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| Thread: Tomb town (with pics) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted July 16, 2004 07:23 PM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 9 Sep 2004
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Tomb town (with pics)
(reposted from the Egypt thread)
I dont usually do this, but since there has been some staleness in the Altar, I thought a refreshment might come in handy, especially for the newer members. I think this is a nice post, and considering all the stuff that gets to be a seperate thread, I warn you not to bash me about reposting this. Even more, I dont think many people read it, so it didn't get enough attention.
Ummm, here goes:
OK, as I promissed. An in-depth analysis of the "Egypt town". Although there are absolutely no chances that this town will be in homm5 (or maybe in none of the following sequels), I want to explain why I think a desert theme town is a viable option for heroes games. I was a little dissappointed because I didn't see a complete well-thought proposal that I like, except the refreshment of creatures that Incubus posted.
Why should there be a Desert town at all?
First of all, I want to point out that it's narrow-minded it to be only a town that would deal with only the Egyptian theme/myhtology. As you know, heroes towns are not based on geography or natioinal myhtologies, but more on philosophy (for reference, you may check out my heroes 3 personality thread), tactics they use, elements, environmental surrounding, dedication to magic or lack of it, devotion to might etc.
Having in mind the rich historical heritage that comes from the Middle East and the enormous period of historical time during which the Middle Eastern civilizations were the dominant (or among the dominant) cultural powers in the world, it is an absolute must that their entire mythological potential has to be included when thinking about this type of town. Several thousand years of the world history practically revolving around the Middle East have awarded us with the huge mythological potential that those cultures created. Persoanlly I think it's often very underestimated from people that are into the fantasy genre (especially Westerners). In fact there are many people that have no idea how many of the medieval/tolkien myth creatures and myths and legends alike have their origins in the desert of Arabia and Northern Africa.
Let me just count them: Egypt, Babylon, Sumer, Akkad, Assyria, the Hittite Empire, Persia, later the Arabian countries and more. It would be a big mistake to ignore these cultures and their role in the world mythology lore, and not include them in the actual game.
The name of the town
Consis proposed interesting names, but they all seemed a bit partial. Pyramid is fine, but imo it can be used for other buildings more appropriately.
The name that I come up with and I don't think anyone proposed it earlier is Tomb. Why Tomb? Tombs were well-protected burial place for ancient rulers. They were big and dominant and were in fact the central part of Middle Eastern architecture. There were even entire towns dedicated to tombs or entire tomb comlexes (Valley of the Kings). That's why I think Tomb would be most appropriate for the "Egypt town" (from now on Tomb). Plus it sounds nice.
And judging from previous heroes editions, the town look on the advanture map would be like the Castle within the town. So, it would be excellent if it looked just like a large lavishly decorated tomb.
The identity of the Tomb
Primarily the Tomb is based on the environment (the desert environment), but having only that to bond the creatures in one is not enough. The element of this town would be the fire, as symbol of the Sun. But fire would not be a representation of its destructive nature (like Chaos), but its creative one. Tomb should worship the Sun, as the ultimate life giver and most powerful elemental diety. This is also in accordance with all the Middle Eastern cultures, on which we base the Tomb.
Even more important - the philosophy. Tomb would be a town that repects tradition, town of the old ways, the mystic and archaic. They are all subdued to a greater power, the power of the Sun, as the ultimate elemental diety. Tomb residents are like a great civilization that flourished long ago, a conservative, civilized, but very religious society, and preservance and worshipping of their cult is the only thing that matters to them. Displaying Tomb on the Good-Evil axis would be somewhere in the Middle, maybe more inclined towards good, since after all the Sun isn't a dark or evil concept.
Having said that, there's only one other important thing to note. I think that Tomb should be devoid of Islamic influences as much as possible (mosques, caliphs, sultans or similar) because of the danger of creating an opposition between the Castle (which is mainly Christian) and the Tomb. Plus, Tomb is more based on the pagan Middle East, rather than the monotheistic.
The buildings and town screen
I'm not into thinking about this so much, since it's kinda useless, but I'll put a few words.
The Castle (and the town's look on the advanture map alike) should look like a large mausoleum, or temple, that would be magnificent in stature and size. Here's a proposal. It's the Temple of Hatshepsut near Thebes.
The Capitol could look like a sultan's palace (similar to Taj Mahal). There would be also other buildings inside (like Pyramids, Mastabas, Obelisks, Tower of Babel, Oasis, Cliffs, Sphynx as a statue guardian, other buildings inspired from famous temple sites). I liked the idea about the Bazaar (like a typical oriental market).
I don't want to propose other special type of buildings since it would all depend on the gameplay, but some sort of movement-boosting building (Oasis) could be suiable.
The Grail. Since the central element of Tomb is the Sun, the Grail simply has to be some buiding (shrine, statue, temple, altar) dedicated to the Sun God. Maybe a magnificent Obelisk of the Sun would do, since obelisks were erected as symbols of the sun rays in the first place.
The town screen is an artist work primarily, so I can just say that it should be a desert in the hottest noon sun. Sunset would not do, cos it wouldn't show the solar energy in its full glow.
The magic
Hmmm, this is an issue that depends almost entirely on the whole magic system, but there can be individual specifications for the Tomb. For instance, I think that Tomb related spells, i.e. spells that the tomb heroes should learn easily should be fire/light connected spells. Also there should be some unique Tomb spells (that either the creatures would cast or the heroes), such as: Desert Storm (area-effect damage spell /mass cursing spell), Ancient Curse (cursing spell), Sun Eclipse (mass blessing spell of Tomb creatures), Sun guidance (reveal area on adventure map), Ancestors Blood (mass blessing spell), Summon Mummies (mummies rise from beneath the earth) etc.
The heroes
The two heroes of the Tomb would be the Prophet (the magic hero) and the Zealot as the might hero.
I'm not absolutely sure about the Zealot, but I can't see a better proposal at the moment. Zealots were Jewish fanatical faction in the Ancient Times that put up a strong military resistance to the Romans somewhere around the time of Christ. They commited suicide instead of surrender to the Romans. Their devotion was unsurpassed for the time. The same devotion for the Sun cult can be applied for the might heroes of the Tomb. Plus, the name is original to the desert area.
The specialties of the Zealot, imho, have to be something connected to movement bonuses, since adjusting to the unhospitable desert terrain is not an easy thing to do.
"Prophet" as name hasn't been exploited so far in the heroes series, so this is where it comes into play. It's related to the Middle East (the Prophet Muhammad, as the father of Islam), and generally the psychic people of this area were known as prophets. Prophets should learn easily the schools that contain the fire/light connected spells.
The creatures
Ah, the moment you've been all waiting for. I know that from all I wrote creatures are most interesting for discussion, so I'll try to give the decent attention, but I'm not gonna give statistics or precise abilities.
First, let me tell you that I'm not in favor of creatures being various giant animals (scarabs, scorpions, snakes, crocodiles, hippopotamus etc), historical titles (pharaoh, priest, robbers), different variations of the same creature (golems, dragons, demons) no matter how many awsome adjectives you add in front of their names. Unless you propse a truly unique creature, I won't like it. Also similar creatures with different names is not something I enjoy much.
Here's a sample of pixelart homm3-style creatures of this town. Note that I wouldnt go for the exact appearance of the creatures as they are on this pic, but read each creature description for details.
Amazon warrior
OK, this might not sound very optimistic, but I do think that this game lacks a hot barbarian girl running around stripped.. sorry striped with leather. 
Seriously though, this may not be the best town for this vile "creature", but I had it in my original town system proposal, so why not post it.
The Amazons shouldn't be in the company of the ugly ogres, and this town needs a basic creature. The historical Amazons were native to the region of Asia Minor, so it kinda fits in the whole Oriental concept. They don't have to be called Amazons however. Maybe Sun Warriors or Sun of a b!tch or something.  Sorry, got carried away a bit.
The Amazons have the possibility to act as shooters, throwing javelins or shooting arrows. Otherwise, they are fragile (low HP) and fast (high speed)
Carpet Warrior
Another basic creature. Men with sabres sitting on a magic carpet and flying around the battlefield. Or they can even be magicians levitating in the air and shooting sun rays or casting other types of spells. The magic carpet was typical for the late period of the entire Middle East. It was mentioned in the Arabian Nights and many other books of the period. Later it was brought in European folklore where it was just as widespread as in the East. The point is, it mustn't be ignored with this type of town, if you want to ramain faithful to the mythological and legendary tradition.
Nomad
A desert warrior riding on his steed, a beautiful white Arabian horse. This is a seperate breed, with distinct features, small size, beautiful looks and amazing speed. The rider could look like a beduin with sabre sword. In fact you all know the nomads from the previous series. Not much to explain here. They were the most common type of Middle Eastern warrior. No heavy armour there or infantry, because of the hot desert sun. This unit is absolutely a must for the Tomb.
Arabian Horses
Done with human creatures. Let's move to mythological ones now.
Mummy
You can't have a Tomb town without mummies. Mummies were the emblamed bodies of various individuals of the highest ranks in the Egyptian society, among which the most prominent were the pharaohs. It was later said that the bodies of the mummies come to life to guard their burial places from robbers, in order to ward off against intruders. Also the legend about the curse of the mummy was created to inflict additional fear in the hearts of many adventurers. Soul or not, the mummy is an undead. It was once dead and now it's not. Therefore - an undead. Some mentioned that undeads should be in the Necropolis only. I can't see a real reason for that, unless we try to follow blindly some perfectionist rule. Mummies are resurrected to guard their burial place, which is the tomb, which is the town of Tomb actually.
I think that it's better to give mummies lower rank in the Tomb army, since mummies imho should be the backbone of the Tomb. They would also have a special ability - some sort of cursing spell, along with the melee attack.
Hawkman
Flying creature with melee attack. These would have the heads, shoulders and wings of a hawk, and the rest of the body would be human. They could also be named Sun Priests or some other name. These are derived from the animal-headed Egyptian gods, more specifically - Ra, the Sun god. We could have many creatures with animal heads and human bodies, but that would be overaboundant. Ra is the most important, and hawkmen were also the most common creatures in mythology, apart from the Egyptian gods, unlike the other model creatures inspired from the Egyptian dieties, which were in fact non-existant. Having an Anubis type creature (head of coyote and body of human), reminds me a lot of the gnoll also, and the other inspired creatures would look odd and stupid (imagine a creature with a crocodile, hippopotamus or lion head and human body). Also hawkman should not resemble much of the Ra depictions, but would be more natural, like this one:
Scorpionman
Scorpions are desert creatures, and they should participate in the Tomb somehow. Not only that, but their natural look is frightening and almost monster-like,although they are not a fantasy creature. The only problem would be that the mare increase of the size is not something I like (as I said before). But having a creature that is a mix of a scorpion and a man (torso and head of man, fangs and lower part of the body- scorpion) would be a perfect solution. Here's an example.
Gigant
Three-headed giants with six arms. I'm sure a more fitting name can be found, but I can't think of any at the moment. Anyway, giagants are inspired from the mythical giant Geryon, who fought with Hercules in one his 12 labours. The mythical Geryon lived in Erithea, which is in Northern Africa, another argument why the gigant would fit the desert theme. The gigant's looks would be exactly like that of Geryon, or very much like Goro (from Mortal Combat) but without the two heads.
Genie
This fella you all know as resident of the Tower/Order, but ever since I first saw him there, i thought it was much inappropriate (he was naked in a surrounding of eternal snow!). Ginies were native to the Middle East and it's time they go back home. Spell-casters, bind to serve the one who has the lamp, that each Genie is captured in, Genies were constant companion in the past heroes series, and I haven't got any new things to say here. And I'm sure you are all familiar with this guy: 
Golem
Another resident of the Tower, that had its origins in the Middle East (Jewish mythology more presicely). Personally I don't think he should go in the Tomb, because Tower is all about animating and control, and he'd be more suitable to stay there, but I thought just mentioning it wouldn't hurt.
Roc
Roc is a huge mythical bird native to the Middle East. It was mentioned in the Arabian Nights and it was said to be capable of lifting grown-up elephants and dvouring them in its nest. Its looks are just like an ordinary bird, but the size is not. Here are two pics of a roc, with the second one offering a more alternative look (that I don't like much, cos it reminds me too much of a dragon)
Sphinx
There were two sphinxes in mythology - the Greek and the Egyptian. The Egyptian shinx was a statue that guarded the large pyramids. It had the head of a man (but sometimes ram or hawk) and the body of a lion. The Greek shinx had the head and breasts of a woman, the body of a lion, and wings of bird. She guarded a pass and devoured travelers until Oedipus answered her riddle and she killed hereself. This would be a powerful flying creature in the Tomb, with certain special abilities. I think the looks should be more like the Greek shinx, though there's not much difference, but the Egyptian shinx was never consdered a creature, so there. Here's a statue of the Greek sphinx.
Phoenix
And finally, the highest level Tomb creature - the one and only - Phoenix. Phoenix was a mythical bird, that died in flames and was reborn from its ashes. It was native to Arabia and ancient Egypt (representation of the Sun), so the Tomb would be the perfect home for this magnificent beast. Special ability - resurrection after it dies.
Phoenixes originally weren't all in flames, but it would add much to his appeal, if he's not just feathers and wings. But I do think heroes3 phoenix was a bit exaggerated with the fire. heroes4 was like a roasted chicken. But lacking a nice-looking pic, I offer heroes3 phoenix and a lovely tattoo on a girl's back.
There. You have my expose of the "Egypt town". I just wanna say that I'm aware that writing this stuff isn't gonna change anything in the minds of the game developers and we probably gonna never see this town in heroes games. But I see this as a proof that the Tomb is indeed a town that deservs its place among the rest of the alignments in this game. So, I don't like hearing people saying "Desert town is not unique enough" or smth, because as you can see from this it is very unique, and that leaves the only reason for not including it to be the programmers chronic laziness.
What do ya think?
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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viking
Known Hero
Rock'n'Roll
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posted July 17, 2004 02:59 AM |
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good idea
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One powerful hero is good, two is better
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted July 19, 2004 08:33 AM |
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Quote:
Why should there be a Desert town at all?
Well I don't have a problem with this. Every town since HOMM3 has had a native terrain, snow for wizards, swamp for chaos etc.
But desert's never had a town of it's own, I think it's time.
After all, one of the things people want about a new HOMM game is new/more towns. There shouldn't be a problem with this concept the way people have divided views on the water town.
The buildings and town screen
We're talking Obelisks and statues here aren't we.
With tents instead of houses in the town screen.
With of course at least one big pyyramid (for the mummies)
The magic
I think if they bring back the elemental magic schools, then perhaps desert heroes should have a reduced chance of learning water magic - after all.
I thought of a nice spell too - Sandstorm, which would lower visibility and Ranged troops would do half damage, can be negated by precision.
The heroes
Prophet I don't have a problem with. It's a blanket term for all of those desert holy men that have that wild eyed-charisma going on for them.
Dunno about Zealot though, since it's awful close to prophet in meaning.
What about Sand-rider.
Or hey - Nomad?
The creatures
Amazon warrior
Not sure, didn't the amazons live on an island? Plus whenever I hear the word it always makes me thing of jungle for some reason.
And the way you describe them makes them seem like HOMM4's centaurs with boobs - maybe they should be in the might town?
Carpet Warrior
This is great, as it fits in nice with the theme, and I can imagine the graphics without seeing the picture posted.
Guy in turban, with scmitar.
Nomad
Well if it's not the hero-type, then where else would it be but the desert town? Enough said.
Mummy
Hmmm - a tough one. Yes it belongs....but it's undead. What about the traditional HOMM morale penalty for mixing live/undead troops?
Though they did it in HOMM4's necropolis.
There would have to be a distinction that ONLY mummies would be free of the morale penalty in tomb town.
Would it be the usual penalty if the mummy was mixed with other alignments as well? Or would it be viewed as a tomb-troop?
Hawkman
Cool, hawkman with a big bullwhip. Does he land and fight? Or would he be like a harpy? Attacking and flying away?
Scorpionman
Well I take it that he would inflict the poison spell, or would he paralyze you like HOMM3's scorpicores?
Gigant
Not sure about this - though every town needs at least one good tank unit, so I suppose this could be the tomb-tank.
Genie
Much more appropriate here than on the snow, though it then begs the question - what about all those genie wizard-heroes? Do they all suddenly migrate to the tomb-town and become prophets?
How would that be explained in the storyline?
Golem
No - keep it in the wizard town. If you want to move it - make an alchemists town.
Roc
This could fit in here well, though what about thunderbirds? Maybe the rocs could have the 'devour' ability that HOMM4's sea-monster's had?
Sphinx
Yep another fitting one, which in my opinion should probably be the tomb-town's top creature.
I'll explain now....
Phoenix
I don't think the phoenix belongs in the desert town. With hawkmen, carpet warriors, rocs and sphinxes that would mean nearly ALL of the troops are flyers.
And although the phoenix became a part of many desert cultures myths, the original myth about the fiery-bird came from China.
Plus the phoenix has been associated with the elven towb in 2 games and seems to be happy there.
Especially since Ubisoft's tree town picture seems to have some kind of bird-like structure, suggesting phoenixes will be there.
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted July 20, 2004 04:46 AM |
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Hey, Asmo, thanx for the nice recap.
Quote:
I think if they bring back the elemental magic schools, then perhaps desert heroes should have a reduced chance of learning water magic - after all.
Absolutely agree.
Quote:
I thought of a nice spell too - Sandstorm, which would lower visibility and Ranged troops would do half damage, can be negated by precision.
Yes, that would be a suitable spell. And since it's Sandstrom, maybe it should be a mass spell, which would make it more useful in situations.
Quote:
Dunno about Zealot though, since it's awful close to prophet in meaning.
What about Sand-rider.
Or hey - Nomad?
Probably it's a matter of taste about "Zealot", but it's not really close to Prophet, and even less it's "awfully" close. I explained what Zealot was, and maybe there's some influence in most people's perception from the homm3 presentation of "Zealots". Anyway, Sand-rider sound fine, though it sounds more like a description of something rather than a hero type. Nomad - hah! Lack of power, plus it's already a creature name.
Creatures
Quote:
Not sure, didn't the amazons live on an island? Plus whenever I hear the word it always makes me thing of jungle for some reason.
They didnt live on island, they lived in Asia Minor. True, not desert, but their outfit (or lack of) fits the desert, dont you think? The name doesnt have to be Amazon Warrior. But sending them among a bunch of lustful barbarians seems too brutal to me. And I'd like to have some pairs of boobs fighting for my cause.
Mummy
"Yes it belongs....but it's undead."
So what? Why is it that all the undead must be reserved only for the Necros? I dont see a reasonable argument for that.
" What about the traditional HOMM morale penalty for mixing live/undead troops?
There would have to be a distinction that ONLY mummies would be free of the morale penalty in tomb town."
OK, that's a nice solution. An army composed of tomb troops entirely should have no morale penalty.
"Would it be the usual penalty if the mummy was mixed with other alignments as well? Or would it be viewed as a tomb-troop?"
Well, since it's undead, when mixed with other alignments it should function as an undead. But, it also depends on the morale system that would be used. I'm in favor of the individual morale system, which means that tomb creatures wouldn't be affected by the mummy's presence even if there are other alignments in their army.
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[Hawkman]Does he land and fight? Or would he be like a harpy? Attacking and flying away?
I dont know. It depends on the gameplay.
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[Genie]Much more appropriate here than on the snow, though it then begs the question - what about all those genie wizard-heroes? Do they all suddenly migrate to the tomb-town and become prophets?
How would that be explained in the storyline?
Hey, the guys managed to kill an entire town and merge it in an unnatural alliance and now the Genies are the problem?!
Yeah, they might migrate, or new ones might arise, or they can also remain and serve as wizards. After all, there are humans serving in all towns. Heck there's even one genie serving as a barbarian, so everything's possible. If I had the storyline task, I'm sure I could make something up.
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[Golem]No - keep it in the wizard town. If you want to move it - make an alchemists town.
OK, I agree with you here. But just figured I might post it as an idea.
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[Roc]This could fit in here well, though what about thunderbirds? Maybe the rocs could have the 'devour' ability that HOMM4's sea-monster's had?
I think Thunderbirds are most suitable in the Order, Tower town, being assosiated with the sky, the divine, wisdom... Kinda like the Titans' pets. Devour ability for Rocs?! I suppose it's possible. Again, it depends on the balance.
Phoenix
"With hawkmen, carpet warriors, rocs and sphinxes that would mean nearly ALL of the troops are flyers."
OK, that might be an advantage for the Tomb. btw, I dont think that's awfully much flyers for a town. I would be more concerned about the archers than the flyers to be honest. Balnce, balance, balance... You can easily shut off the flying ability to one of those if it doesnt suit the game btw.
"And although the phoenix became a part of many desert cultures myths, the original myth about the fiery-bird came from China."
Mmmm, didi it? I think they had a Phoenix in China too (but it was different than the fiery one; just a colourful chicken if you ask me). But the Middle Eastern one was unique, and it was native to the area.
"Plus the phoenix has been associated with the elven towb in 2 games and seems to be happy there."
Yeah, I've always wondered why that's the case. You know, when you ahve no better town to place the Phoenix, you simply have to go for the least bad option, but when you do have the perfect town, i see no point in clinging for the old tradition.
"Especially since Ubisoft's tree town picture seems to have some kind of bird-like structure, suggesting phoenixes will be there."
Poop, buddy! It's a rock.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted July 20, 2004 05:50 AM |
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A realisation of one of the towns from your first thread…
I am glad to see this, because you haven’t really gone into detail about any of the towns you had included originally in you ‘A new revolutionary alignment of towns’ thread. This is not doubt a detailed look at the ‘Desert Town’ of your original thread. That was probably a tentative name, and I think that the ‘Tomb Town’ does well in representing the character and feel of the town. If I remember correctly, in Heroes II there were a couple of ‘tomb – like’ dwellings in the Necromancer Castle, like the Mummy’s pyramid , the skeletons’ excavation, and the Lich Mausoleum. These were incorporated into the more gothic type of the dead – the Vampires, Zombies, and Bone Dragons. From your town description, I would imagine the structures are in much the same vibe as the more Middle-Eastern and Egyptian creatures of the Heroes II Necromancer.
Why should there be a desert town at all?
As you say, the mythology and the history that is part of Middle-Eastern and Egyptian cultures was significant in the world at that time, and should still be considered as a whole civilisation – at least in this game. I myself think that there is great reason for a wholly desert town because elements of it have been incorporated into different towns in the past. Let me compile a list of desert creatures used in the series:
Mummies
Nomads
Rogues
Genies
Rocs
Efreet
Half: Liches
There could be others, but they are the main ones I can think of from the top of my head. Indeed those civilisations you mentioned have ahd easily enough impact in the ancient world and have had sufficient influence on the game to be considered for one town that they can call their own.
There is definitely enough reason to have a more desert oriented town, seeing as there are already other towns that seemed less likely. A couple of these are the Preserve and the Inferno towns.
The name of the town
I agree that the ‘Tomb Town’ is a nice name and also fits in with the Middle Eastern beliefs of great burial chambers for their more important members of society, especially the pharaohs, but even for other people there were tombs, and it can’t be ignored in their culture. The Valley of Kings and the various temples and vaults there can be used as a basis for the art in the towns, as you say later in the post. Though the name isn’t the most important part of the town, I think a nice and applicable name is required to capture the feel and essence of the town, which I think this does relatively well. I really can’t see a more distinguishing feature in the lives of this type of civilisation than their procedures for preparing them for the afterlife. I too would look forwards to the art if they chose to include such a town.
Identity of the Tomb
The Tomb is not the only town based on the environment in the game. There are others which have graced the game, like the Preserve and the Inferno. Unfortunately, only one of them survived. I think the worshipping of the sun is a fair representation of their culture, in Egyptian mythology Amun-Ra is the most powerful deity, with Ra representing the sun. I think the Tomb shouldn’t be entirely neutral, however. Though they worship the sun, there are elements of them to suggest that they could be more evilly inclined, with the Mummy being spirits of the dead, and creatures like Rogues also being inherently mischievous. Then there are creatures like the Phoenix, being the height of righteousness in the Middle Eastern culture.
I’m not sure about leaving out the Islamic influences from the town. That too was no doubt a part of some of the more modern civilisations of Middle East, no? I don’t think opposition should be created between the two. While there is some real life opposition at the moment, this game is only a game, and shouldn’t be compensated for these things. There is no doubt in my mind that some Islamic influences should be included. The Efreet sultan structure in Heroes III’s Inferno town had towers resembling those of Mosques and didn’t create any animosity in my opinion. I think gameplayers will be able to look past the real life comparisons and remember it is only a game. Additionally, I don’t think Islam should have too much of an influence in the town, just as much as is required. True, Islam is a monotheistic religion, and Egyptian isn’t. but when you blend these cultures, you would expect this conflict, and wouldn’t even be noticed by the casual gamer. (Or indeed, an experienced one)
Buildings and the Town Screen
The Temple of Hatshepsut is a perfect representation of the City Hall in the game. It is actually similar in style to the one employed by the Inferno town, if my memory doesn’t betray me. That structure is perfect for a City Hall, but perhaps not a castle. I think perhaps the Hittite Capital of Hattusa would be more suited to the type of castle I would expect to see in the Tomb Town. It was a fortified city with many walls surrounding its main city. Something like this would be typical of Middle Eastern society and would probably assimilate well. The structures you have mentioned would fit perfectly into the town and I think the obelisks are a nice touch. While they are a nice touch, I don’t think an especially ornate obelisk would suffice as the grail. I suggest the Pharos, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, I’m sure you’d be familiar with it.  This would be the perfect grail, in that would also augment the special gift of sailing that these people had, seeing as they were close to the Mediterranean Sea.
The Magic
Tomb related spells could also imply that there are some undead spells involved. If I remember correctly your system included some sharing of spells, and I think the Tomb town would share spells with the Necropolis town. Seeing as the name tomb seems to imply death, and that there are former Necropolis creatures in there such as mummies, I think this would be fair. As for the individual spells, spells influenced by the sun, as you say, summoning, and possibly flying (Flying Carpeters, Rocs, etc.) Solar Eclipse, Sandstorm, and Ancient curse would all do well. Another one I suggest is mirage, which would distract the unit for a turn or some type of distracting effect. Tomb magic should deal with summoning, cursing and direct damage spells. It can be likened to Necromancer magic, with some omissions and additions you and I have mentioned.
The Heroes
The Zealot seems a fair hero. Yes, they were a fanatical party of jews in the time of Jesus trying to overthrow Roman rule. They were basically terrorists, as you say, but they did not provide much resistance against them, and were generally correlated with lunacy. They were zealous in their attempts and always optimistic, therefore named zealots. They seem a very good choice for the might hero. Yes, a movement bonus is applicable to these people.
Likewise, I am also positive about the prophet. But one thing I don’t understand is that you want to stop the construction of Islamic buildings, yet you include the prophet as the magic hero race, which is linked to Muhammad, the first follower of Islam. I am all for including Islamic origins, so this is a good choice in my mind. Prophets were generally more good than evil, so I don’t know how they’d go about casting spells to rise mummies from the dead. Maybe that could depend on their individual personality and history.
The Creatures
Let me just remind you of your previous lineup for the Desert town in the first thread you posted here:
Desert
1. Rogue
2. Flying Carpet
3. Mummy
4. Nomad
5. Giant Scorpion
6. Gigant (three-headed man)
7. Sphinx
8. Genie
9. Argus (giant with 100 eyes)
10. Phoenix
I think you have made substantial improvements from this list, but there are still things I disagree about, and it begins with the first creature.
Amazon Warrior
Actually, you didn’t include this in your original Desert Town, it was the Rogue, as you can see above, which is a much better creature to have in this town in my opinion. You included the Amazon Warrior in the Shadow Town instead, so there is still scope to fulfil you fantasy.
“The historical Amazons were native to the region of Asia Minor”
I’m not sure how this works out, because the name Amazon is obviously derived from the great Amazon river in South America…
Regardless, the rogue just seems to be a better overall fit and would easily feel at home in this town.
Carpet Warrior
An excellent suggestion, there is nothing more to say. Another perfect fit for the Tomb Town. There may be capacity for a spellcaster, seeing as they’d have to have some magical abilities in order to make the carpet fly.
Nomad
Yes, I would expect this creature to make an appearance here. I would expect it to return in much the same vibe in the previous Heroes games. This creature would be the early level speed demon of the town, with the first strike ability again due to its speed.
Mummy
Indeed you cannot have a Tomb Town without Mummies. The mummies portrayal in the tomb town cane either be from Heroes II, III, or IV, but I think the Heroes III portrayal is more characteristic of the Tomb Town, since they are holding a Cobra staff and look more defined that just a person wrapped in bandages. I agree that undeads should not only be in the Necropolis town. While the vast majority should, others should go where they fit best. Seeing as the Tomb Town would be a neighbour of the Necropolis town, I think this is a fair decision. Seeing as the mummy really embodies the Tomb Town, it has every reason to be here. Perhaps the mummy also has the capacity to be a spellcaster. I also agree with the lower rank of the army being mummies, because I imagine great mummy hordes comprising the bulk of the army. The specific growth bonuses should also be focused on the mummies.
Hawkman
I don’t about the hawkman. I haven’t really heard of Hawkmen, but from your description they seem to fit well. However, I would rather go with Anubites since they are more widely known and spoken of, and also serve an Egyptian deity, Osiris, the equivalent of Hades. Anubites continue the theme of the ‘Tomb’ in the town, and would, in my mind, make a more suitable creature. They would also complement the mummies extremely well.
Scorpion Man
There are no problems with this one. While probably not the most well-known mythological creature, it would do well in this town. A slow creature, perhaps with a poison or paralysis effect as Asmodean suggests.
Gigant
Haven’t really heard of this one either, and the fact that you can’t find a picture not many other people have either. Not sure of its origins or anything, perhaps speculation. But there is always an individual creature created by the game developers, like the Megadragon, and the gargantuan, etc, so this one could be in the vibe of one of these more original instead of mythological creatures.
Genie
Again, a perfect creature choice for the Tomb Town, it does fit well with the magical side of the town. Definitely should be affirmed as the town’s foremost spellcaster. To answer Asmodean’s question about what would happen to all the genie heroes in the Wizard town, I don’t think it would be a problem. Seeing as it will be a new land, there would probably be a new storyline. Also, in Heroes II, you may remember that Genies were neutral creatures and the Wizard town was present. There were still genie heroes in the town – Halon and another one who’s name eludes me. I don’t think it would pose to much of a threat to the Genie’s place in the Tomb town.
Golem
Yes, leave the golem in the Wizard town, seeing as they needed to be artificially constructed through alchemy, which is the forte of the Wizard town, not the Tomb Town, to my understanding.
Roc
Yes, the Roc should definitely be here. They are more applicable than the Thunderbirds because the thunderbirds are associated with American – Indian mythology while the Roc is Middle Eastern. That is the primary reason it should be a Roc rather than a Thunderbird.
Sphinx
Another good choice for the town. Although, I’m not sure how its going to be represented in the battlefield and indeed on the adventure map, because it is really only a statue in Egyptian mythology, as you say. Though there is not much difference between the two styles, I think we should try to adapt the Egyptian sphinx to a real creature, otherwise it would not really fit in with the theme that has been conveyed by the rest of the town, which would be a shame. The sphinx should be a more might creature but incorporating its riddle in some way. Perhaps as a statue in the town?
Phoenix
Again, a great choice for the town, and is really no arguing with its position in the town. I would ignore the rumours about the phoenix being in the Preserve town just because of a statue. For now, I feel it fits much better into this town. The perfect phoenix depiction would be that of Heroes II. It was perfect. However, the Heroes V screenshot that we saw was also excellent.
Overall, this is a very admirable development of a town I have always been an advocate of because of its ingenuity and constant spread throughout the Heroes Series. While this idea probably won’t make it to Heroes V, hopefully Ubisoft have already considered this possibility and we see something similar to this great proposal in the next game. Excellent work, Svarog.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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igoraki
Hired Hero
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posted July 20, 2004 04:16 PM |
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i think that vulture may fit better in this town then roc,or maybe have both...rest of it i like,mummies fit,but fit better into death town.
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barbarian
Famous Hero
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posted July 20, 2004 04:58 PM |
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Very nice idea indeed, tomb town looks very cool , cool creatures cool looking buildings, and nice name, tomb town, but i don't really see how come phoenixes come into that town, but all of the other creatures fit well.
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It's optional.
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted July 20, 2004 08:51 PM |
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asmodean:Quote:
Every town since HOMM3 has had a native terrain, snow for wizards, swamp for chaos etc.
But desert's never had a town of it's own, I think it's time.
wasn't desert the native terrain for the barbarians?
svarog:Quote:
And I'd like to have some pairs of boobs fighting for my cause.
unfortunately, amazons only have one boob. the other is cut off to let them use bows better. that's how their name was derived. and they lived in jungle island in diablo2, i don't think this should be taken seriously. other than that, i have heard that they were remnants of matriarchal society, and thus it might not be such a bad idea to put them in barbarian town.
wasn't thunderbird of native american origin?
not only phoenix, but wasn't unicorn rather arabian than druidic? the concept of putting creatures into towns is somewhat intriguing.
hydra:Quote:
I’m not sure how this works out, because the name Amazon is obviously derived from the great Amazon river in South America…
and i always thought that the remains of matriarchal society were found around the amazon river in south america and that's how the river got it's name. isn't the word 'amazon' a lot older than the discovery of america?
i can't understand why people want to put mummy on low levels. wasn't it higher nobles who were mummyfied, the mummies of pharaohs being most well known?
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted July 21, 2004 03:19 PM |
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Quote:
Creatures
Quote:
Not sure, didn't the amazons live on an island? Plus whenever I hear the word it always makes me thing of jungle for some reason.
They didnt live on island, they lived in Asia Minor. True, not desert, but their outfit (or lack of) fits the desert, dont you think? The name doesnt have to be Amazon Warrior. But sending them among a bunch of lustful barbarians seems too brutal to me. And I'd like to have some pairs of boobs fighting for my cause.
bzzt wrong!
amazons lived in thrace, east-side, close but not asia minor... as for their outfit... i think the desert nomads would disagree, they don't wear the robe thingies for fun... and i am not even going to the whole amazon archers + boobs thing
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted July 22, 2004 06:18 AM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 22 Jul 2004
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Hydra,
thank you for your eloquent (as always) analysis.
Quote:
Though they worship the sun, there are elements of them to suggest that they could be more evilly inclined, with the Mummy being spirits of the dead, and creatures like Rogues also being inherently mischievous.
Hmmm, I thought they were more goodily inclined. You know, Sun, shiny happy people…
That was the reason why I left out the rogues, btw. And about the mummies. It is a common understanding that they would belong to the evil axis, since the western culture assosiates everything about death with evil. But it is important to note that back then people found the jurney to the eternal life to be a joyful event. Mummies were the spirits guardian, which would avenge upon those who disturb their resting place. So they would be more conected with tradition, eternity, protection, than evil, I think.
I agree wholeheartedly about the middle eastern islamic influence in the city. I didn’t say it should be neglected, but just be more careful about the portrayal of religions. (it was done good in the castle : no crosses, no god or anything)
Quote:
I suggest the Pharos, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, I’m sure you’d be familiar with it.
Yes, the lighthouse could look nice, but maybe it can be other type of building. Maybe some more mystical object would be cooler as the Grail. Cant think of one right now. BUt yes, Pharos also looks great.
I like your comments and ideas about the magic section. No doubt, having common spells for the Necros and the Tomb would be great, if it was the sharing spell magic system, but even if we are not that specific about the magic system, still there is enough potential for developing all kinds of spells that would be suitable with the Tomb concept. (Like the ones you mentioned for example)
Quote:
Likewise, I am also positive about the prophet. But one thing I don’t understand is that you want to stop the construction of Islamic buildings, yet you include the prophet as the magic hero race, which is linked to Muhammad, the first follower of Islam.
Mmmm, not really. “Prophet” is like a psychic man from the middle East. Muhammed was prophet by chance. The word itself does not have its origin connected to this man. The same way like Atilla was a barbarian by vocation, so too Muhammed was a prophet.
Having said that, I’m not against implementing aspects of the Islamic culture, since it too was part of the Middle Eastern theme. But one should be very careful while doing that. Anyway, the core of the town is still the Ancient Middle Eastern civilization, which has notable differences from the Islamic one.
Quote:
Actually, you didn’t include this in your original Desert Town, it was the Rogue, as you can see above, which is a much better creature to have in this town in my opinion.
Hmm, actually no. Tomb is not a town of evil. It is quite mystical magnificent ancient civilization, lost in the desert mirage for ages past. Now rogue… not really fitting, huh? It’s a creature of malice, robbery and cunningness. The Amazon warrior is just a faithful member of the society they live in, and let’s say, it just happens that they rely on women as the backbone of their culture.
Since, you all jump off to the name Amazon and how the historical Amazons supposedly don’t fit the Tomb, I found another very appropriate picture of how I picture this “creature”. And I repeat: the name doesn’t have to be Amazon.
Quote:
However, I would rather go with Anubites since they are more widely known and spoken of, and also serve an Egyptian deity, Osiris, the equivalent of Hades. Anubites continue the theme of the ‘Tomb’ in the town, and would, in my mind, make a more suitable creature.
Well, those two creatures have a lot of common things. But, Anubites would serve Anubis (not an important god of embalming) and the Hawkmen would serve the Sun God – Ra, the central concept of the town. They fly and are kinda His faithful warriors. Also, the more important reason for me would be that we have the gnolls (which are sort of a hyena-men), while the Anubites would be dog-men or something. Too similar for my taste. At the same time there aren’t bird-like creatures in the game, which are common characters in the fantasy genre.
Gerdash,
Quote:
wasn't desert the native terrain for the barbarians?
No, it was rough actually.
Quote:
unfortunately, amazons only have one boob. the other is cut off to let them use bows better.
Oh, yes. I forgot that fact. But maybe we can pair them up, and I’ll still have my pairs of boobs.
Quote:
wasn't thunderbird of native american origin?
not only phoenix, but wasn't unicorn rather arabian than druidic? the concept of putting creatures into towns is somewhat intriguing.
Yes, but one thing I’m a vocal proponent of is that creatures shouldn’t be grouped according to the geographical location, but the identitiy they have. Unicron was most widespread in Western medieval mythology, although it may have originated in the East. However, the reason he’s put in the Nature town is obvious and justified completely.
Now, the Phoenix may vary, but I don’t think he has the serenity to be there. And in a town dedicated to the Sun, the life and death cycles, the Phoenix is more an imperative than anything else.
And about the thunderbird; I think most suitable would be the Titan/alchemists town. But that’s off topic anyway.
Thanks all for your comments. With this attention I got, I might be motivated to start another one about the Water town or similar.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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barbarian
Famous Hero
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posted July 22, 2004 10:05 PM |
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I would like to see a fire town, that would be so cool, with mogogs, and cerbery, and fire elementals, and phineox, and efreeti sultans and some other fire related monsters.
A town like that would be so cool so do that.
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It's optional.
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Mitzah
Promising
Supreme Hero
of the Horadrim
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posted July 30, 2004 10:16 PM |
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I've been thinking about a desert town since my first year in HoMM3: Mummies that shoot, scarabs, vipers...
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| The HoMM Channel |
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Merry
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 31, 2004 03:12 AM |
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;D
Thx for the report, you took your time for sure. Now, i think that adding castles and creatures is not giving the game more playabilitie; i mean, you dont need a bunch of creatures to make a good game, it can be versatile and have a lot or variations ,like the most played games,with no need of more and more creatures.(take a look of starcraft or counter strike, simple games, and you cannot ask more fun from them).
Restoraion of erathia is the best, the others are just to sell.
Id like to see your opinion. Thx!.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted July 31, 2004 01:19 PM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 31 Jul 2004
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Look, I think that in order for a game to be popular it's essential for it to have a great gameplay. But to be honest, the reason I hooked on Heroes were the variety of towns and creatures, that I'm so freakin interested in. Not that I dont consider gameplay to be important (as a matter of fact I participate in all the gameplay debates we have here), but sometimes towns are just more fun.
And there's an irrational idea I have that Heroes will be perfect only then when it'll have all the creatures that I can think of.
btw, I hope you like better the second model for the "Amazon Warrior".
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Coololle
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 05, 2004 11:08 AM |
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Maybe the roc could have a pickup skill, wich lets the roc pick up and drop off enemies. The enemies would not be allowed to be more in their stack then the rocs, and there should be some size restriction.
Formula for carry length: Movement left / 2
About the "amazons":
Of course the amasons should be in a desert.
About the rouges:
They are NOT evil!!! Rouges are not only thieves but also assasins, etc. And most important: THEY ARE NEUTRAL!! They are hired, so they would obey a good lord as much as they obey a bad lord. If anyone has played Neverwinter Nights you will see a good rouge, fighting evil creatures.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted August 17, 2004 11:21 AM |
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very nice.
Amazon: umm... i guess so. maybe desert warrior or something, but otherwise, a nice choice. change the name, because amazon refers to rainforests.
Carpet Warrior: the best. i loved it in HOMM:I, im sure itd be even better here. good onya
Nomad: nice. works perfectly
Mummy: what can i say? this is the most fitting unit.
Hawkman: umm... either this or the roc. this, in my opinion, because theyre too similar and rocs belong to Stronghold only but otherwise, yep!
Scorpionman: cool. sort of like the Manticore though, itd have to have a few twinges to make it more unique...
Gigant: despite what others say, this is way cool. just imagine it, rising out of the sand!!! very nice.
Genie: no way. im sorry, its too late for the change. genies are a major part of Heroes, and theyre arent the middle eastern ones.
Golem: umm... dunno. you could do better.
Roc: no. rocs for stronghold. not for desert.
Sphinx: very fitting.
Phoenix: sorry, but you can do better than that! there are phoenixes riddled throughout the HOMM series, and they dont suit the most powerful desert unit space well at all.
heres what i think it should be:
Nomad (generally less warlike, whereas amazons are bent on war)
Nile (amazons, desert style. get a better picture, that ones magical, not desert warrior-like)
Carpet Warrior
Mummy
Hawkman
Scorpionomid (i dunno just a name, same creature)
Sphinx
Gigant (i reckon its a pretty cool name, my suggestions are: Heiroglyph/Atronarch/Deity.)
good luck, and great ideas!
heres a nice replacement for the genie:
this is a H3 pic i made (my others are in Library of Enlightenment homemade H3 thread)
Djinni are ancient demons that can be summoned by magicians who know their names and the right incantation, through a pentagon. they can shapeshift and perform powerful magic, and must do the bidding of their current master. they are, however, unloyal and will try and attack their master at the first chance. they are bound by the pentagram, which keeps the magician safe.
shapeshifting would be a complicated matter, but im sure it could work. up to them.
but the desert theme would suit tomb town.
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John says to live above hell.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted August 18, 2004 04:04 AM |
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Thanks TA for that pic. Just one thing first.
Genie and jinni are practically two variations of the same creature. They were spirits in Arabian folklore, often bound to a lamp and obliged to fulfil wishes to the owner of the lamp (in other records other means of control are named).
There was a good genie (the blue one made of air, who actually fulfilled the wishes, and the bad genie (namely the efreet, made of fire) who always tricked their masters by a game of words or something.
So that creature is the same with genie.
Nevertheless, if you are in the mood, you can create the creatures that are not in heroes already from the Tomb town, or slightly modify those that are there, and then put them all in the first post of this thread, as a complete alignment. Just make sure there is a certain degree of uniformity between them, kind of like giving the impression that they belong to the same town. Your work is excellent.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted August 18, 2004 05:21 PM |
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Quote:
Thanks TA for that pic. Just one thing first.
Genie and jinni are practically two variations of the same creature. They were spirits in Arabian folklore, often bound to a lamp and obliged to fulfil wishes to the owner of the lamp (in other records other means of control are named).
There was a good genie (the blue one made of air, who actually fulfilled the wishes, and the bad genie (namely the efreet, made of fire) who always tricked their masters by a game of words or something.
So that creature is the same with genie.
Nevertheless, if you are in the mood, you can create the creatures that are not in heroes already from the Tomb town, or slightly modify those that are there, and then put them all in the first post of this thread, as a complete alignment. Just make sure there is a certain degree of uniformity between them, kind of like giving the impression that they belong to the same town. Your work is excellent.
thanks Svarog.
i disagree about the genie and the djinn being too similar. even if it is, its better than THE SAME.
The genie is a summon spirit from another world, which is summoned by the rubbing of a particular lamp. He is mostly benevolent, and will bow to every wish of his master. With magic, no weapons.
The Djinn is a high ranking demon. He is not always summoned. He usually only needs to be summoned once, then he remains in this world until the master lets him go, or the pentacle is broken. He is always looking for ways to escape, or to harm his master, making him unloyal and in some ways evil. He is at first summoned by saying the Six Words of Direction;
Appare; Mane; Ausculta; Se Dede; Pare; Redi (Appear; Remain; Listen; Submit; Obey; Return)
followed by the Djinns first name. the djinn is a shapeshifter, which in itself is greatly different from the genie or efreet. the djinn attacks with weapons.
The Efreeti (or Afrit) is an evil demon that does not fulfill wishes, or anything like that. He is simply a fire demon who, well, just kills things. with magic and fire, no weapons.
take a look:
Djinn (fixed the pentacle)
Genie
Efreet
i dunno, maybe youre right. nevertheless, ill start making the nice gigant.
EDIT: no. forget the djinn for the tomb town. i reaserched it, and technically genie and djinni are the same thing, even pronounced the same, only details vary. oh well i havent finished the Gigant yet...
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John says to live above hell.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted August 18, 2004 07:08 PM |
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Sounds like a very cool town idea. Maybe now we could move the barbarians to the snow? I always wanted to see that done...
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted August 18, 2004 07:36 PM |
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Barbarians on snow? Reminds me of Interesting Times and the Silver Horde... I like it! 
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Yolk and God bless.
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My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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