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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 16, 2013 11:40 AM |
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Brain Death and Immature Human Organisms
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"Brain death" is defined by the Uniform Determination of Death Act (UDDA), which has been adopted by most American states, as the "irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem."
Some abortion advocates say a brain dead human organism and an immature human organism are peas in a pod because neither have apparent brain function. But that comparison is ludicrous. A truly brain dead human organism has had an "irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem."
First, as per definition of brain death, the brain dead human organism will never recover. Second, his brain has permanently ceased operation. It is dead.
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“this criterion [of brain death] is perfectly correlated with the permanent cessation of functioning of the organism as whole”
Bernat, J.L., C. Culver, and B. Gert, “On the definition and criterion of death,”
Annals of Internal Medicine
, 94 (1981): 389-394, at 390.
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The very young human organism in the womb is not in a state of "irreversible cessation" of brain activity. Quite the opposite. Its nervous system is not dead but is in a self directed process of being built. The young human organism is building everything it needs to express its rational nature. It very much has a future and its self-directed building to me indicates some level of consciousness/sentience, however immature. The young human organism has not ceased to function as a whole. It is in no way dead.
Allowing the rest of a brain dead human organism's body to die is allowing nature to take its course. Taking the life of a young human organism is murder.
Do I have some concerns about the "brain death" concept? Yes. But that is a subject that should be explored in a different topic. Brain death is actually something I've not read much about recently but my preliminary reading to refresh myself has exposed some things of potential concern that I am in need of delving into.
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Revelation
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 12:05 PM |
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@ Elodin
Simple question:
Why are you so intent on making something your business that is beyond even your theoretical ability to "care for"? In other words, why are you so adamantly caring ABOUT something you have no way caring FOR?
(The only person that CAN care for a fetus up to a certain critical point is the person in whose womb the fetus is, which means, it's HER business, since SHE is by necessity left with the care for it.)
You know that many people have a saying that if you prevent the death of a person, that person and everything he/she does is YOUR responsibility because of that.
So are you prepared to take responsibility for
a) all pregnant women who would want to abort, but don't because of pro-life propaganda?
b) all children that are born due to that?
If not - why don't you just shut the hell up about something that you have no business to make your business?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 16, 2013 12:20 PM |
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We've been through that too, "eventually it will have a brain" is not a valid argument. All this has been already discussed a few days ago. Zenofex put it right; we have more chance explaining things to a random rock.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 01:22 PM |
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@Elodin, ignoring my questions again? I thought you wanted to DISCUSS, not to vent your anger on us. But well, in that case let me not bother anymore.
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Look at the context, isn't it beyond obvious that is sarcasm.
Sarcasm doesn't work with Elodin unless he's making one. 
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 16, 2013 03:10 PM |
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Corribus, I've been making that point since the beginning of this thread - so what makes you think Elodin will agree with it now?
Well, if you hear something enough times, maybe it'll sink in?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 03:28 PM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 16, 2013 03:43 PM |
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Well, if it's meant as a tactic, it sure fails to deliver. So far, I've only seen it pissing people off and turning threads into Elodin this Elodin that garbage. But maybe he likes attention no matter what type.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 16, 2013 03:47 PM |
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Isn't that his tactic?
Touche.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 04:06 PM |
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Yeah, well, I also often don't know while I still bother ... habit?
Anyway, it would seem that he tries to post treatises now or something. Maybe we should also try the effect of fancy headlines as well. Looks impressive, something like:
Humans and their Failures
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 16, 2013 04:22 PM |
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Isn't that his tactic?
Your tactic seems, as always to throw around numerous lies and insults because you appear to be incapable of engaging in any sort of rational discussion.
I agree with points that make sense and that are rational and true. Which explains why you and I don't see eye to eye.
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Revelation
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 04:32 PM |
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You, on the other hand, seem incapable of answering simple questions.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 16, 2013 04:43 PM |
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Quote:
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1) Why are only truly independent organisms worthy of moral consideration?
2) What is the degree of independence needed to be considered a person?
3) Can a living human organism be considered a person, lose enough independence to no longer be a person, and later regain enough independence to once again be a person?.
4) Who gets to decide how much independence is needed in order to be a person and what should be the basis of the decision?
1) Because they are dependending on their mother's life. And she has no choice but to live with it or miscarriage it. So whatever you say about morality, you won't change the fact that if the mother doesn't want her child, she would eventually kill it in more legal or illegal way.
I'm still not sure how you correlate dependence with right to murder. I guess people on the left just have a strange view of morality that I'll never grasp.
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Let me ask you a question: if she wants to kill her baby and we can't do anything about it, should we leave her alone with unsafe methods of miscarriaging or maybe we should legalize something that is definitely more safe and professional?
I don't think we should should try to make sure murderers remain safe and secure while they murder their innocent victims, no.
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2) Fetal viability, as I said before.
So personhood is tied to independence. But as per your answer in #3 it is tied to independence only for young human organisms. Nonsensical.
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3) Assuming that we can't get inside someone's organism as a born child nor adult nor anything, I'm afraid that's impossible.
So, what you are saying is only young human organisms have to be "viable" to be a person. Why is that, exactly?
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Seriously, how obvious is that. It's like you forgot abortion is actually legal in many countries.
So in viewpoint Legal = Moral. So you'd say Hitler's actions were moral because they were legal. Stalin's actions were moral because they were legal. Ect.
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Revelation
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 16, 2013 04:58 PM |
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Moral standard isn't the same in all countries, is it?
So it seems very vague to compare morality with legality.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 16, 2013 05:06 PM |
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Quote:
@ Elodin
Simple question:
Why are you so intent on making something your business that is beyond even your theoretical ability to "care for"? In other words, why are you so adamantly caring ABOUT something you have no way caring FOR?
For a reason that seems to escape you, JJ. Morality.
Morality is why I care about people murdering young human organisms. As a moral being who loves other people I don't think such murders are ok or that I should turn a blind eye to it.
There are pleny of people who are ready and willing to adopt unwanted children. A child being unwanted is not a reason to murder the child.
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You know that many people have a saying that if you prevent the death of a person, that person and everything he/she does is YOUR responsibility because of that.
Yes, there are certainly irrational people out there. Me, I'd say something else. If you say it is ok for a parent to kill their child you are as guilty of murder as they are if they kill their child.
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So are you prepared to take responsibility for
a) all pregnant women who would want to abort, but don't because of pro-life propaganda?
b) all children that are born due to that?
No, who would be so loony as to think I would have the ability to provide for the millions of babies who are murdered via abortion? There are numerous agencies who will help unwed mothers and their children and who will help find a loving home for children who are not wanted by unloving parents.
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If not - why don't you just shut the hell up about something that you have no business to make your business?
As always, you make rather bizare and irrational statements.
This is a forum that we are posting in, a forum for real world discussion. This thread is about discussing abortion. Therefore it is appropriate to discuss abortion in this thread. Are you still following me, JJ?
Therefore, it is appropriate to discuss abortion in the thread. Do you see how a rational person can use information to reach a rational conclusion, JJ? A person does not have to be driven by emotion, they can THINK and make decisions based on rational thought instead.
I'm not even out there picketing in front of abortion clinics, though that would be moral for me to do as well. I'm typing in a forum designed to discuss such issues in a thread I did not create. There is no reason to be upset with me for doing so.
Now, a question for you. If you want everyone else to shut up about abortion why are talking about abortion? Or is it that you can tolerate only one viewpoint---your own?
Or maybe you are in one of those "elite organism" categories that others are not and so you have rights they do not. Sort of how you approach abortion. You define human young as "not a person." Since they are "beneath you" and you are "elite" compared to them it is ok for you to do as you wish to them. They are not "special" like you. Is that it, JJ?
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Revelation
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 16, 2013 05:17 PM |
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We've been through that too, "eventually it will have a brain" is not a valid argument. All this has been already discussed a few days ago. Zenofex put it right; we have more chance explaining things to a random rock.
Yes, because I am a rational person who does not appreciate the sort of irrational dribble you spew in the way of "explaining."
It is, quite simply put, imbecilic to think that human young should be as fully developed as an adult human or not be consider people.
Human young are in the process of maturing. Human young are not small adults.
Human young are human. They have a human nature. Human nature is rational. Human young have a rational nature. They will exhibit that rational nature as they mature, assuming they are not murdered by Mommy or suffer some other tragedy first.
It is immoral to murder the young of our species simply because they are not yet mature members of our species.
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Revelation
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 05:17 PM |
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I'm still not sure how you correlate dependence with right to murder. [...] I don't think we should should try to make sure murderers remain safe and secure while they murder their innocent victims, no.
So there's another question: if a mother wants to kill her unborn baby, but she fails, should police arrest her and take her unborn baby away?
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But as per your answer in #3 it is tied to independence only for young human organisms. [...] So, what you are saying is only young human organisms have to be "viable" to be a person.
How exactly can any born human organism be "unviable"? For me that's completely nonsensical.
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So in viewpoint Legal = Moral.
Actually I didn't say that at all. You asked me about independence in context of abortion, so I said that doctors are those who are responsible for that in most countries where abortion is legal.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 16, 2013 05:41 PM |
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Quote:
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I'm still not sure how you correlate dependence with right to murder. [...] I don't think we should should try to make sure murderers remain safe and secure while they murder their innocent victims, no.
So there's another question: if a mother wants to kill her unborn baby, but she fails, should police arrest her and take her unborn baby away?
They should arrest her, yes but obviously the unborn baby can't be "taken away" until it is born. There are a number of states in the US that now have fetal homicide laws. Perhaps you were unaware of that.
Below is a link related to fetal homicide laws.
Clicky
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But as per your answer in #3 it is tied to independence only for young human organisms. [...] So, what you are saying is only young human organisms have to be "viable" to be a person.
How exactly can any born human organism be "unviable"? For me that's completely nonsensical.
It is only non-nonsensical because your position on abortion is non-nonsensical. But since unlike Artu and JJ you have the 'nads to at least try to answer my questions I'll explain.
You categorize very young humans as non-viable because they have a TEMPORARY and NATURAL need the "life-support" system of their mother.
There are plenty of mature human oragnisms who need life support systems to stay alive.
1) Some humans need kidney dialysis machines to stay alive.
2) Some humans need respirators to stay alive.
3) some humans are paralyzed and need others to feed them, clothe them, and shelter them. Without such support they will die.
4) My mother is in the final stages of Alzheimers disease. She can't talk, feed herself, walk, ect.
5 Infants can't feed, cloth, shelter, or fend for themselves and will die within a couple of days without periodic care.
Are these humans who are not "viable" on their own persons? If yes then why do you say that a young human in the womb who temporarily is temporarily and naturally dependent on his mother is not a person?
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Revelation
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 16, 2013 06:13 PM |
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They should arrest her, yes but obviously the unborn baby can't be "taken away" until it is born.
So she can kill it easily while being arrested. What's the point in being arrested then?
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There are plenty of mature human oragnisms who need life support systems to stay alive.
No one is imposed to take care of them. Volunteers aren't imposed to anything, they help other people because they want to. If one person doesn't want to take care of this person, there's always another one who'd like to do that.
With abortion being illegal mothers are imposed to take care of someone that they don't want. They are imposed to bear children they don't love. That's the difference between abortion and adoption or supporting born lifes. Mothers have no choice but to bear this unloved child OR have an abortion.
I'm not really pro-abortion, I don't think abortion is the best solution, but since I'm not a woman which were pregnant, my opinion can't make the law. That and above is why I think it HAS to be legal.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 16, 2013 08:26 PM |
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We interrupt this program to bring you some news.
Carry on.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 16, 2013 08:56 PM |
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Yeah, most people try to persuade him that logic and facts aren't spawns of Satan but he's unshakable.
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This thread is pages long: 
