: Arch Demon
With Heroes III it was a different story, because we were bombarded with lore which explained the relations between each creature. Nival don't even offer us clarity on whether Thanes are Dwarves.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 14, 2008 03:50 PM |
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Quote:
The real "Demons" are the heroes, and all of the creatures are underling Demons.
Actually the leaders of inferno were originally dark elves. Well, ignore the really high ranking ones like kha-beleth or Biara 'cuz i'm not sure of that.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 14, 2008 03:50 PM |
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Where's that mentioned?
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 14, 2008 03:51 PM |
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Well, i'm thinking of Agrael... wait a sec, while I check my source.
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