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| Thread: Earthquake! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 29, 2004 03:58 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 29 Dec 2004
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My Slight Error
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Off Topic: If you consider the Italian penninsula an empire, then have the history your way. Your comment here simply struck me as placing Archimedes in the Roman empire by implication, which IMHO is too late (not to mention odd, hence the "Greek" note). Time of Roman expansion, will that do? In any case, Archimedes is a minor point to the current topic.
My mistake. I should have stated more clearly: "During the time of the Roman Republic." I apologize.
My whole point for bringing Archimedes and his time of living into this discussion was because these were times of great famine, disease, and poverty as we similarly see in these Indonesian lands affected by this catastrophe. But even amid such poverty, commonly ill-conceived philosophies, and inadequate medical care(if any), we do still see a brilliant mind such as Archimedes looking to improve upon his surroundings. And not only did his inventions affect him but the rest of the known world also. This is the kind of philosophy that I believe we must all seek to learn from. It is through this sort of wisdom that we can learn to better help ourselves and each other. I'm not suggesting we could stop natural disasters, no, but I am suggesting that these people living in such conditions are as capable as Archimedes to look for a more informed state of awareness to our surrounding environments. Good means of communication can literally save the lives of thousands of people! This technology is not expensive nor is it complicated! I could travel to this part of the world myself and teach them how to do it! Am I any sort of smart or scientific mind? Not even close! In fact I'm probably below average! I graduated number 300 and something in a class of 600 or so in my highschool. Not college but highschool! That's the only official education I possess. Now tell me these people are incapable of learning what I've learned and I'll simply shake my head and look away with complete disagreement.
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how far up on the priority list should financially-strapped nations bordering the Indian Ocean put the eventuality of widespread tsunamis? Shouldn't the people dying now of cholera, etc. provoke more interest and motivation than the people who may die later if a giant wave sweeps them out to sea?
Not how far above or below other such threats. I say put an equal emphasis on them. Cholera is indeed quite deadly and probably kills more people over a period of years than a single tsunami ever could but still the science for disaster prevention is equally important in my opinion.
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If you think that Third World countries should take more responsibility for their poverty, there may be something to that.
I do indeed.
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I just don't see a disaster as nature-driven as tsunamis to be a solid platform for that particular position. I don't understand how one can blame them for neglecting this particular hazard, but that is what I see you doing in your posts. Perhaps my reading of your intention is mistaken?
No mistake. You are correct. I see human beings as wholly arrogant and generally unwilling to take the time to learn more about life-saving-science. Many people do but as we see in Thailand, Sri Lanka, and Sumatra, not enough. There is still much work yet to be done.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 29, 2004 04:20 PM |
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On the subject of stinginess... Although what is spent on a useless war like Iraq makes the humanitarian aid here seem quite puny by comparison, I don't quite agree with those people who complain about stinginess. They may be the same ones who dislike the whole economic model that produces such excess that allows a surplus that can be used as aid in the first place. Lets not forget that each country also donates quite a bit privately as well through the Red Cross and other orgs. I believe the world will come through in a big way in the final analysis. These disasters have a way of bringing out the best in people.
Each day we are discovering how much bigger this was then it first seemed. Now, the death toll seems well over 100,000. Then, the appropriate response has to grow with the new information, as I believe it will. Such things can't be prevented or even predicted with enough warning time to allow complete loss of life. However, I did read that Japan was going to expand its warning system to all of Asia.
Personally, I made a donation to the Red Cross. It wouldn't take but a few dollars from millions of people to create a huge fund of relief money. Donate now!
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 29, 2004 05:18 PM |
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U.N. World Food Programme
 http://www.wfp.org/
$5.00 doesn't seem like too much to send does it? If we all donated such a seemingly small amount then even more peoples' lives could be saved.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted December 29, 2004 07:17 PM |
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Another Interloper enters...
Hey there all! Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays and all!
Consis, you apparently know much about Archimedes. How much do you know about Third-World development and the historical reasons behind the disparities between countries?
To be fair here, we're talking about several nations, each with its own unique geography, resources and history. But most of them have had a struggle to integrate into the global economic system.
To have a technological infrastucture, there must be the more basic elements of infrastructure to support it. To say that it's all somebody else's fault because they're a Third-World nation is to oversimplify the entire history of global development. The United States and European countries began the Enlightenment, Scientific Revolution and Industrialization processes well before many of the countries we're talking about. It has taken us a thousand years to get to the top.
While other cultures may have had other trajectories, it is our predominant one that is winning out. That doesn't mean that if other cultures had had the greatest access to ports, resources and global influence, their various directions of development might not have ended up being the predominant ones. Ours is just winning out because we have the world economy by the huevos and are willing to exert more influence in spreading our system.
It's easy to take a snapshot of any given situation and then simply blame the underdog when he gets hurt. But understanding the entire history of how that situation came to be is always necessary before a sound judgment of the situation can be passed.
Also, it is my understanding that such an occurrence in the Indian Ocean was not foreseen and was not being monitored even by the technological giants of the planet. I also understand that within these few days the necessary monitoring systems have been put in place.
Saying this is all the fault of the affected nations because they were unprepared is a little like saying 9/11 was all our fault because we were unprepared. While there may be some truth in both statements, the fact is that chaos and tragedies happen, to all of us. The best thing is to band together and lend our support to one another to avoid further tragedy growing out of it. There are little babies over there, little babies just like ours, who are now orphaned and/or faced with dying of starvation, cholera or any number of other related ailments. Well over a million people were rendered homeless within the space of a few hours. We can blame it on the Second- and Third-World status of their mother nations, or we can step in and help them out.
Does that make any sense?
<EDIT>
Oh dear -- three entries while I was posting! Consis, in case you were wondering, my post was primarily in response to your last post on the previous page, but I think it's still relevant.
Also, my husband and I were just discussing last night (and Wolf as well) how if every adult American donated $5.00 we could easily end up chucking a billion dollars to this horrible mess. (VERY same thinking as Consis here) Now THAT's a donation. We did one to the Red Cross site last night.
Here's the site:
http://www.redcross.org/donate/donate.html
Choose DONATE ONLINE, then go to the DONATE NOW bar (orange bar at the left side) and choose "International Response Fund." They'll take five dollars. Spread the word through your e-mail networks as well.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted December 29, 2004 11:27 PM |
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Follow-up on Tsunami relief -- What You Can Do
Okay all. This is an e-mail I just generated and sent to over forty people in my address book.
I strongly urge all of you to copy/paste it into an e-mail of your own to send to as many people as you can:
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Hello family and friends --
This is hopefully the beginning of a mass movement to get help to those who are in desperate and sudden need on the other side of the globe as a result of the recent earthquake and resulting tsunamis, which killed possibly over a hundred thousand people and left over a million homeless in several nations. This was truly a shocking, devastating event.
If every adult in the United States alone donated only five dollars, we could provide over a billion dollars in disaster relief. Ten dollars a piece would double that amount. This would help stave off the lasting wave of devastation our neighbors are going to face as disease, famine, economic devastation and homelessness continue to plague them into the indefinite future.
Below I have provided two websites that make the donation process quick and painless. If each of us makes a contribution and forwards this e-mail to only a few individuals, we could keep the wave of assistance moving throughout our society.
http://www.redcross.org/donate/donate.html
http://www.wfp.org/
Please, please take the time to consider doing this, and be as generous as you can. Remember the orphans, and all the others who have been left with nothing but their tears.
Thanks to you all for reading this.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted December 30, 2004 01:07 AM |
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Technology: What sets us apart from animals???
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(Technology]...In my opinion, it is that which seperates man from beast....
Thought this thread group might find the following to be very interesting...
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Disaster Mystery: No Dead Animals
Lankan wildlife officials stunned by lack of carcasses
December 29, 2004
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
As the human death toll from Sunday's earthquake and subsequent tsunami continues to skyrocket in Asia, a mystery is unfolding in Sri Lanka.
Somehow, the animals survived the disaster.
According to reports out of Colombo, Sri Lankan wildlife officials are said to be stunned.
"The strange thing is we haven't recorded any dead animals," H.D. Ratnayake, deputy director of the national Wildlife Department, told Reuters. "No elephants are dead, not even a dead hare or rabbit."
"I think animals can sense disaster," he added. "They have a sixth sense. They know when things are happening."
The sentiment was echoed by Gehan de Silva Wijeyeratne, whose Jetwing Eco Holidays runs a hotel in the Yala National Park, the country's largest wildlife reserve where hundreds of wild elephants dwell along with some 130 other species.
"This is very interesting. I am finding bodies of humans, but I have yet to see a dead animal,'' he told the Associated Press.
Floodwaters reportedly rushed up to two miles inland at the park, where 41 human bodies have been recovered so far, including 13 foreigners, according to Lanka Business Online.
Wildlife officers reportedly found a 13-year-old boy yesterday morning, the only survivor of the tsunami at the park.
Wildlife Conservation Director General Dayananda Kariyawasam told the paper except for dead fish, no carcasses of animals have been found.
The human death toll in Sri Lanka exceeds 21,000.
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Now, what was it exactly that separates man from beast again???
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted December 30, 2004 04:25 AM |
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Quote:
My whole point for bringing Archimedes and his time of living into this discussion was because these were times of great famine, disease, and poverty as we similarly see in these Indonesian lands affected by this catastrophe.
In the circumstances Archimedes lived, I cant say those were times (and places; namely Syracusae, Alexandria) of “great famine, disease and poverty”. Quite the opposite, those were one of the most developed areas in the Hellenistic World. In this context, I want to point out that in order for there to be scientific development, and whats more, those discoveries to be used and implemented, there should be a certain necessary level of economical and political progress reached before anything else. Its not just a matter of will.
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This technology is not expensive nor is it complicated! I could travel to this part of the world myself and teach them how to do it!
Sorry to be so direct, but you obviously have no idea whats the whole situation there like. This is not about solving picture puzzles, goddamnit. We’re talking expensive high-tech system of seismographic, oceanographic, communicational devices, which form the necessary chain to alert the population in the struck regions in time. It seems to me that you honestly think these people either don’t want to help themselves, or don’t know how, even though its so simple, that an average American highschool student can do it (of course they can). Sad really. I’d advice you Consis to save some time and money and travel somewhere in the Third World. It’ll really change your whole philosophy about the world, young Candide.
And one last thing I couldn’t pass by. I mentioned those puny 15 million $ and I tried to remain calm, as I thought it was obviously that this sum is like a big joke, and several hundreds of millions $ should follow. But unfortunately, some of you here think that not only its not stinginess, but also its already too much kindness “for some people they’ve never even met”. Sadly, those are the same people who toil in sweatshops creating the worth of the American economy, which comes back to them in the form of crumbs charity.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted December 30, 2004 06:06 AM |
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Svarog, how many millions are you donating? Are you going over to Thailand to rebuild? No? Hmmm that's interesting...
It just seems a little ridiculous for you to critisize something, when you can't do any better.
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Targan
Known Hero
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posted December 30, 2004 07:55 AM |
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wolfman
youre comparing an individual (svarog) to a nation (usa) ?
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted December 30, 2004 08:05 AM |
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No, for him to critisize those trying to help without doing anything himself is wrong. If helping is so wrong unless it cures everything, then why help?
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 30, 2004 08:33 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 30 Dec 2004
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Looking For Explanations
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In this context, I want to point out that in order for there to be scientific development, and whats more, those discoveries to be used and implemented, there should be a certain necessary level of economical and political progress reached before anything else. Its not just a matter of will.
With every fiber of my being, I disagree... Not only could I but also you Svarog, be as detrimental to this region of the world with the common knowledge of our two countries. And how? No more than a highschool education is needed plus 'the matter of will' that you speak of. I am convinced without a shadow of a doubt that if people don't care, even if they have the means, then nothing will come about. That's why I whole-heartedly agree with Valeriy's signature. It's on the mark in my opinion. I see a world where there are three kinds of people:
1. People who don't care about anything outside their sheltered circle.
2. People who only look to read and learn.
3. People who care to enough to learn and give the very best they have to offer, not only for themselves and their friends, but also for humanity.
Quote:
Sorry to be so direct, but you obviously have no idea whats the whole situation there like. This is not about solving picture puzzles, goddamnit. We’re talking expensive high-tech system of seismographic, oceanographic, communicational devices, which form the necessary chain to alert the population in the struck regions in time. It seems to me that you honestly think these people either don’t want to help themselves, or don’t know how, even though its so simple, that an average American highschool student can do it (of course they can). Sad really.
Svarog, if you read Khaelo's post you will see that she and I both agree that the quakes were, in fact, detected immediately after they happened. So you can rest assured that the seismic technology, to which you correctly point out it's high learning curve, is already in place. That isn't what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that there was no reasonable means of communication to relay the seismic information from the geologist receiving it, to the local government, and then to the people that could be in danger. This is the technology I'm referring to that is simple, cheap, and only requires minimal manpower to create/construct.
I also understand if you think my philosophy is sad. It's really ok. It does not change my view of the world. My heart tells me that people can only make a difference if they choose to take the initiative. They must be willing(i.e. sacrifce the time required for the task that needs accomplishing) or the consequences could lead to additional damage through neglect of informed situational awareness. Let carpe' diem indeed rule the day.
I don't completely agree with your philosophy either but I do find it intriguing. On a minor note, I think we both share a love for Greek culture and mythology.
Quote:
I’d advice you Consis to save some time and money and travel somewhere in the Third World. It’ll really change your whole philosophy about the world, young Candide.
Perhaps one day you and I will go together. From this trip we might both learn something important about each other. To either of our astonishment, we might both be right on some level not seen by our argumentative minds. I look forward to it with patience and optimism.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Targan
Known Hero
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posted December 30, 2004 08:54 AM |
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Quote:
Svarog, if you read Khaelo's post you will see that she and I both agree that the quakes were, in fact, detected immediately after they happened. So you can rest assured that the seismic technology, to which you correctly point out it's high learning curve, is already in place. That isn't what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that there was no reasonable means of communication to relay the seismic information from the geologist receiving it, to the local government, and then to the people that could be in danger. This is the technology I'm referring to that is simple, cheap, and only requires minimal manpower to create/construct.
of course they could see it and knew about it, the issue isnt IF they could go out with the information but if they WANTED to,
heres a quote from a newspaper:
"Warning rejected to protect tourism"
...“The very important factor in making the decision was that it’s high [tourist] season and hotel rooms were nearly 100-per-cent full. If we issued a warning, which would have led to evacuation, [and if nothing happened], what would happen then? Business would be instantaneously affected. It would be beyond the Meteorological Department’s ability to handle. We could go under, if [the tsunami] didn’t come,” said a source who attended the meeting...
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2004/12/28/headlines/index.php?news=headlines_15908069.html
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 30, 2004 05:42 PM |
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Ugh...
Am I the only one who thinks that's outrageous? If this is true then it is appauling. Talk about benign government. That's very depressing. I hope that article is false Targon. It's difficult for me to comprehend that someone would do that.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted December 31, 2004 04:33 AM |
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I also doubt if this article is true. It seems it falls under the cathegory of “big plot theories” which follow such large-scale events (like with 9/11). I disregard it, mainly because I don’t think the governments would’ve ignored such thing. If it was up to the hotel owners probably, but not the several governments of that region. Maybe they lacked firm proof of the approaching danger, and with the info/technology available they thought of it as a remote possibility, not worthy of mass panic.
I’m not an expert, or directly informed, so i wouldn’t like to speculate as to what kind of technology is necessary for preventive action. What i read in the papers was that from the countries in the region, only Japan has the appropriate technology to handle tsunami threats properly. I think we all agree with that, no matter what kind of technology it is in fact. (i don’t think its just a matter of informing the people, which can be easily done through immediate broadcast on radio and tv)
The fact itself that only developed Japan has it, speaks for the immense will of the Japanese to deal with their problems, in contrast with their neighbours who don’t want to protect themselves, I suppose, Consis.
Quote:
I see a world where there are three kinds of people:
1. People who don't care about anything outside their sheltered circle.
2. People who only look to read and learn.
3. People who care to enough to learn and give the very best they have to offer, not only for themselves and their friends, but also for humanity.
Lets see:
1. People who don't care about anything outside their sheltered circle. – people from the Third World
2. People who only look to read and learn. – somewhat developed world (say, post-communist countries), lagging behind the most developed countries, due to their devotion to theory and little practice.
3. People who care to enough to learn and give the very best they have to offer, not only for themselves and their friends, but also for humanity. – Of course, people from the West, whose success is the result of their devotion to knowledge and hard work.
This is the kind of logic that is promoted only to bail the West out from their part of the responsibility for all the **** in “developing” countries. Its not “your heart” telling you this (i hate that phrase  ); but your experience of how you think things around you function.
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Perhaps one day you and I will go together. From this trip we might both learn something important about each other. To either of our astonishment, we might both be right on some level not seen by our argumentative minds. I look forward to it with patience and optimism.
Patience and optimism, you say. Still sounds like Candide.
To travel, you and me? Hmm, why not. Perhaps some day…
When that day comes, remind me to take extra pairs of socks. I always forget socks. 
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted December 31, 2004 04:47 AM |
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and a reply to the one who's watching me
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Svarog, how many millions are you donating? Are you going over to Thailand to rebuild? No? Hmmm that's interesting...
It just seems a little ridiculous for you to critisize something, when you can't do any better.
Isnt it more redicilous when you dont crticize injustice, but instead are proud with it?
I'm not donating anything because:
I have no credit card. There still isnt an action for aid going over here (wont be). Even if there was, I dont think I'm in the position to give much money, because wealth doesnt really overflow from my pockets either. I would however, strongly support my government to donate financial or manpower assistance, but the appeal for help has a lot more suitable address at the moment, i believe - the White House.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted December 31, 2004 05:55 AM |
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Svarog, this isn't a good guy vs. bad guy scenario. It's a natural disaster and people are coming out to help. You critisize this effort.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted December 31, 2004 05:19 PM |
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You can really see how people had no chance at all of surviving it
Satellite Photo Taken Before
Satellite Photo Taken After
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted December 31, 2004 07:55 PM |
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Svarog --
I have a suggestion. Even if you don't have a credit card, there's still something you can do. If you will look in the thread "Tsunami Earthquake Relief: What You Can Do" you will find an e-mail that you could copy and paste into your e-mail system (changing it around to suit your locale) and forward it to as many people as you can. Even if you don't have the means to contribute, many of them may, and/or many of those to whom they forward the appeal for help.
There are many relief actions going over in the affected areas, contrary to your impression there are not. And private donations, at least in the U.S., are already far outstripping the government's pledge of assistance. As of Wednesday the American Red Cross already amassed $18 million in private donations, and I'm sure the contributions are still pouring in.
http://www.redcross.org/pressrelease/0,1077,0_118_3881,00.html
Also, if you find the sites in the "what you can do" thread inaccessible due to currency or other problems, you might be able to find an organization locally that will accept your currency.
Here's one other I found that accepts the Swiss Franc and the Euro:
http://www.ifrc.org/helpnow/donate/donate_response.asp
Good Luck to you in your endeavors to help, my friend.
<EDIT>
Also, I have been listening to the emabassadors to Indonesia, Sri Lanka and Thailand on C-Span the past few days. One of them (I can't recall which one) confirmed that they were aware of the earthquake within minutes of it happening, but declined to act simply because several other sea-bed earthquakes had occurred in that area without any tangible effect to the coastlines, and they had no reason to suspect this one would be any different. It is important to recall that the conditions must be just so in order to create tsunami conditions. The fact is, virtually nobody foresaw this particular occurrence.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 31, 2004 10:22 PM |
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Piss On Spain!
Check this out:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/12/29/quake.aid/index.html
And I quote: "Spain will approve a $68 million line of credit as emergency aid, the Foreign Ministry announced late Wednesday."
It's a loan! They're loaning their aid to the victims! Can you believe it? Basically they're saying: "Oh sure you can have some aid but don't forget that you owe us when you get back on your feet." Talk about callous, how careless of Spain in my opinion. They don't seem to understand that these people have nothing! No other country in the world is loaning to these people. Why is it that everyone else understands that these people need aid and support free of obligation? Why is Spain so stingy?
I also think it's quite ridiculous to criticize the U.S. for giving out free donations while Spain gets away with loaning their aid to these poor victims.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 01, 2005 07:18 PM |
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Really b!tchy of Spain to do that. 
Latest info I have:
Japan will donate 500 million
US will donate 350 million
Overall, around 2 billion are promissed for now.
In the meanwhile, the number of victims has reached 140,000 and there are predictions that it might go up to 300,000 people. Some islands have literally been erased from the map.
thanx, peacemaker, i will forward that e-mail.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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