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khayman
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Underachiever
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posted May 11, 2004 11:41 PM |
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Poll Question:
The Draft
I wanted to begin a thread about a the United States Military Draft. Of course, I had to include a hypothetical situation, along with a poll.
Here is the hypothetical situation: Due to the looking prospect of World War III, the current President of the United States decides to re-institute an involuntary military draft. This means that all mentally and physically qualified individuals of the required age could possibly be involuntarily 'drafted' to serve in the United States armed forces. You meet all of the qualifications, and one fateful morning, you find a letter from the Draft Board in your mailbox requiring you to report for military service. Do you report for duty?
Of course, I am hoping there will also be some discussion about the ethical and legal aspects of re-instating the draft. Also, I would request that those who do not live in the United States would provide their insight on this topic, plus contribute any information regarding their own country's regulations and requirements for involuntary military service. Thank you for participating.
Brief history of the United States Military Draft: "From 1948 until 1973, during both peacetime and periods of conflict, men were drafted to fill vacancies in the armed forces which could not be filled through voluntary means. In 1973, the draft ended and the U.S. converted to an All-Volunteer military."*
*For a more detailed history of the draft, please click on the link below. That is from where I cited the brief history.
usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/bldrafthistory.htm
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted May 11, 2004 11:48 PM |
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I would make attempts to serve in an industry important to the war effort (if I agreed with the motives for the war) but I do not wish to have to fight in the military. If it came to a situation of having to serve in the military I would question the motives for the war. If my country was threatened with invasion, or if something akin to WWII (ie a great near evil) was afoot I would serve. If it was something abroad like Iraq, Korea or Vietnam I would not serve, and find any way possible to avoid it.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Wolfman
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Insomniac
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posted May 11, 2004 11:54 PM |
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Enrolling in college won't work this next time around. It really isn't fair.
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khayman
Promising
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Underachiever
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posted May 11, 2004 11:57 PM |
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Quote:
Enrolling in college won't work this next time around. It really isn't fair.
Wolfman, is that true or is that what you have heard? I know that college was an out for the Vietnam Draft and I thought it was still an option.
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Khaelo
Honorable
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Underwater
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posted May 12, 2004 12:18 AM |
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Edited By: Khaelo on 11 May 2004
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Agreed with Wolfman about college. That really shouldn't be a viable option because it's economic discrimination. Similarly, a re-instituted draft should be gender-blind.
[Edit: Since I don't know how seriously they're talking about a draft, I'm not sure what the rules would be. The college thing was a scandal in Vietnam, though, so wouldn't they eliminate it?]
My criteria for a just war are extremely high, much higher than those of most politicians today. The fact that I have any critiria at all probably excludes me from C.O. status, but for a typical US war, I'd apply anyway. Second would be a (legitimate!) medical exemption. Third...if it were a war like this Iraqi one, I'd take either jail or suicide rather than serve a cause I think is unjust. Running away is not a moral option; once a fair draft nails you, you've got to give your time/life one way or another.
[Edit 2: There hasn't been a draft in the time since the military's charming "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy was adopted regarding gays. Just out of curiosity, if anyone associated with the military happens to know, what happens to individuals caught under that policy? What would be the implications if drafted people were to start popping out of the closet? I happen to think that the policy is problematic unto itself, and that exploiting it in this way would be equivilant to heading for Canada, but some might view it as a convenient loophole...unless it has civilian consequences? And what of those folks happily out of the closet in civilian life who find the draft notice in their mailboxes?]
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Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
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posted May 12, 2004 01:41 AM |
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Lacking any form of patriotism i couldn't choose anything but the last option.
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And now to the next post.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted May 12, 2004 02:10 AM |
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It depends on the war. theres contraversy and a bunch of left and righters everywhere, hence there would be black and white about the whole thing. A bunch of people hahaha saying they know whats right
But I can settle knowing that atleast I feel its right. I could take a machine gun blasting through my face for the cause if I
A: had to
B: was forced to by the situation of the world
C: Knew that the other country are the true hostiles because we offered peace but they rather be lunatics and fight. Generaly speaking, these types of people would rape innocent women, torture the childeren, re adopt slavery into their undeveloped world and they tell them development is evil. Ect.
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What are you up to
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted May 12, 2004 02:16 AM |
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A gender blind draft, it sounds good in theory but for front line troops I think should mostly be men. Not to be discriminating or anything, but most men are physicaly stronger. However, if someone has the mindset of G.I. Jane, I have no problem. Maybe most women would rather have a job in the combat zone that isn't right on the front lines. I personally would rather have a more behind the scenes part.
With the college thing, I would want to be exempt while in college, but it's just not fair. Having college done before worrying about the draft would be great. But for those who can't get into college or be able to afford it, it just isn't fair at all. Plus, when you draft in people from college, you should have some sort of tactical advantage with smarter people, eh? 
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Asmodean
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Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted May 12, 2004 02:41 AM |
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I don't think I could ever be a soldier. I can't stand guns, and hopefully they will never be a part of my life. Maybe I would shoot someone who came into my house to kill my family, but I just don't think I could go to war.
Only those who want to be soldiers should be soldiers in my view. They are a necessary thing, the military is a necessary part of any country, but no-one should be forced to be a part of it.
Plus there's the gay issue - why should I suppress who I am just cos cos there's some homophobic general barking the orders.
If I was drafted I'd have to be a conscientious objector. Or I could just go to the draft officer and flirt with him. Don't think they'd want me after that
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted May 12, 2004 03:07 AM |
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be careful they once thought blacks couldn't serve as an individual unit of course its a different situation. Integration would never happen. The G unit would probably like, clean more often. Cleaning the buildings that E1s and others clean. Standing sentry.. Colors (the flag raise thing) im not sure about the countries popular vote would be critics and unsensible about it.
edit:
:/
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hamsi128
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tosser tavern owner
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posted May 12, 2004 08:33 PM |
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to be soldier or born soldier  ...
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quoting my post = bullet in your head
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 12, 2004 08:55 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 12 May 2004
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Great Personal Significance
Let's start out with some helpful links I've found:
(Gay and Lesbian Draft laws For Israel)
http://www.gaymilitary.ucsb.edu/Publications/IsraelPub3.htm
(American Gay and Lesbian activism towards draft)
http://www.txtriangle.com/archive/1114/topstories.htm
Talk of the draft returning in 2005
http://pub12.ezboard.com/fpoliticalpalacefrm21.showMessage?topicID=217.topic
This particular issue is of great significance to me, obviously, because I have a son and two daughters. Currently Cameron is 5, Kara is 4, and Alicia is 3 months old.
I have just recently turned 29 and I am prior military service. I served in the Airforce for 4.5 years and was discharged honorably. This means I cannot be drafted under any current law in the U.S.
The age requirement is 18-26. In answer to the question about avoiding the draft by going to college, the current law has been modified. I believe the link Khayman gave describes the specifc details of the changes.(by the way Khayman you forgot to put the http:// before your link) The specific changes concerning the college exemption status reflects a certainty of being drafted whether going to college or not. In fact, Those young men who are already in college will be allowed to finish the semester they are in if they are not seniors. Seniors are allowed to complete the entire year before being made to join the military.
Gays, lesbians, and women will not be drafted if one occurs. They are exempt under our current laws. I believe someone brought up proclaiming to be gay to avoid a draft. If this were to occur the individual would be held accountable and must prove that he is in fact of said sexual orientation. In other words, he has to prove that he is gay. If he is found to have lied to avoid the draft then he can be prosecuted and sentenced to all the charges associated with a draft-dodging crime.
Interestingly enough, Israel has no such laws against sexual orientation. Gays and lesbians are sent draft notices just like anyone else. Check out the link I provided above to see more details.
Personally, I have my own feelings concerning this issue. My children might, one day, be involved in a draft time for this country. Because this is a possibility, I am forced to face the reality that my children may end up going to a war they may or may not be supporting. As it currently stands, only my son faces this possibility.
I believe I also read that ex-Pres. Clinton is still pushing for gay/lesbian/women to be eligible for a draft but nothing has been done in congress thus far.
Because my son(or daughter in the distant future) may face this circumstance I am inclined to address the issue with them in private long before they come into the age of eligibility. I am a man who likes to think he has some sort of say in the future of his fate. Because of this I have chosen to advise my children to volunteer for the military as soon as possible. Volunteers have a very good chance of working a job that they might be interested in while draftees will most certainly be sent to the front lines of a battlefield. That's the place the military needs manning when a draft is enforced. They aren't looking for a rocket scientist. They want a grunt and a medic who can patch the grunt up if possible. I would rather my kids take a proactive role in their possible military enrollment. I would rather they find a job in the military that is more suited to their personal interests than see them become a human shield for the wave of troops behind them.
In the worst case scenario, I must come to face the reality that we don't always get what we want in life. It may be true that my kids will be that grunt that was drafted under "objectionable status". If this is the case then I will remind either my son or my daughters of what they fight for. I will remind them that they will be fighting to keep myself, their mother, and our house free of the kinds of people who would burn it, kill me, and rape their mother. If that wasn't enough incentive to be a good soldier then I would remind them of the countless others who've fought and died to keep this country safe from harm. I would ask them to remember the cozy nights we spent together during the Oregon winters in front of our fireplace. I would ask them to remember the hot chocolate their mom made and the blankets I covered them with while we read bedtime stories as they fell asleep. After that I would remind them that freedom is not truly free of cost. I would tell them that without the brave men and women who keep us safe we would never have the possibility for such a good life. Then I would hug them, kiss them, tell them I love them, and send them on their way. As my children leave, there will be no doubt in my mind that they know their parents love them with all of our hearts.
Such is life. I choose to rise to meet the challenges head on with love in my heart and a resolute conscience. I know my son and two daughters would make me proud to be their father.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted May 12, 2004 09:05 PM |
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consider the fog and mere gas masked people running through the streets. You were never recruited, so what do you have and how many people would you take out before the war was one? The "military" and "communications" are down. Even phone lines but not all. You get the point.
I would try to find an organized resistance but not if i was stuck sick in mmy apartmnt with 5 blankets covering my window.
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What are you up to
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted May 12, 2004 09:57 PM |
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I just walked down the street and this middle eastern guy says "sissy" but in the wind like he didnt expect me to stop and get in his face.
Well, I did and almost pushed his skull into the fence cuz he knows not a fkn thing about me and my belifes but he singles me out for a biast remark because I'm white.
If I had 5 more points on the other side I would've gotten on the bus a block down and jumped his face to the curb so I can have a reason to talk to the president.
They will wallow out like little girls in combat here when they get beaten down. -if theres ever a treet war-... But you know they would be little **tches and spray mace everywhere. So tear their head off and take their mask, suit and paint it with their blood. Unless you have your own uniform lol.. no reason to get bloody unless its required to distinguish us from them.
Thats only if they dont use WMDs
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khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted May 13, 2004 02:38 AM |
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Military Policy On Homosexuality
Khaelo wrote:Quote:
There hasn't been a draft in the time since the military's charming "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy was adopted regarding gays. Just out of curiosity, if anyone associated with the military happens to know, what happens to individuals caught under that policy?
Individuals caught under the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy are administratively separated from the military. The Department of Defense has deemed that "homosexuality is incompatible with military service," which has never actually been statistically proven, but that is their justification. Homosecuals do not receive a Bad Conduct discharge if they are caught; rather, they receive an administrative discharge, and more-often-than-not an Honorable Discharge or a General Under Honorable Conditions discharge unless they had infractions during their military service, such as a pattern of misconduct. They only three situations that would involve administrative separation for homosexual conduct would be the following:
1. If the individual made an official statement or declaration that he or she was a homosexual, and this statement was found to be true and not just a ploy to avoid further military service.
2. If the individual was actually caught engaging in a homosexual act.
3. If the individual made a statement to a reliable, responsible source, and a subsequent investigation was able to prove that the individual was a self-admitted homosexual or there was solid evidence that this was indeed true (i.e. a video tape of the individual performing homosexual acts).
The rules, as you can see, leave much room for circumspect and judgment; therefore, it must be proven beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt that the individual is homosexual. On a personal note, it was my duty to enforce these rules and regulations at one time; however, that does not necessarily mean that I agree with the policy. That is just the way the miltary works.Quote:
What would be the implications if drafted people were to start popping out of the closet?
If you are a homosexual and hypothetically receieved a draft notice, most likely you would just have to report and tell them that you were a homosexual or your sexual preference would disqualify you from military service. I would guess one would be required to make an official statement, but I am not sure if that would be a violation of the Privacy Act or an individuals civil rights.
If anyone has any specific questions or situations they would like to ask, please feel free to email me at the address listed here in HC. Sorry, but I am not currently available, so please none of those.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted May 14, 2004 11:26 PM |
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I don’t like the military. I don’t even know why we have a national army. We really don’t need it, when we have Uncle Sam taking care for us. Honestly, I don’t think our army can do anything that is against the will of our American “brothers” and NATO “allies”.
But that doesn’t mean I don’t want to go to military service. I find serving in the army to be an interesting experience for all males of that age. You can meet new friends and the functioning in such testosterone-excited environment is a trial itself. (though it might get a bit loaded late at night; projectiles launching and that sort of stuff )
By the way, military service is compulsory in Macedonia for anyone when they finish high school, but you may prolong that period if you enroll at university. However, like many things here, it functions only on paper, so many lads here manage to get a medical document which deems them “physically unable” to serve in the army. A whole other percent don’t even try to and due to the institutional inertia, nobody even notices it, and much less actually do something about it. The rookie period lasts for six months, and it was only recently that they shortened it from whole nine months! You can choose civil service instead of that; however it lasts much longer and it’s usually a dead dull office work.
Although I’d go in the army (mostly like going on vacation with lots of buddies), I would never participate in war, especially if it’s an invading one. The only condition that would make me hold a gun against somebody, is if that somebody threatens my entire way of life and if it is a matter of life and death or slavery and freedom (like WW2 for instance). But even then, I’m not the type of person that would boldly step in the front lines, to die for honor and pride, for patriotic reasons and that kind of bullsnow. No. I’m more like the stealthy type and I think that much more can be achieved using wits than muscles. I’d much rather be a spy or ideologist than a soldier in a war. You may call me chicken, but I think I’m just being sensible, since what good is what you’ve fought for if you are already dead?
So to cut the crap. I’d probably do anything to avoid participating in the war, unless that war means the bare survival of all the things that I hold dear.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Khaelo
Honorable
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Underwater
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posted May 14, 2004 11:54 PM |
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Thanks, Khayman. That's really informative. I wasn't sure if the discharge is normal or something that would show up unfavorably on the individual's career record.
Personally, I suspect that a draft for an unpopular war would be the single quickest way to get rid of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." There are all sorts of stories circulating about how guys tried to get out of the Vietnam draft; in comparison, getting frisky with someone to whom you're really not attracted seems tame. The administrative nightmare of separating gays, bisexuals, and fakers alone would probably get them rethinking those incompatability issues.  Never mind transsexuals (an otherwise healthy man who just happened to have been born female?).
The whole thing is a mess, though. Why should I, as a bisexual woman, have an easy out while my straight brothers have to worry? As much as it would suck to get drafted, I wish my chances were equal to theirs.
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted May 15, 2004 02:14 AM |
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Quote:
The whole thing is a mess, though. Why should I, as a bisexual woman, have an easy out while my straight brothers have to worry? As much as it would suck to get drafted, I wish my chances were equal to theirs.
Well as liberating as that might be my dear, I think I'd use any option I had to avoid the draft .
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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The_Gootch
Honorable
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Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted May 15, 2004 02:21 PM |
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We know what the rules say Khayman, but you know as well as I do that it isn't merely homosexuality that is incompatible with military service, but male homosexuality.
The rug-munchers get away with everything.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 15, 2004 06:44 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 15 May 2004
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Man....
Why the hell am I so inclined to agree with The_Gootch? I don't like the delivery but I can't ignore the truth. I think he's right.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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