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| Thread: Why Turkey should become member of EU. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Defreni
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posted October 23, 2004 11:43 PM |
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Why Turkey should become member of EU.
Well in this time where allmost all things evolve around the upcomming US elections. And many US board members feel that we Europeans stick their noses where they dont belong 
Here is a thread designed to show that it is not just the US government that flip-flops from time to time. We Europeans master that art aswell.
In 1982 when Spain, Portugal and Greece became members of EU, one of the main arguments for allowing them memberships was the fact that it would strengthen the growing democracy in said countries.
All three of them had recently been dictatorships.
Turkey have finally been allowed to apply for membership 2 weeks ago, after having tried to even be considered for membership since 1967. (This is 5 years before Great Britain and Denmark became members). But at the same time Turkey was told that it probably wouldnt become a full member in the next 15 years!
The three main arguments for this is.
1. They are not democratic enough. (Yup you heard me, I will get back to how mind bogingly double standard this is)
2. Turkey is a fairly large country with 70 mill. people, with the free movement of labour, people are afraid that all 70 mill. of them would all move to London, Paris and Copenhagen.
3. Turkeys population is mainly made up of Muslims. Muslims are definetly not part of Europe. (This last contention is historically dubious to say the least, but as Im about to go back to playing "Rome: Total War" I will only go deeper into this question if people are at all interested in this subject)
Well, first of all, the argument about democracy. Turkey is a far more democratic state now, than Spain, Portugal and Greece where when they got accepted. Actually they are probably more democratic than Italy, where all the media is monopolized by one man, Berlusconi which incidently is also head of state.
So if people actually hold this argument to have any substance what so ever, they either have to prove that Spain have become less democratic by becoming a member of EU, or that we actually didnt mean what we said in 1982.
About the free movement of labour. There is serious talk about a clause in Turkeys membership that would suspend that nation from one of the groundpillars in EU. Free movement of labour.
Well guys and gals, one of the main fears in 1982 where that EU at that time would be flooded by people from the Iberian peninsular due to the fact that they where as poor compared to the rest of EU, as Turkey is today.
This didnt happen.
The same fear where sprouted when 10 east european countries where adopted this year. I have just seen 1 pole, out of the 10s of thousand the danish media predicted would flood the danish borders when Poland became meber. And she is married to a dane and have lived here for 20 years.
Turkey have had economic growth in 2 digit numbers for the past 4 years. This is far more impressing than Poland for instance, why would they move?
So what all this boils down to, is the fact that Turkey is a country with an islamic population. This is often time confused in western medias with an Islamic state. Fact of the matter is that Turkey have been a secular state since its conception in 1920 on the ruins of the Ottoman empire.
Well, some might say. Islam just doesnt mix with Christianity. This often times backed up by Huntigtons civilizational analysis.
Well if this is the case, lets throw out Greece as fast as possible, considering they adhere to an orthodox christianity, which is a completely different civilization.
My take on this. Double standards once again.
As an appendage I might ad that when Turkey was told that they finally could apply for membership, but shouldnt expect anything the next 15 years, and that they would be under scrutiny the whole time. Be carefull or 15 might soon become 25. Bulgaria and Rumania where told they could apply aswell. Joining date 2007, if they dont comply with the demands from EU, they might be penalized aswell. They might wait for a whole year more. Yup thats right 2008 is the date set if they dont become democratic enough. Do I need to say double standards once again?
Regards
Defreni
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Consis
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posted October 24, 2004 01:09 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 23 Oct 2004
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I Have A Question:
I did not know the Brittish were members of the E.U.. Is this true? I thought they opted to not become a member.
Turkey http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tu.html
Ethnic groups: Turkish 80%, Kurdish 20% (estimated)
Religions: Muslim 99.8% (mostly Sunni), other 0.2%(mostly Christians and Jews)
Languages: Turkish(official), Kurdish, Arabic, Armenian, Greek
Literacy: total population of age 15 and over that can read and write: 86.5% {male: 94.3% / female: 78.7% (2003 est.)}
The most important industry and largest exporter is textiles and clothing, which is almost entirely in private hands.
GDP per capita, purchasing power parity: $6,700(2003 est.)
Exports partners: Germany 16.3%, UK 8.6%, US 8%, Italy 7.3%, France 5.7%(2003 est.)
Imports partners: Germany 15.3%, Italy 8.3%, Russia 7.3%, France 6%, UK 4.7%, US 4.4%, Switzerland 4.1%(2003 est.)
Military manpower fit for military service/males age 15-49/: 11,965,262(2004 est.)
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Svarog
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted October 24, 2004 03:02 AM |
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Defreni, nice topic. This forum desperately needs more Europeans discussing their own matters.
What can I say, I agree (almost) entirely with your opinion.
What it boils down too, as you said, is the latent hatred/fear towards Islam which prevails in Europe. Which, on a different note, is neither reasonable, nor historically justifiable, and clashes directly with European fundamental principles.
If Europe is what she wants to be, a land where religious preference is unimportant and rests upon the individual (not the state), and if all religion groups are equal and shouldn’t be discriminated, then what we have here is the old snow of Babylon doing her nasty stuff once again.
Aside from that, Islam is an important part of European history and culture also. Today, there are numerous muslim communities within Europe, as well as two other islamic countries waiting for admitance (Bosnia and Albania). Both Spain and the entire Balkan Peninsula have been under Islamic Rule (the Moors and the Ottomans) for several centuries. Denying this heritage, would limit Europe to the Western part only and that’s not the kind of Europe we want, firstly and mostly, the kind of Europe the Europeans want.
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Turkey is a far more democratic state now, than Spain, Portugal and Greece where when they got accepted.
Not only its true, but I could even say: Turkey is more democratic than Greece is now, in this very moment. If someone wants me to expand on this, I will.
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There is serious talk about a clause in Turkeys membership that would suspend that nation from one of the groundpillars in EU.
I’m not sure if you mention this as a solution for European paranoia, or you condemn it. Whichever the case, why should Turkey be exempted from other members’ privileges, provided they do get admitted one day. It’s discrimination based on unfounded fear. Those people who do want to move from Turkey, find ways even now. There are lot of Turkish workers in Germany for example.
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Well if this is the case, lets throw out Greece as fast as possible, considering they adhere to an orthodox christianity, which is a completely different civilization.
Catholicism is also different from Protestantism. So what now? Stupid premise in the first place.
Islam is completely separated from the Turkish state. In fact, the Catholic church has a lot more influence in Italy and Spain, than Islam in Turkey.
And another point you missed to make. The membership of Turkey in EU, I believe, is of greatest importance. Firstly, their excellent geo-strategical position. Turkey is a gateway to the Middle East, and having a stable democratic government there is of primary European interest. Whats more, it could serve as a promoter of democracy and modern society for the Middle East, and undoubtedly would have a positive influence for the region.
PS: yes, consis. UK is in the EU, though not in the Euro-zone.
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Defreni
Promising
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posted October 24, 2004 11:54 AM |
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Hehee Svarog.
You actually managed to cover some of the points I was going to expand on, if this subject had any interest.
And yes, I agree wholeheartedly with what you say. Most people are not even aware that the mixture of Christianity, Islam and Hebraic culture in the Iberian peninsular brought on of the most flourishing cultures in medieval times. Mostly in the southern cities that where under Islamic rule. It was here that most of Aristoteles and Platos work where translated from arab to latin. This made the rennaissance possible and through this the birth of the modern time age.
When the recounquistado was finally over after 500 years of fighting in 1492 (Yup the same year Columbus rediscovered America) there was a widespread progrom carried out towards the Jews in Spain. They fled to the only place in Europe with religious tolerance at that time. The place was the Balkan peninsular and greek cities on the asian coast of the Aegean, the rule was Ottoman and islamic.
Incidently the Ottoman empire was reffered to as the sick man of Europe leading up to the First World War. This is offcourse forgotten now, where the mainstream vigourously argues that Turkey is not part of Europe, and never has been.
An interesting fact is that the Seljeudik homeland (The Seljeudiks where the predecessors of Ottoman) where called Rum. This is a direct reference to Rome, which both the Seljeudiks and the Ottomans saw them selves as heirs to. When Constantinople fell in 1453 to the Ottomans, the Ottoman Sultan actually send a letter to the Pope in Rome asking for verification that now the Ottoman empire was the legitimate heir to the Roman empire.
The Pope answered by calling for new crusades against the Ottoman empire. This had nothing to do with the fact that Ottoman where islamic, but more with the internal powerstruggles going on in central Europe.
The Pope used the Ottoman Empire as the great threat to Christianity, thereby trying to to sustain his religious sovereignity over the Catholic church. A move that didnt succed, as the split into Catholicism and Protestantism was effectuated 70 years later.
But one thing it did succed in was to paint the Turks as the great enemy. To the point that the words "Be nice, or the Turks will come and get you" where still in use towards small children in Denmark in the 1950ies. (When I initially talked about this subject with my very historically inclined father, his only point towards a Turkish membership in EU was: "I remember 1453").
Talk about massive propaganda, with very little basis in History.
My crusade is offcourse to show that Turkey have a place in EU, and that Turkish history is as much part of European history as French, English, danish and Serbian history.
Offcourse the direct economical and geo-strategical benefits of a Turkey membership, havent been touched upon in my post. This is mainly due to the fact that its not even part of the public debate here in Europe. To quote a Metallica song "Sad, but true".
Regards
Defreni
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ratmonky
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Abu Hur Ibn Rashka
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posted October 24, 2004 06:55 PM |
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A nation that has commited a genocide and still denies that fact SHOULD NOT become a member of EU. Turkey should recognize Armenian genocide and solve the Armenian Question before considering his membership to EU.
This is the official position of Armenia and it is supported by the government of France.
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2004 07:56 PM |
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Quote:
A nation that has commited a genocide and still denies that fact SHOULD NOT become a member of EU. Turkey should recognize Armenian genocide and solve the Armenian Question before considering his membership to EU.
This is the official position of Armenia and it is supported by the government of France.
I know that it is a major difficulty regarding the 1920 genocide of Armenians towards Turkey. But it is a common fact in all modern nation states that at some point the nation was defined through a single majority. And all minorities where persecuted because of that.
France shouldnt be the first tp throw the stone, when they themselves havent recognised officially the genocide commited against the Berbs in Algeria in the 1960ies. This is after all 40 later than 1920.
A more pressing problem for Turkey is the Kurdish minority which up untill very recently where mass persecuted by the Turkish state. Today most Kurds living in Turkey pray that Turkey becomes a member in EU. This will insure them against future persecution.
Regarding France attitude towards a Turkish membership. Its all about internal politics. At the last poll 85 % of the voters in France was opposed to Turkish membership, so its very handy to blame the lack of support on something that happened 80 years ago. Incidently a thing most members of EU also are guilty off at one point or another.
Yes, even my own country Denmark have done it. The german minority in 1864 can testify to that, eventhough our history writing puts that in under German aggression under Bismarck. Unfortunatly this has been accepted in the light off the 2 world wars.
Not mention our oppression of the indigenous Greenlanders.
Swedes have done it to the Laps and Finns.
England to the Catholic minorities in Scotland and Ireland.
Spain to the Bask minority, this happened during Francos reign, and if you dig a little deeper, which Ive allready written the Jews and Muslims.
France, the protestant minority known as Huguenots, aswell as more recently the Berbs in Algeria, and just 10 years ago the government of France supported the Hutus who killed 900.000 Tutsies in Rwanda. Some of them directly in front of french soldiers who had strict orders not to interfere.
My point is: "Let him who is innocent, throw the first rock".
Oh allmost forgot Armenia in all this. Historically christian rulers off Armenia have at different times persecuted Jews and Muslims. Need I mention Nagorno-Karabakh?
So if this is one off the criterias for membership in EU, this would be a very small community comprising of Luxembourg.
Oh wait, Luxembourg have also persecuted protestants, so hmmmmm. Well nobody actually.
Regards
Defreni
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Consis
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posted October 24, 2004 09:27 PM |
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A Quick Note:
Speaking about Armenia in relation to Turkey, I see no real impact on any of Turkey's national issues. I think Armenia has one of the highest impoverished populations in the world sitting at about half of its entire citizenry. At the moment, I don't know of any other country in the world with a 50% population below poverty. That's very high.
Also, they barely have a sizeable population to begin with. We're talking about maybe 3 million people total. That's roughly the size of a moderate populace city in Turkey.
And to ignorantly compound their already dire economic situation, the Armenian/Turkish border is closed. I think Turkey considers Armenia nothing more than a nuisance. Armenia seems to be on a path to economic self-destruction.
Speaking of Turkey,
It would seem to me that this is, has been, and always will be the gateway country that bridges islam and christianity. It is a majority muslim country but shows many signs of tolerance and willingness to progress as a sovereign nation.
We americans even have a military base in Turkey, Insurlik is the name I think. Turkey will always hold this base under their own ultimate authority, and rightly so. We can't use it whenever we want but Turkey has been very generous with past relations.
I would be very curious to hear what hamsi128 has to say about muslim/christian relations in his country.
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Svarog
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted October 26, 2004 02:58 AM |
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It's a sad fact that Turkey still havent admitted of the atrocity. But I think if they are pressed a bit with the EU membership (that be the only ramaining obligation before they join), they'll be happy to apologize.
But what bothers me is what Dafreni said. If even some of EU member states still havent recognized their fascistoid mistakes, why should Turkey do that? Morally they should all do that, but as it appears, Turkey could comfortably enter the club of slaughterers without saying a word and feel like home.
(Though beside the French denial about Algeria, I dont know of any other. Someone could enlighten me perhaps)
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At the moment, I don't know of any other country in the world with a 50% population below poverty.
See, thats just too bad Consis, cause at the moment more than 50% of world's countries have populations with 50% or more below poverty line.
However, what's the connection between this topic and the Armeanian economic situation? 
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We americans even have a military base in Turkey, Insurlik is the name I think. Turkey will always hold this base under their own ultimate authority, and rightly so.
 he. Sometimes I wonder if you really believe these things you write.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Consis
Honorable
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Of Ruby
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posted October 26, 2004 04:08 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 25 Oct 2004
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Svarog,
When Turkey denied us access to use their base to invade Afghanistan, we calmly and politely agreed to their terms because we respect their sovereignty. Therefore we looked a bit to the north and slightly more to the east and we found a more suitable location to launch our attack from. I believe whole-heartedly in what I say, thank you very much. And I'll kindly thank you to remember that for future reference my fine young 'comrade'.
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doomnezeu
Supreme Hero
Miaumiaumiau
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posted October 26, 2004 07:55 AM |
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I have but only one question:
What hapened with that debate where it was a problem for turkey to join UE because it was part of Europe, part of Asia?
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angelito
Honorable
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proud father of a princess
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posted October 26, 2004 10:22 AM |
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Quote:
I did not know the Brittish were members of the E.U.. Is this true? I thought they opted to not become a member.
Great Britain is member of the EU, but denied to have the EURO as their currency....so they still have their english pound..
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ratmonky
Famous Hero
Abu Hur Ibn Rashka
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posted October 26, 2004 06:07 PM |
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Quote:
Speaking about Armenia in relation to Turkey, I see no real impact on any of Turkey's national issues. I think Armenia has one of the highest impoverished populations in the world sitting at about half of its entire citizenry. At the moment, I don't know of any other country in the world with a 50% population below poverty. That's very high.
Also, they barely have a sizeable population to begin with. We're talking about maybe 3 million people total. That's roughly the size of a moderate populace city in Turkey.
And to ignorantly compound their already dire economic situation, the Armenian/Turkish border is closed. I think Turkey considers Armenia nothing more than a nuisance. Armenia seems to be on a path to economic self-destruction.
consis a lot of incorrect information in here
1. population living below poverty level is 30%, while 50% live slightly above this line. you don't know any other poor country in the world? that's too starnge what about most of africa and asia? in fact armenia occupies an intermediate position in the list of the world countries, so we are definitely not the poorest.
2. the actual population of armenia is even lower that 3 million (2.5 is more correct i think). but do not forget that there are over 4 million armenians living outside armenia (mostly in the U.S. and Russia)
3. azeri/armenian border is closed too. russian/georgian border was closed about a month ago which had a very negative influence on the economy of Armenia
4. armenia on the path of economic self-destruction! lol, the funniest thing i've ever heard! the GNP percentage growth is pretty high, armenia is flooded with foreign investments and living standards are improving pretty fast
5. Armenia a nuisance!!! SURPRISE!!! Armenia has been a nuisance for the rest of the world for the last 2000 years. Just read the history of Armenia and try to get used to it.
6. and last but not the least, if a country is small it doesn't necessarily mean that it is unimportant. in fact Armenia has had a large share of contribution to world culture and noone can deny that
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 27, 2004 10:50 AM |
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Quote:
I have but only one question:
What hapened with that debate where it was a problem for turkey to join UE because it was part of Europe, part of Asia?
This is a very good question, which I in hindsight can see I didnt adress properly in my previous posts.
My take on this argument is, that it is just a cloaked form of the "We dont want Turkey in EU because they are muslim. We are just to politically correct to say that outright."
Historically Turkey, in the guise of the Ottoman Empire, have always turned towards Europe, I have allready given a few examples of this. To deny Turkey a place in Europe from a geographically arbitrary line is just plain nonsense.
The idea that the Bospurus strait is the dividing line between Europe and Asia, is a relatively new feature, not even 500 years old. At the same time you can see how the eastern frontier of Europe has been moved in the last couple of hundred years to finally settle around 1850 on the Ural mountains.
Perhaps it is time once again to take a fresh look at what constitutes Europe. Because geographically Europe is just a peninsular (You might even call it an appendage) to the Asian continent.
We have just admitted the greek part of Cyprus to EU. Eventhough Cyprus if you go by the Bospurus line as a demarcation line, is clearly located in Asia.
Incidently the Cypriots voted to see wether there where popular support to a reunification of the 2 halves. It was clearly in EUs best interest to have such a reunification, but the greek majority voted against it, by 80 %. The same percentage of the Turk minority voted in support. They wanted reunification because it would mean that they would become members of EU.
The Greek part of Cyprus should be glad I dont have a deciding say in EU matters, because I would have thrown them out on their hands and knees. Spoiled kids.
Well to round this off with something more positive.
I would like to remind you all what we have gotten from the "Asian" part of Turkey.
Starting with the first true philosophers, known as the Pre-socratics. All of them came from greek city-states located in Asia Minor.
Troja was located on the asian side of the Bospurus strait, and if you believe Vergils "Aenid" Rome was founded by refugees from Troja lead by Aenus.
The Christian religion had its strongest support in asia minor and North-Africa up untill the 6. century AC. When it became state religion in the Roman empire it happened at the same time the Roman capital was moved from Rome, to Constantinopel, later Byzans, today known as Istanbul.
Nothing to do with Turkey, but the best known of the 4 Church-fathers St. Augustin (Best known for his "Meditations" and "The city of God") was a bishop in modern day Tunisia.
The first 2 Church conventions where held in Nicea, which is located in modern day Anatolia. It was here the question about the churchs official stand on the Holy Trinity was defined. This meant that alot of "Christians" where suddenly heretics. The largest groups where Gnostics and Manichaerist.
These groups still flourished up till the 13. century, where the Manichaerist where finally killed off, in a literal sence in the Albigensian Crusades. These crusades took place in modern day Provence in France.
Its also possible to see how the modern Turkish state is a secular state. Something which is genuinely european. Compare this to Turkeys asian neighbours, and you can see that Turkey has alot more in common with Europe than with Asia. Despite the fact that religiously speaking they are the same as their asian neighbours.
Regarding the Armenian genocide in 1920. Yes, it would suit the Turkish state to apologise for that. Aswell as it would suit Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia to apologise to Turkey, for the mass persecution of Turks at the same time. Greece actually went as far as invading Turkey in 1920, hoping to become the succesor to The Ottoman Empire. I think that once Turkey is a part of EU (Hopefully sooner than later) They will apologise because the reasons for these attrocities (Namely nation-building) will cease to exist.
Regards
Defreni
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zonekill
Adventuring Hero
Wiedzmin
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posted October 27, 2004 05:45 PM |
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How about Jamajka.
Thery are many reasons why Turkey join EU and many, mayby more why shouln't.
It should because:
Someday I think the human race will reach the point, when every man can live and prosper, when money, food, education is no problem (I'm a Star Trek fan, you know ). Mayby it'll take 100 years, mayby 300. I don't know. One of the effects, reasons of joining EU or any other Union is to equalize the living standards.
I see what's happening now in Poland. Investments that couldn't start for years (infrastucture - first o all speedways) finaly started. Plenty of them.
Farmers, the social group that were shouting loud against EU acess - now they're quietly sitting home and are counting the donation they got from EU.
Poles wich were know for they great emigration skills have the chance to build up they own country and someday, much faster now, reach the living standards of other "old" EU countries.
The Turkish is also an emigration nation, I think many of them would prefer to stay home then to move abroad.
It sounds like it is all about money. Sure it is.
EU sccesc by Turkey would of corse also strenghten the democracy. Example: again Poland. The politicians, that did what they wanted to do, they know now, that a great number of politicians and clerks are watching them, caring about the goals the money is allocated in. The law had to be changed and mayby finally someone will care about it (I'm sure it will).
What seems to be a great problem to me is Kurdistan. It's a big nation and someday they'll have they own country. It will happen. I don't see Turkish dealing with that problem, it doesn't even exist for them.
I'd like to write more, but I have to leave the office now.
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Svarog
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posted October 28, 2004 12:34 AM |
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Quote:
Aswell as it would suit Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia to apologise to Turkey, for the mass persecution of Turks at the same time.
Which persecutions?
The Lausanne treaty for population exchange between Greece and Turkey (1923) was done at the expense and guilt of both parties. It's incomparible with the Armenian genocide, which puts the blame by large solely on the Turkish side.
Question to ratmonky: How many Armenians are thought to have died in the atrocity?
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted October 28, 2004 11:41 AM |
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I think that either the nominated candidate for the seat of Agricultural Commissionar in the new proposed EU Commission, a Danish woman called Fischer-Boel, or the previous Commissionar, said that she/he opposed Turkeys membership in the EU because the costs of implementing Turkeys agriculture into the Union, would be more than the costs of doing the same to all the 10 new members combined...
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- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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alex224
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 28, 2004 01:07 PM |
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I have somethings to say about this topic. I thing the writer of this topic didnt reach the sole of this problem.
First of all how democratic is a country which has military in another country (Cyprus) and as a fact it is as they have conquest a part of Europe.
Anyway this is not the important part. As we all know Turkey is manipulated by the United states. So if Turkey gets in apart from UK and Spain there will be another strong US ally in the EU. Since the new EU constitution will say that countries with higher populations will have more members in the EU parliament. So Turkey will be second after Germany and soon first.
As a fact EU will be controlled by the USA and that would be disasterous for humanity. You saw what happened when USSR fell from its status.
FInally imagin 70 million turks who bearly know how to read go to each one of your European countries.
I dont think that religion should be concidered but anyway orthodox is not so different from catholics. They are both christians. On the other hand muslims are much different.
I thing you should thing about it better like the french did who in a poll they answered that 75% do not want Turkey in EU.
Also THe dutch who are friends with turkey said that we should wait another 2 years.
I really hope that greece or cyprus do not go against turkey so that the rest of europe will have to face this danger that is called turkey.
Someone who cares for the European future.
P.S Im not Greek by the way and I do not hate Turks. Im just someone who tries to think beyond the lies that US And British media are feeding people. See what will happen in the future my friends. Dont think so narrow minded.
Remember everything in this world is about power and not about right or wrong
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alex
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 28, 2004 01:21 PM |
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I strongly agree with alex224
And to those who say about the democracy in Greece.
Democracy was founded in Athens and when Greeks were building Parthenons you were still monkeys in the jungle.
Turks were one of the most brutal and bloodthirsty nations that ever lived.
unfortunately my friends noone can alter history. Everyone Knows what happened.
A small history lesson.
Turks conquered Greece from 1453 until 1829. During that time they used to kidnap some of the newborn greek infants and they raised them like turks and then forced them in a group whose sole mission was to kill Greeks. Anyway even then the greeks managed to defeat by themselves the great Othoman empire.
Later in the second world war Winston Churchill was forced to say that GREEKS DO NOT FIGHT LIKE HEROES BUT HEROES FIGHT LIKE GREEKS.
A Greek friend
P.S. The greek spirit is so strong that it will never die. This was recently seen in the football stadiums of Portugal. Tell me who believed that Any week country could something like that.
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Consis
Honorable
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posted October 28, 2004 03:26 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 28 Oct 2004
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Slight Inquiry
Quote:
As we all know Turkey is manipulated by the United states
We all know this? I seem to have forgotten this part part of common knowledge. Perhaps you could refresh my memory. Any proof of this? When I last checked(yesterday), Turkey was being manipulated by no one.
Methinks that your definition of everyone translates to you.
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ratmonky
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Abu Hur Ibn Rashka
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posted October 28, 2004 05:40 PM |
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Question to ratmonky: How many Armenians are thought to have died in the atrocity?
there are different numbers. before WWI there were about 4 million armenians living in Western Armenia and Armenia Minor (a.k.a. Cilicia). During war Russian Czarist Army managed to help some of them escape to Eastern Armenia (a.k.a. Republic of Armenia). About 1.5 people were massacred, the rest fled for Middle East, Europe and the United States. at the same time there were massacres against greeks, assyrians, other christian nations living in Turkey and arabs. the massacres were done mostly by turkish army and kurdish mobs
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