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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted February 22, 2010 09:40 PM |
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Where we are gods (guess what book...).
Autotheism is the belief where you are self a God.
I believe in God, because I think human intelligence and, in fact, the start of life itself (biogenesis) is something so excellent that it cannot have come from its own. That is all. I also think Go is the force that set everything in motion.
And, xerox, you're not offensive, as long as you respect the people you're addressing. Though, what the hell? Gay jesus?
You know that those robes were the dress of the time and those images of him are incorrect, he probably didn't even have a beard. That was a concession they made to the pagans. So the way youasked the question was rather disrespectful. 
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 22, 2010 09:48 PM |
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You know that those robes were the dress of the time
Still fantasy though, because the world started when xerox was born. There was nothing before that.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 22, 2010 09:50 PM |
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I got three questions to religious people:
1. ...
2. ...
3. ...
4. ...
Did you seriously expect atheists could count to three? 
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 22, 2010 09:54 PM |
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I got it from Dan Browns The Lost Symbol. It says that we are gods.
If I created a religion, I would mean to believe in yourself when I said that we were Gods. But I hate metaphors. That's why the Bible is a bit messed up because it seems so cryptic (I have read to much Dan Brown xD).
So you believe in God because you find it hard to believe that everything just happened randomly without a reason?
Okay. That's good enough.
Do you believe in the miracles in the Bible then and all "supernatural" stuff there then?
Nah, I have nothing against religion. But I am interested in why so many people think that we are watched over some kind of alien that floats around in space and creates things and believe that some people actually go and burn forever in an underground realm and others float around in eternal happiness among the clouds.
So I have nothing against religion. It's not like I gas christians in my basement/cellar. Elton John said Jesus was gay and I thought it was amusing and homosexuality was common in Ancient Greece etc and accepted I think. And it's always a possibility.
But I guess it depended on where you lived.
Personally, I am a 100% sure Jesus existed but was in fact - a human. Just like us. A prophet. I agree that how artists paint Jesus is very inaccurate. I mean, shouldn't he look middle-eastern?
I wonder if many in the US realizes that Jesus might have looked like a terrorist lol. xD
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 22, 2010 10:01 PM |
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Well xerox, before I answer - why do YOU believe in UFO, kraken and other weird things?
Before you start "not understanding" others, perhaps you should start with yourself?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Ichirguboil
Hired Hero
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posted February 22, 2010 10:06 PM |
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It's sort of difficult question for me to answer because I don't follow any religion, including Atheism (for me that's sort of religion - the belief that there is no god is again religion  ). I don't follow and I won't follow in ANY circumstances Christianity, don't care I have risen in a Christian family and our civilization is Christian. I don't like world religions because they are not for the spiritual matter of any human, they are made for gaining power and ruling over people who believe you. I don't follow any religulous rule only because it has survived the time and it is used from the poeple or because it's just part of some system of beliefs. I respect other people's beliefs and rules and I am trying to think why is that, why they make it this way, why these rules can be live today and why not, why I like them or I don't. So the important thing is just to follow your heart and it will tell you what you have to do, because everyone is unique and it's stupid to act in the same manner. I believe everything is made of energy and maybe God, or may I say, all the gods are just sort of ... pile of energy and those piles become more powerful if many people believe in that god. Believe in the afterlife, too, because, again, human soul is energy and it won't stop circulate through the Universe 
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 22, 2010 10:08 PM |
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What?
When did I ever say that. Or are you unable to detect sarcasm and irony?
Do you know what an UFO is? Of course unidentified flying objects exists. But that doesnt mean that I believe that aliens are secretly infilitrating the UN to make Earth their greatest colony.
Kraken is a hard one. The Kraken was based on sightings of Giant Squids, which have been proved to exist. So perhaps I do believe in the kraken or krakens, since they are basically the same thing as the giant squid with some exaggeration powder.
People say I am off-topic. I got a -QP for that. But everyday I see people going off-topic here. Even at this very moment.
And yes, this is off-topic but I feel that I have the right to defend myself. If you excuse me, I will ignore you now. If you want to discuss your claims that I believe in the Kraken, then make a thread in the Volcanic Wasteland or in the Tavern and I will reply there.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted February 22, 2010 10:11 PM |
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homosexuality was common in Ancient Greece etc and accepted I think. And it's always a possibility.
Do you have the FAINTEST idea where jerusalem is? You're ripping on americans all the time, but you're failing here at basic geography as well
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Do you believe in the miracles in the Bible then and all "supernatural" stuff there then?
I believe they are metaphors. I do not follow much of the old testament. The old testament is only useful in order to understand the background of the new testament, in my humble opinion. And I believe the miracles in the new testament are metaphors.
Also, while you make it sound as if I believe in God, using him to fill the gaps in of what we don't know, it's not exactly that. It's hard to explain. I don't believe in God out of fear or out of lack of knowledge. It's possible to look at things the way they are (you're nothing but a set of carbon molecules), but you can still attach a highe meaning to them (you are an individual), so can I look at the laws of nature and life and intelligence and call it God
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 22, 2010 10:21 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:32, 22 Feb 2010.
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Well, Israel is currently in Eurasia and Ancient Greek was in Afro-Eurasia.
Anyway, off-topic discussion about me goes here: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=32432
I hate the Bible because of metaphors. Was it really so nescessary to make everything so cryptic and weird? xD
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Also, while you make it sound as if I believe in God, using him to fill the gaps in of what we don't know, it's not exactly that. It's hard to explain. I don't believe in God out of fear or out of lack of knowledge. It's possible to look at things the way they are (you're nothing but a set of carbon molecules), but you can still attach a highe meaning to them (you are an individual), so can I look at the laws of nature and life and intelligence and call it God
I meant that it sounds like you believe in God because you dont think everything is random and without a purpose/meaning.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 22, 2010 10:30 PM |
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I hate the Bible because of metaphors. Was it really so nescessary to make everything so cryptic and weird? xD
You wanted it stored like what, digitally on iPods as a programming language?
And yeah I guess those chinese have similar traits to europeans, after all, they are both in Eurasia.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 22, 2010 10:45 PM |
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Sure xerox, you can ignore me, no prob. Still, quite shocking that you, believing in "unidentified" or "unexplained" things, can't understand people who just believe in different type of "unidentified" or "unexplained". You ask us why do we believe in God? Same reason why you believe in aliens, or Kraken (yes, you did admit it once, should I really quote you?), or something else.
Because we want to.
That's also why an argument that "religion is mass mind control" is stupid (sorry, Ichirguboil ) - I chose what I believe in, and I'm happy about it. And I want to do it. Where do you see that "control" part? who controls me and why?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 22, 2010 10:58 PM |
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Of course everybody has the right to believe in ANYTHING. If people want to believe in Satan, then let them do that as long as it doesnt hurt other people etc.
And everybody has the right to have their own opinion.
In my opinion, religion can be used to basically brainwash people (I guess you would consider Scientology in this category?) and control people.
Once again, if you want to discuss ME then there is a thread in the Volcanic Wastelands. But that is unrelated to whats being discussed here.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Ichirguboil
Hired Hero
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posted February 22, 2010 11:08 PM |
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Yeah, you choose what you believe in, I haven't said you don't. I just said why I won't. About the mind control thing ... look throughout history and you will understand what I mean. With the coming of the Christianity in the Late Roman Empire as an official religion Christians begin to hunt the pagans as the pagans were hunting them ( Lol, excellent way to prove the humanity of the new religion, don't you think?). The truth is they had kind of short memory I they didn't remember what they had suffered and made other poeple suffer in the same way. It's not because of the masses of the people. Most of them didn't have education and the only thing they needed was food and work - that's why Christianity was loved back in the old days - because it was religion of the poorer people at the very beginning. But when it was claimed as a official religion nothing remained the same The faith of the pople was used as a tool to control them to do what the Elite wanted. Think of the "hidden gospels", for example. What the Bible says nowadays is not what it used to say 2000 years ago. Then it was an excellent book, but now "we are the sheep and we have our shepherd" or something like that.
What I can't forgive is the oppresion against science and englightment which used to be made by the Chuch (controlling uneducated people is more easier). Think about the Inquizition and the people which have been burnt because they said that the Earth is sphere and it circles around the Sun. My point is whatever it becomes a word religion, it spoils because of greedy people They modify it and they change it like they want it to be. So do you actually have an idea how much the Christianity has changed for 2000 years considering that fact. Do you understand that you don't believe in the idea of Humanity which has been testamented by Jesus ... you believe in some really twisded idea ... and it's not your fault ... it's not the fault who believes in that. But there are many things in Christianity which I don't like nor I approve, nor I think are good for people. And let's say that they are more than the good things. That's why I can't follow such an religion
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 22, 2010 11:25 PM |
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Yeah, you choose what you believe in, I haven't said you don't. I just said why I won't. About the mind control thing ... look throughout history and you will understand what I mean. With the coming of the Christianity in the Late Roman Empire as an official religion Christians begin to hunt the pagans as the pagans were hunting them ( Lol, excellent way to prove the humanity of the new religion, don't you think?).
I covered this many times before.
It's as much of a reason to kill people as money, fame, looks, smell, whatever your mind can conjure as an excuse.
There is a certain lack of logic here...
I kill you because I'm Christian and you're pagan. That means religion is guilty, right?
ergo...
I kill you because I'm a rock fan and you're a techno fan. That means rock is guilty, right?
It is just pointless. The reason - much like the tool - shouldn't take the blame. The person who did this - despite the reason - should.
So, if I kill you, it's because I'm a twisted person who wants to kill you, and even when I say it's because of music, weather, religion or anything, it means ****. I just kill you. I can even blame the grass. Whatever.
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The truth is they had kind of short memory I they didn't remember what they had suffered and made other poeple suffer in the same way. It's not because of the masses of the people. Most of them didn't have education and the only thing they needed was food and work - that's why Christianity was loved back in the old days - because it was religion of the poorer people at the very beginning. But when it was claimed as a official religion nothing remained the same The faith of the pople was used as a tool to control them to do what the Elite wanted.
Every concept, even good to the core, can be used to twist people. That doesn't mean the concept is bad. Ecology is good in principles, but when it's used to manipulate people to "kill those who pollute the planet", it can't be called bad because of it. It's just another tool in the wrong hands. It's the hands that should be blamed - the people that use concepts of any kind to manipulate people. THEY should take the blame (i.e. the Pope or the priests), not their religion.
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Think of the "hidden gospels", for example. What the Bible says nowadays is not what it used to say 2000 years ago. Then it was an excellent book, but now "we are the sheep and we have our shepherd" or something like that.
True. Still, that's something we can't change. That's why we shouldn't take Bible TOO seriously, I think. It's not a secret that it has been modified over years.
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What I can't forgive is the oppresion against science and englightment which used to be made by the Chuch (controlling uneducated people is more easier).
Which is essentialy the same thing as above.
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Think about the Inquizition and the people which have been burnt because they said that the Earth is sphere and it circles around the Sun. My point is whatever it becomes a word religion, it spoils because of greedy people They modify it and they change it like they want it to be. So do you actually have an idea how much the Christianity has changed for 2000 years considering that fact. Do you understand that you don't believe in the idea of Humanity which has been testamented by Jesus ... you believe in some really twisded idea ... and it's not your fault ... it's not the fault who believes in that. But there are many things in Christianity which I don't like nor I approve, nor I think are good for people. And let's say that they are more than the good things. That's why I can't follow such an religion
There are some universal truths about following Jesus that can't be changed. Respect towards other people, lack of arrogance, etc. You can say that you don't need Jesus to be like that, and it's true. But we Christians just like it this way.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 23, 2010 07:23 AM |
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True. Still, that's something we can't change. That's why we shouldn't take Bible TOO seriously, I think. It's not a secret that it has been modified over years.
Why would you believe in something, when you don't take the only available source for your belief "too seriously"? That doesn't make sense. It would be FAR FAR more logical to trust in Christ (or God) to have an eye upon HIS WORD, so that it wouldn't be changed, don't you think? I mean, IF God wants His Word to be preached, so that people know of him and so on, IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, that His Word is His Word and not some nonsense a couple of people concocted. Otherwise he never needed to have bothered, right? The Devil might have changed things willingly, for example, by his minions.
If you just think things through for a minute, if you believe in all that, you MUST NECESSARILY believe in the "ultimate correctness" of the Bible, because if god would allow "corruption" of His Word, then EVERYTHING could (and probably would) be corrupted.
So this "picking" of morsels out of the Bible is - in my opinion - the worst kind of thing you can do. It's like listening to a weather forcast, saying, in the morning there will be a thunderstorm, but in the afternoon it will be sunny and dry with 28 degrees, and you are already looking forward to the sunny afternoon, considering sun-bathing, but the thunderstorm you dismiss, because "weather forcasts are known to get it wrong sometimes".
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There are some universal truths about following Jesus that can't be changed. Respect towards other people, lack of arrogance, etc. You can say that you don't need Jesus to be like that, and it's true. But we Christians just like it this way.
"Universal truths"? Well, let's not be too picky here and nod. LOTS of people have found what you might call Universal Truth (and I don't mean laws of nature); you just need to take a look upon a couple of Philosophers even BEFORE Christ to see that he has no copyright on things. Confucius, for example, lived 500 years BEFORE Christ, and look at what HE taught. This wiki quote here is rather interesting:
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One of the deepest teachings of Confucius may have been the superiority of personal exemplification over explicit rules of behavior. His moral teachings emphasized self-cultivation, emulation of moral exemplars, and the attainment of skilled judgment rather than knowledge of rules, Confucius's ethics may be considered a type of virtue ethics. His teachings rarely rely on reasoned argument, and ethical ideals and methods are conveyed more indirectly, through allusions, innuendo, and even tautology. This is why his teachings need to be examined and put into proper context in order to be understood.
Sound familiar somehow? Well, you know what they say is Confucius' most famous teaching, right?
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Zi gong (a disciple of Confucius) asked: "Is there any one word that could guide a person throughout life?"
The Master replied: "How about 'shu' [reciprocity]: never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself?"
So let's be fair here: As a, let's call it humanist, Jesus is just one of a couple like him. And since we know of others like him - Confucius, for example, we son't need to make him a god or a son of a god FOR THAT REASON: IF we did, others qualified as well.
So him being "humanist" ain't enough for making him figurehead of a religious belief.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 23, 2010 11:44 AM |
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Why would you believe in something, when you don't take the only available source for your belief "too seriously"?
Perhaps I should clarify. I don't care for Old Testment, I do care for the New one. Taking the Old one seriously seems rather pointless to me.
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That doesn't make sense. It would be FAR FAR more logical to trust in Christ (or God) to have an eye upon HIS WORD, so that it wouldn't be changed, don't you think? I mean, IF God wants His Word to be preached, so that people know of him and so on, IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, that His Word is His Word and not some nonsense a couple of people concocted. Otherwise he never needed to have bothered, right? The Devil might have changed things willingly, for example, by his minions.
Essentialy, this question belongs in the "if God wishes people well, why does he allow XXX or YYY". It has been covered before in this thread, I think.
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If you just think things through for a minute, if you believe in all that, you MUST NECESSARILY believe in the "ultimate correctness" of the Bible, because if god would allow "corruption" of His Word, then EVERYTHING could (and probably would) be corrupted.
Even the Bible is about corruption (of God's first rank angel, to make it worse). Guess that's just something that happens.
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So this "picking" of morsels out of the Bible is - in my opinion - the worst kind of thing you can do. It's like listening to a weather forcast, saying, in the morning there will be a thunderstorm, but in the afternoon it will be sunny and dry with 28 degrees, and you are already looking forward to the sunny afternoon, considering sun-bathing, but the thunderstorm you dismiss, because "weather forcasts are known to get it wrong sometimes".
not "picking" and just blindly believing in every word is like listening to a forecast 6000 years old, made by numerous people, most of them anonymous and some of them clearly talking not about the weather but about unrelated things, also where many things are contradictory.
If you consider there is some truth there and some things that shouldn't be there, you just have to use your mind to pick what seems best.
If we consider Jesus a "patch" to the Old Testament, it's much easier. Everything that makes contradictions to Jesus' teachings must go.
That's how I see it.
As for Confucius, Confucianism is a state religion in a few places, even if it's hardly what we understand as "religion". And you're free to follow Confucius if you prefer. I'm happy with Jesus and I don't really mind someone saying what he was saying 500 years earlier. What's the problem?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 23, 2010 12:30 PM |
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That doesn't make sense. It would be FAR FAR more logical to trust in Christ (or God) to have an eye upon HIS WORD, so that it wouldn't be changed, don't you think? I mean, IF God wants His Word to be preached, so that people know of him and so on, IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, that His Word is His Word and not some nonsense a couple of people concocted. Otherwise he never needed to have bothered, right? The Devil might have changed things willingly, for example, by his minions.
Essentialy, this question belongs in the "if God wishes people well, why does he allow XXX or YYY". It has been covered before in this thread, I think.
I don't think so, not at all. Ultimately, if there is no safeguard against the corruption of the message, everything could be corrupted - and if you believe in the existance Satan as well: don't you think that there couldn't be no better way for Satan to (maybe subtly) change the message to suit his needs? Do you think Satan would miss such an obvious opportunity to corrupt humanity?
Tempting people is a different thing altogether - you know the score somehow. But believing to do the right thing and playing into Satan's hands, that would be thing.
So: if you believe at all, you must believe in God "protecting" the message, so that people wouldn't follow the wrong message.
Conversely, if you don't believe that - what would Satan keep from warping and corrupting the message to suit his needs?
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As for Confucius, Confucianism is a state religion in a few places, even if it's hardly what we understand as "religion". And you're free to follow Confucius if you prefer. I'm happy with Jesus and I don't really mind someone saying what he was saying 500 years earlier. What's the problem?
The "problem" is, why giving ANYONE god status just because someone said a couple of clever things? LOTS of people did that, but you don't follow them, and Jesus is by no means original in everything he taught.
So this is just not enough to worship him as a god. To phrase it differently, no one would worship him as a god if he JUST had said a couple of clever things.
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted February 23, 2010 01:37 PM |
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Edited by shyranis at 13:40, 23 Feb 2010.
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Looks like Elodin gave up the ghost?
I have been really busy myself.
____________
Youtube has terminated my account without reason.
Please express why it should be reinstated on
Twitter.
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Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
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posted February 23, 2010 01:40 PM |
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I have three questions for not religious people.
1. Why do you not suscribe to any particular religious group?
2. What exactly do you believe in?
3. If it was discovered that people are getting stamped with the number of the beast and a nine headed dragon appeared wearing crowns and mocking God, how would you react?
4. Is it possible that you are gay?
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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Ichirguboil
Hired Hero
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posted February 23, 2010 02:37 PM |
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Guess those ones are for me considering the fact that I actually have faith in some things, but I can't call my belief system "religion" as long as is unique and I only follow it. Religion and fath makes a big difference in my opinion. So ...
1.'cause there is no religious group which can fulfil my emotional needs and to support my view of life but I won't let my life philosophy down, it made me what I am today.
2.Have mentioned that somwhere above, no need to tell it once again.
3.Mocking the christian God? I don't wanna offend the believers here but I would find that actually quite fun. I have read the Bible and I don't think God is that good guy you consider him. Again, I am telling you, NO OFFENCE here.
4. No, I am not homosexual, but I don't see why should we treat not all the poeple equally and to devide them for their sexuality. In my poin od view there are not that much gays in the world and they are really born with their sexuallity and are not guilty for anything, but there are many people who are pretending they are gays because they want to be interesting and noticable. There are two improtant tasks which one person can achieve in his/her life - he can make a career and so (s)he can help society or (s)he can rise up the new generation. When you try to get the two things most probably both would fail. So if not for something else, gay people can work for society ... 'cause they sexuality is not connected with their brains and they can be smart. The Roman emperor Hadrian was gay but he is one of the greatest rulers the world has ever seen in my opinion. And yeah, he was quite smart guy
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