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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Our bloody roots literature...
Thread: Our bloody roots literature... This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Shai-Hulud
Shai-Hulud


Known Hero
Sicomor
posted May 12, 2005 02:10 AM
Edited By: Shai-Hulud on 11 May 2005

Our bloody roots literature...

...and our connections with our traditions...

Lately, I have been involved in some projects involving "folklore" literature, and it got my attention quite much. Like in Romania we have an important liric balade called "Miorita" ( translated not to lirical : The Sheep ). This balade can only be found in Romania.
Near a low foothill

At Heaven’s doorsill,

Where the trail’s descending

To the plain and ending,

Here three shepherds keep

Their three flocks of sheep,

One, Moldavian,

One, Transylvanian

And one, Vrancean.

Now, the Vrancean

And the Transylvanian

In their thoughts, conniving,

Have laid plans, contriving

At the close of day

To ambush and slay

The Moldavian;

He, the wealthier one,

Had more flocks to keep,

Handsome, long-horned sheep,

Horses, trained and sound,

And the fiercest hounds.

One small ewe-lamb, though,

Dappled gray as tow,

While three full days passed

Bleated loud and fast;

Would not touch the grass.

”Ewe-lamb, dapple-gray,

Muzzled black and gray,

While three full days passed

You bleat loud and fast;

Don’t you like this grass?

Are you too sick to eat,

Little lamb so sweet?”

”Oh my master dear,

Drive the flock out near

That field, dark to view,

Where the grass grows new,

Where there’s shade for you.

”Master, master dear,

Call a large hound near,

A fierce one and fearless,

Strong, loyal and peerless.

The Transylvanian

And the Vrancean

When the daylight’s through

Mean to murder you.”

”Lamb, my little ewe,

If this omen’s true,

If I’m doomed to death

On this tract of heath,

Tell the Vrancean

And Transylvanian

To let my bones lie

Somewhere here close by,

By the sheepfold here

So my flocks are near,

Back of my hut’s grounds

So I’ll hear my hounds.

Tell them what I say:

There, beside me lay

One small pipe of beech





Whith its soft, sweet speech,

One small pipe of bone

Whit its loving tone,

One of elderwood,

Fiery-tongued and good.

Then the winds that blow

Would play on them so

All my listening sheep

Would draw near and weep

Tears, no blood so deep.

How I met my death,

Tell them not a breath;

Say I could not tarry,

I have gone to marry

A princess – my bride

Is the whole world’s pride.

At my wedding, tell

How a bright star fell,

Sun and moon came down

To hold my bridal crown,

Firs and maple trees

Were my guests; my priests

Were the mountains high;

Fiddlers, birds that fly,

All birds of the sky;

Torchlights, stars on high.

But if you see there,

Should you meet somewhere,

My old mother, little,

With her white wool girdle,

Eyes with their tears flowing,

Over the plains going,

Asking one and all,

Saying to them all,

’Who has ever known,

Who has seen my own

Shepherd fine to see,

Slim as a willow tree,

With his dear face, bright

As the milk-foam, white,

His small moustache, right

As the young wheat’s ear,

With his hair so dear,

Like plumes of the crow

Little eyes that glow

Like the ripe black sloe?’

Ewe-lamb, small and pretty,

For her sake have pity,

Let it just be said

I have gone to wed

A princess most noble

There on Heaven’s doorsill.

To that mother, old,

Let it not be told

That a star fell, bright,

For my bridal night;

Firs and maple trees

Were my guests, priests

Were the mountains high;

Fiddlers, birds that fly,

All birds of the sky;

Torchlights, stars on high.”

It's folklore, so nobody has the copyright.
Another one is Monastirea Argesului or Mesterul Manole( found also in Macedonia and other balkanic countries). I suppose Svarog knows it already( hey Svarog wouldn't mid if you posted the Macedonian version around here somewhere-- would be really interested).
Also we have fairy tales too, like Fat-Frumos ( meaning The Beautifull Young Men or something like that...). Even if I thought it to be unique, I found out that in Japan a similar fairy tale can be found.
Also, you can find Doina( a lirical genre..).

The interesting part is that all this literature about folklor is in direct connection with the people dance and what they wear.

This one is a man folklor costume...

This one is a woman folklor costume...

Kids on New Year's Eve singing "plugul" (meaning plough), a happy song about joy and all the rest.

And a romanian kinda dance called hora.



I, for one, would be really interested in finding out about other nations folklor , and mostly Asian style.. Hope you too..

____________
~~~Azzy~~~

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted May 12, 2005 02:57 AM

Excellent idea. I've been thinking of creating a folk-thread for some time as well, just couldnt find the time to make a proper opening post. I'll see to it that I put in some Macednian folklore here as soon as I can.
What I'd mostly like to see/read about is Armenian folklore, Native American (US and Canada), as well as Baltic countries. (preferably actual folk-music from these all)
Shai, Mesterul Manole doesnt sound familiar. Is it some expression in Romanian or what, cos in macednian it means nothing.
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

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Shai-Hulud
Shai-Hulud


Known Hero
Sicomor
posted May 12, 2005 03:11 AM

Our bloody roots literature...

Ahh.. i forget to write something about that, sorry. In trasnlation something like Artisan Manole, but I suposse in macedonian the main charachter has a different name.. but .. The storyline in basics is something like a king(voievod in Romania) wants a beautifull church built, the master creation. The master of the artisans in the country tries to built it, but everynight what they razed during the day it collapses for many nights. The Master Artisan has a dream in which a voice from above tells him to build in the wall the first woman who passes around there, wife or daughter. The master artisan makes an agreement with the other 9 artisans not to tell their wives about the sacrifice, but the artisans don't respect the agreement. The first to come to building place is the Master's Artisan  wife. Manole fouls her with a game and she builts the woman into the wall alive. In the ending everyone of the artisans dies beacuse of a mistake involving their agreement with the king, and they all jump off the church, trying to build wings like Icar.

Hope that clarifies.. The bad part is that you can't find one translation in english of Mesterul Manole...
____________
~~~Azzy~~~

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ratmonky
ratmonky


Famous Hero
Abu Hur Ibn Rashka
posted May 12, 2005 06:47 PM
Edited By: ratmonky on 12 May 2005

here's some random Armenian stuff

Vahagn is the pagan Armenian god of fire and volcanos. Some linguists believe that this poem has an Indo-European origin and it was passed down the generations for more than a 1,5 thousand years before it was finally written down by Moses of Chorene in the 5th century.

Birth of Vahagn

Heaven and earth were in labor,
And in labor was the purple sea,
And in labor was the red reed in the sea.

Out of the reed smoke came forth,
Out of the reed flames came forth,
And out of the flames a blonde boy came forth.

He had hair of fire,
And a beard of flame,
And his eyes were two suns.

(Moses of Chorene, History of the Armenians, 5th century AD)

next is the legend about Hayk (also written by Moses of Chorene), the legendary forefather of all Armenians, and also the supreme god of the ancient pre-hellenic Armenian paganism. this legend is especially close to my heart because my real name is Hayk too

Hayk and Bel

First I shall begin to describe tales [concerning]
the awesome king and brave man, the history of the
ancestors from whom the entire country was settled;
then, added to these, tales about the giants and vain
fables about inept troops which conceived and gave
birth to the Tower, and then were dispersed
throughout the great, countless uninhabited places
where [previously] no voice had penetrated. Titans
were ceaselessly putting each other to the sword;
[and they were] the first to rule over the world.


Be'l the Titan regarded himself as above all the
races of mankind, not recognizing his own nature;
rather, he summoned all the races of mankind to his
service. Now at that time Hayk, born of Japheth
(Abet'), did not want to submit in service to King
Be'l, disdaining to call him a god. So Be'l attacked
Hayk in battle, but valiant Hayk harassed him with
[his] bow.

This is the Hayk who begat his son Aramenak in
Babylon. Aramenak begat numerous sons and daughters,
the eldest [son being] Aramayis. Aramayis begat many
sons and daughters, the eldest being Amasia. Amasia
begat many sons and daughters, the eldest being
Gegham. Gegham begat many sons and daughters, the
eldest being Harma. Harma begat many sons and
daughters, the eldest being Aram. Aram begat many
sons and daughters, the eldest being Ara the
Handsome.

[2] Now these are the names of the men who gave birth
to [the Armenian] race who were born in Babylon and
went to the northern areas, to the country of Ararad.
For Hayk left Babylon with his wife and sons and all
their household. He went and settled in the Ararad
country in an estate at the foot of a mountain, which
previously had been built by Zruan together with his
fathers and brothers.

Hayk gave to his grandson Kadmos, Aramenak's son,
[this] property in inheritance. Then [Hayk] himself
went farther north and settled in the midst of a
highland plain which he named Hark', after the name
of the Fathers.

The country was called Hayk', appropriately [named]
after him, and the people, Haykids [Armenians].

Now this Hayk was very strong and handsome, and an
extremely powerful archer and warrior.

At that time the giant Be'l the Titan ruled as king
in Babylon, a hunter and grand false god who was
extremely powerful and very handsome. He was ruler
over all peoples spread across the face of the entire
world and he [accomplished] his royal commands over
all peoples with the aid of witchcraft. In his
boastful pride, [Be'l] erected images of himself and
had the country worship him as a god and offer
sacrifices.

All peoples immediately implemented his orders,
except for a certain [man] named Hayk, the patriarch
(nahapet) of peoples who did not submit to his
service, did not erect [Be'l's] image in his home and
did not glorify him as a god.

This man's name was Hayk, and King Be'l conceived a
great grudge against him. King Be'l massed troops in
Babylon and went against Hayk to kill him.

He reached the country of Ararad and the estate which
was their patrimony which had been built at the base
of the mountain. Kadmos fled to Hark' to inform his
father, saying: "King Be'l is coming against you and
has reached the estate there, and so I, with my wife
and children have come [to you] as fugitives."

Hayk took Aramenak and his son Kadmos as well as
their sons and the sons of their seven daughters,
gigantic men but few in number.

Hayk went to fight King Be'l but was unable to
confront him because of the multitude of [Be'l's]
gigantic armored men.

Now when Hayk struck at King Be'l, Be'l wanted to
seize him with his own hands, but Hayk evaded him and
fled. In hot pursuit, Be'l went after him with his
weapons-bearer.

Hayk halted and asked him: "Why do you pursue me?
Return to your own place so that you do not die today
at my hands, for my arrow will not miss its mark."
Then Be'l replied: "[I pursue you in person] so that
you do not fall into the hands of my young men and
perish. Instead, give yourself up to me and live in
my house in peace, looking after the young hunters in
my house."

Hayk answered him, saying: "You are a dog and from a
pack of dogs, you and your people. Therefore, today I
will empty my quiver at you." The Titan King [Be'l]
was armored and trusted in the full armoring of his
person.

Hayk, [descendant] of Japheth, advanced closer,
holding in his hand a bow which was like a branch of
a mighty pine tree, and then he took position against
[Be'l] with his bow at the ready. He picked up [the]
quiver from the ground by him and [putting an arrow]
to the gigantic arc of his bow, drew it back to his
shoulder and [released the] arrow [which] forcefully
penetrated the armor plating, pierced the bronze
shield, passed through the pillar of meat and
emerged, falling on the ground. The giant, who
thought himself to be a god, immediately fell to the
ground and his troops fled. Pursuing them, [Hayk and
his troops] took herds of horses, mules and camels
from them.

Hayk returned to his own place; and he went and took
over the country of Ararad and dwelled there with his
clan (azg), until now. At the time of his death, he
gave his heritable property to his grandson, Katmos,
son of Aramenak, brother of Harma. And he ordered
Aramenak to go to the northern region where he
himself had first dwelled.

After the death of Hayk, Aramenak took his sons and
daughters and their husbands, the seven sisters and
their husbands, sons, and daughters, with all of
their belongings, and went and dwelled there in the
first district which they called Hark', after the
name of their father, Hayk'. Then Aramenak went
farther north, descending onto a deep plain which is
between lofty mountains and which is crossed by a
fast-moving river. Crossing this, Aramenak settled
there and built up the country of his inheritance, a
place of mountains and rocks [Armenia].

(Moses of Chorene, History of the Armenians, 5th century AD)

next is a picture of me and a girl wearing national costumes, greeting guests and distributing leaflets during the national wine festival. (i can't believe i'm actually posting this pic! )


and finally Armenian national dances


____________
Dies illa, dies irae,
Calamitatis et miseriae.
Requiem aeternum
Dona eis, dona eis Domine.

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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted May 12, 2005 07:40 PM
Edited By: terje_the_mad_wizard on 12 May 2005

Man, I would love to see an historian's analysis of that story of yours Hayk! Truly fascinating!


If anyone's interested in Norwegian stuff, here's a link to the complete Norwegian King's Sagas:
Snorre Sturlasons Sagas

Here is a link to the Poetic Edda; a tale about the creation of the world, according to Norse mythology, if I'm not mistaken:
The Poetic Edda

Since I've linked to the Poetic Edda, I guess I can do the same for the Prose Edda as well. It is a collection of old Norse bard tales, and creation myths, and watnot. Basically, it's a guide book for young bards, who Snorre at the time felt were losing their heathen traditions (this was about 200 years after the Christianization of Norway):
The Prose Edda

This is the Håvamål, or "Speech of the High", which is a poem "told by" Odin (Woden, Votan), where he tells the people how to behave.
Håvamål


To finish, here's the prologue of the Prose Edda (let it be noted that it was written by the Christian Snorre. That is why it starts with a retelling of the Abrahamic creation myth. The guy didn't want to by burned at the stake, obviously ):

PROLOGUE
IN the beginning God created heaven and earth and all those things which are in them; and last of all, two of human kind, Adam and Eve, from whom the races are descended. And their offspring multiplied among themselves and were scattered throughout the earth. But as time passed, the races of men became unlike in nature: some were good and believed on the right; but many more turned after the lusts of the world and slighted God's command. Wherefore, God drowned the world in a swelling of the sea, and all living things, save them alone that were in the ark with Noah. After Noah's flood eight of mankind remained alive, who peopled the earth; and the races descended from them. And it was even as before: when the earth was full of folk and inhabited of many, then all the multitude of mankind began to love greed, wealth, and worldly honor, but neglected the worship of God. Now accordingly it came to so evil a pass that they would not name God; and who then could tell their sons of God's mighty wonders? Thus it happened that they lost the name of God; and throughout the wideness of the world the man was not found who could distinguish in aught the trace of his Creator. But not the less did God bestow upon them the gifts of the earth: wealth and happiness, for their enjoyment in the world; He increased also their wisdom, so that they knew all earthly matters, and every phase of whatsoever they might see in the air and on the earth.
      One thing they wondered and pondered over: what it might mean, that the earth and the beasts and the birds had one nature in some ways, and yet were unlike in manner of

4

life. In this was their nature one: that the earth was cleft into lofty mountain-peaks, wherein water spurted up, and it was not needful to dig longer for water there than in the deep valleys; so it is also with beasts and birds: it is equally far to the blood in the head and the feet. Another quality of the earth is, that in each year grass and flowers grow upon the earth, and in the same year all that growth falls away and withers; it is even so with beasts and birds: hair and feathers grow and fall away each year. This is the third nature of the earth, that when it is opened and dug up, the grass grows straightway on the soil which is uppermost on the earth. Boulders and stones they likened to the teeth and bones of living beings. Thus they recognized that the earth was quick, and had life with some manner of nature of its own; and they understood that she was wondrous old in years and mighty in kind: she nourished all that lived, and she took to herself all that died. Therefore they gave her a name, and traced the number of their generations from her. The same thing, moreover, they learned from their aged kinsmen: that many hundreds of years have been numbered since the same earth yet was, and the same sun and stars of the heavens; but the courses of these were unequal, some having a longer course, and some a shorter.
      From things like these the thought stirred within them that there might be some governor of the stars of heaven: one who might order their courses after his will; and that he must be very strong and full of might. This also they held to be true: that if he swayed the chief things of creation, he must have been before the stars of heaven; and they saw that if he ruled the courses of the heavenly bodies, he must also govern the shining of the sun, and the dews of the air, and the fruits of the earth, whatsoever grows

5

upon it; and in like manner the winds of the air and the storms of the sea. They knew not yet where his kingdom was; but this they believed: that he ruled all things on earth and in the sky, the great stars also of the heaven, and the winds of the sea. Wherefore, not only to tell of this fittingly, but also that they might fasten it in memory, they gave names out of their own minds to all things. This belief of theirs has changed in many ways, according as the peoples drifted asunder and their tongues became severed one from another. But all things they discerned with the wisdom of the earth, for the understanding of the spirit was not given to them; this they perceived, that all things were fashioned of some essence.


II

The world was divided into three parts: from the south, extending into the west and bordering on the Mediterranean Sea,-all this part was called Africa, the southern quarter of which is hot, so that it is parched with the sun. The second part, from west to north and bordering on the ocean, is called Európá or Eneá; its northern part is so cold that no grass grows upon it, and no man dwells there. From the north and all down over the eastern part, even to the south, is called Asia. In that region of the world is all fairness and pride, and the fruits of the earth's increase, gold and jewels. There also is the centre of the earth; and even as the land there is lovelier and better in every way than in other places, so also were the sons of men there most favored with all goodly gifts: wisdom, and strength of the body, beauty, and all manner of knowledge.

6

III

Near the earth's centre was made that goodliest of homes and haunts that ever have been, which is called Troy, even that which we call Turkland. This abode was much more gloriously made than others, and fashioned with more skill of craftsmanship in manifold wise, both in luxury and in the wealth which was there in abundance. There were twelve kingdoms and one High King, and many sovereignties belonged to each kingdom; in the stronghold were twelve chieftains. These chieftains were in every manly part greatly above other men that have ever been in the world. One king among them was called Múnón or Mennón; and he was wedded to the daughter of the High King Priam, her who was called Tróán; they had a child named Trór, whom we call Thor. He was fostered in Thrace by a certain war-duke called Lóríkus; but when he was ten winters old he took unto him the weapons of his father. He was as goodly to look upon, when he came among other men, as the ivory that is inlaid in oak; his hair was fairer than gold. When he was twelve winters old be had his full measure of strength; then he lifted clear of the earth ten bear-skins all at one time; and then he slew Duke Lóríkus, his foster-father, and with him his wife Lórá, or Glórá, and took into his own hands the realm of Thrace, which we call Thrúdheim. Then he went forth far and wide over the lands, and sought out every quarter of the earth, overcoming alone all berserks and giants, and one dragon, greatest of all dragons, and many beasts. In the northern half of his kingdom he found the prophetess that is called Síbil, whom we call Sif, and wedded her. The lineage of Sif cannot tell; she was fairest of all women,

7

and her hair was like gold. Their son was Lóridi, who resembled his father; his son was Einridi, his son Vingethor, his son Vingener, his son Móda, his son Magi, his son Seskef, his son Bedvig, his son Athra (whom we call Annarr), his son Itermann, his son Heremód, his son Skjaldun (whom we call Skjöld), his son Bjáf (whom we call Bjárr), his son Ját, his son Gudólfr, his son Finn, his son Friallaf (whom we call Fridleifr); his son was he who is named Vóden, whom we call Odin: he was a man far-famed for wisdom and every accomplishment. His wife was Frígídá, whom we call Frigg.


IV

Odin bad second sight, and his wife also; and from their foreknowledge he found that his name should be exalted in the northern part of the world and glorified above the fame of all other kings. Therefore, he made ready to journey out of Turkland, and was accompanied by a great multitude of people, young folk and old, men and women; and they had with them much goods of great price. And wherever they went over the lands of the earth, many glorious things were spoken of them, so that they were held more like gods than men. They made no end to their journeying till they were come north into the land that is now called Saxland; there Odin tarried for a long space, and took the land into his own hand, far and wide.
      In that land Odin set up three of his sons for landwardens. One was named Vegdeg: he was a mighty king and ruled over East Saxland; his son was Vitgils; his sons were Vitta, Heingistr's father, and Sigarr, father of Svebdeg, whom we call Svipdagr. The second son of Odin was

8

Beldeg, whom we call Baldr: be had the land which is now called Westphalia. His son was Brandr, his son Frjódigar (whom we call Fródi), his son Freóvin, his son Uvigg, his son Gevis (whom we call Gave). Odin's third son is named Sigi, his son Rerir. These the forefathers ruled over what is now called Frankland; and thence is descended the house known as Völsungs. From all these are sprung many and great houses.
      Then Odin began his way northward, and came into the land which they called Reidgothland; and in that land he took possession of all that pleased him. He set up over the land that son of his called Skjöldr, whose son was Fridleifr,-and thence descends the house of the Skjöldungs: these are the kings of the Danes. And what was then called Reidgothland is now called Jutland.


V

After that be went northward, where the land is called Sweden; the king there was named Gylfi. When the king learned of the coming of those men of Asia, who were called Æsir, he went to meet them, and made offer to them that Odin should have such power in his realm as he himself wielded. And such well-being followed ever upon their footsteps, that in whatsoever lands they dwelt were good seasons and peace; and all believed that they caused these things, for the lords of the land perceived that they were unlike other men whom they had seen, both in fairness and also in wisdom.
      The fields and the choice lands in that place seemed fair to Odin, and he chose for himself the site of a city which is now called Sigtún. There be established chieftains in the


9

fashion which had prevailed in Troy; he set up also twelve head-men to be doomsmen over the people and to judge the laws of the land; and he ordained also all laws as there had been before in Troy, and according to the customs of the Turks. After that he went into the north, until he was stopped by the sea, which men thought lay around all the lands of the earth; and there he set his son over this kingdom, which is now called Norway. This king was Sæmingr; the kings of Norway trace their lineage from him, and so do also the jarls and the other mighty men, as is said in the Háleygjatal. Odin had with him one of his Sons called Yngvi, who was king in Sweden after him; and those houses come from him that are named Ynglings. The Æsir took wives of the land for themselves, and some also for their sons; and these kindreds became many in number, so that throughout Saxland, and thence all over the region of the north, they spread out until their tongue, even the speech of the men of Asia, was the native tongue over all these lands. Therefore men think that they can perceive, from their forefathers' names which are written down, that those names belonged to this tongue, and that the Æsir brought the tongue hither into the northern region, into Norway and into Sweden, into Denmark and into Saxland. But in England there are ancient lists of land-names and place-names which may show that these names came from another tongue than this.



And here's the first part of the Håvamål:
I.I

1.

The man who stands at a strange threshold,
Should be cautious before he cross it,
Glance this way and that:
Who knows beforehand what foes may sit
Awaiting him in the hall?

2.

Greetings to the host,
The guest has arrived,
In which seat shall he sit?
Rash is he who at unknown doors
Relies on his good luck,

3.

Fire is needed by the newcomer
Whose knees are frozen numb;
Meat and clean linen a man needs
Who has fared across the fells,

4.

Water, too, that he may wash before eating,
Handcloth's and a hearty welcome,
Courteous words, then courteous silence
That he may tell his tale,

5.

Who travels widely needs his wits about him,
The stupid should stay at home:
The ignorant man is often laughed at
When he sits at meat with the sage,

6.

Of his knowledge a man should never boast,
Rather be sparing of speech
When to his house a wiser comes:
Seldom do those who are silent Make mistakes;
mother wit Is ever a faithful friend,

7.

A guest should be courteous
When he comes to the table
And sit in wary silence,
His ears attentive,
his eyes alert:
So he protects himself,

8.

Fortunate is he who is favoured in his lifetime
With praise and words of wisdom:
Evil counsel is often given
By those of evil heart,

9.

Blessed is he who in his own lifetime
Is awarded praise and wit,
For ill counsel is often given
By mortal men to each other,

10.

Better gear than good sense
A traveller cannot carry,
Better than riches for a wretched man,
Far from his own home,

11.

Better gear than good sense
A traveller cannot carry,
A more tedious burden than too much drink
A traveller cannot carry,

12.

Less good than belief would have it
Is mead for the sons of men:
A man knows less the more he drinks,
Becomes a befuddled fool,

13.

I-forget is the name men give the heron
Who hovers over the fast:
Fettered I was in his feathers that night,
When a guest in Gunnlod's court

14.

Drunk I got, dead drunk,
When Fjalar the wise was with me:
Best is the banquet one looks back on after,
And remembers all that happened,

15.

Silence becomes the Son of a prince,
To be silent but brave in battle:
It befits a man to be merry and glad
Until the day of his death,

16.

The coward believes he will live forever
If he holds back in the battle,
But in old age he shall have no peace
Though spears have spared his limbs

17.

When he meets friends, the fool gapes,
Is shy and sheepish at first,
Then he sips his mead and immediately
All know what an oaf he is,


18.

He who has seen and suffered much,
And knows the ways of the world,
Who has travelled', can tell what spirit
Governs the men he meets,


19.

Drink your mead, but in moderation,
Talk sense or be silent:
No man is called discourteous who goes
To bed at an early hour

20.

A gluttonous man who guzzles away
Brings sorrow on himself:
At the table of the wise he is taunted often,
Mocked for his bloated belly,

21.

The herd knows its homing time,
And leaves the grazing ground:
But the glutton never knows how much
His belly is able to hold,

22.

An ill tempered, unhappy man
Ridicules all he hears,
Makes fun of others, refusing always
To see the faults in himself

23.

Foolish is he who frets at night,
And lies awake to worry'
A weary man when morning comes,
He finds all as bad as before,

24.

The fool thinks that those who laugh
At him are all his friends,
Unaware when he sits with wiser men
How ill they speak of him.

25.

The fool thinks that those who laugh
At him are all his friends:
When he comes to the Thing and calls for support,
Few spokesmen he finds

26.

The fool who fancies he is full of wisdom
While he sits by his hearth at home.
Quickly finds when questioned by others .
That he knows nothing at all.

27.

The ignorant booby had best be silent
When he moves among other men,
No one will know what a nit-wit he is
Until he begins to talk;
No one knows less what a nit-wit he is
Than the man who talks too much.

28.

To ask well, to answer rightly,
Are the marks of a wise man:
Men must speak of men's deeds,
What happens may not be hidden.

29.

Wise is he not who is never silent,
Mouthing meaningless words:
A glib tongue that goes on chattering
Sings to its own harm.

30.

A man among friends should not mock another:
Many believe the man
Who is not questioned to know much
And so he escapes their scorn.


31.

An early meal a man should take
Before he visits friends,
Lest, when he gets there,
he go hungry,
Afraid to ask for food.

32.

The fastest friends may fall out
When they sit at the banquet-board:
It is, and shall be, a shameful thing
When guest quarrels with guest,
____________
"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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ratmonky
ratmonky


Famous Hero
Abu Hur Ibn Rashka
posted May 12, 2005 09:57 PM

Quote:
Man, I would love to see an historian's analysis of that story of yours Hayk! Truly fascinating!


actually there are many different views on the origin of Armenians. As you can see in this legend, we are believed to come from Babylon/Mesopotamia/Summeria.

Herodote wrote (though it is very doubtful) that the forefather of Armenians was a Phrygian called Armenius (sp?)who participated in Jason's quest for the Golden Fleece and later moved to the Armenian Highlands and founded his own kingdom.

Interestingly enough Georgians have a similar myth about Hayk and Bel where it is said that the patriarchs of Armenians, Georgians and Caucasian Albanians (do not confuse with European Albanians) were brothers and united they fought against Bel (Babylon). This is also not true because Armenians are Indo-Europeans, unlike Georgians and Albanians who are Caucasians in origin.
____________
Dies illa, dies irae,
Calamitatis et miseriae.
Requiem aeternum
Dona eis, dona eis Domine.

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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted May 12, 2005 10:26 PM

There's nothing so fascinating as unknown history; history where we have a rather sketchy knowledge, and have to support our knowledge on myths and legends in order to get a better picture of events. I just love it! Thanks again, rat!
____________
"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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Shai-Hulud
Shai-Hulud


Known Hero
Sicomor
posted May 12, 2005 10:36 PM
Edited By: Shai-Hulud on 12 May 2005

I tried to find out what national religion Armenia had and I found out some intereting views.. Armenian Apostolic 94%, other Christian 4%, Yezidi (Zoroastrian/animist) 2% (source www.euroasia.org).
I know something about Armenian Apostolic, as I know it comes from the two apostles who died in Armenia and I belive it's orthodox since it's in east. What about Zoroastrian/Animist? As I know Zoroastru has something to do with the sun and daylight, but not to much..Also heard in a poem of Mihai Eminescu( which has been known to be found of asian religion ) the name Zoroastru..

P.S. Svarog
I stiil hope you realized what I'm talking about and still hope I will see the macedonian version of that balad.
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~~~Azzy~~~

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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted May 12, 2005 10:43 PM
Edited By: terje_the_mad_wizard on 12 May 2005

Zoroaster was the founder of the Persian state religion, I think, and has thus gotten that religion named after him.

Wiki:
Zoroaster

Extract (notice the last sentence! ):
The name zaraθ-uštra is a Bahuvrihi compound in the Avestan language, of zarəta- "feeble, old" and uštra "camel", translating to "having old camels, the one who owns old camels". The first part of the name was formerly commonly translated as "yellow" or "golden", from the Avestan "zaray", giving the meaning "[having] yellow camels". A more romantic, but inaccurate, translation of the name in the past has been "[bringer of the] golden dawn", based on the mistaken assumption that the second part of the name is a variant of the Vedic word "Ushas" meaning "dawn". This last translation seems to have derived from a desire to give a more fitting meaning to the prophet's name than "owner of feeble camels".
____________
"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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ratmonky
ratmonky


Famous Hero
Abu Hur Ibn Rashka
posted May 13, 2005 04:35 AM

Quote:
I tried to find out what national religion Armenia had and I found out some intereting views.. Armenian Apostolic 94%, other Christian 4%, Yezidi (Zoroastrian/animist) 2% (source www.euroasia.org).
I know something about Armenian Apostolic, as I know it comes from the two apostles who died in Armenia and I belive it's orthodox since it's in east. What about Zoroastrian/Animist? As I know Zoroastru has something to do with the sun and daylight, but not to much..Also heard in a poem of Mihai Eminescu( which has been known to be found of asian religion ) the name Zoroastru..

i'm sorry but the zoroastrian part is not entirely correct.
it's not the Armenians who are zoroastrians it's the Yezidic (pagan kurds) minority who live in Armenia!

besides, Armenian Church has little to do with Orthodoxism, as it is considered one of the ancient 5 churches of asia in a par with Assyrian, Coptic, Ethiopian and Malabar Church of India.

____________
Dies illa, dies irae,
Calamitatis et miseriae.
Requiem aeternum
Dona eis, dona eis Domine.

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted May 16, 2005 04:33 AM

Hey Hayk, nice pics. I’ve had little contact with Armenian culture. I’ve been to a concert once where this Armenian singer played some instrumentals, and it was fascinating. Also, System of a Down are said to have some Armenian influences in some of their songs (the part about their songs that i actually like). That’s why I’d like to learn more about that culture. Whats the language like? U said European, but does it sound mostly like Russian, or what? Is there a separate alphabet, like in Georgia, or u use the Latin script? I know Armenia has a long history and tradition, but it would be ice to know the golden age periods so to say, and the countries that ruled it (Persia, Turkey, Russia, i presume). In addition, if u uploaded some songs, itd be cool.
It was not long ago in history, that a sizeable Armenian minority lived in Macedonia (the Greek part currently), but they were assimilated at some point in the greater population during the wars (or moved). Also, around IX-X, the most famous medieval ruler in Macedonia was said to come from an Armenian dinasty according to some sources. U see, these are some interesting historical links between us, for which I’m not sure if you knew about.

Shai, I don’t think i know that legend in Macedonian. I remember hearing once about a legend with building a maiden(s?) in a wall, but i must have been to lazy to remember it what was it about actually. I guess, if there is at all a macednian version, its not nation-wide popular here.

Terje, interesting Eddas. I see the evident Christian influence in there, but I’m not sure to which extent. How godly were Norse gods actually? I don’t think they were considered “legendary kings” type of gods in pre-Christian times, like in the Eddas, or am i wrong? Do the story about the kingdoms they ruled and the lands they conquered counts also as mythlogy, or is it only a part of this story. Btw, the history twist in the Edda (bout Ancient Greece) is a killer. Makes me question even more the accuracy of some historical written records.

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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted May 16, 2005 04:36 AM
Edited By: Svarog on 15 May 2005

Macedonian folklore

I turned the Net upside down searching for translated folk poetry, but I found not a bloody one. Most of the folk works lived in the mouths of the Macednian people for centuries, until they were finally written down starting from the second half of the XIX. Its an aboundance of lyrical peoms and songs (the most), rutual-related, some epic ones, also blesses, curses, riddles, sayings…
There are no written down mythological narratives as well, because since Slavic scripture (Cyrillic alphabet) was created in Macedonia in IX century, only religious texts were transcribed and copied, and all the the medieval literature is only hagiographies, rites, sermons, gospels and the like. As far as I know, it was the case with all Slavic countries, which is one reason why theres so little preserved today of Slavic mythology. Most is inherited from oral tradition.
What I have found anyway, is Macednian folk music and national dresses.
It is said that Macedonain music is the richest artistic musical collection on the Balkans, due to the colourful outside influences and the solid native base. Most of the songs are lyrical, deeply emotional, vibrant melodic lines, a very unusual rhythm (7/8 is the most popular) for Westerners. They are almost always accompanied by national dances (called “oro”, i see this word sounds almost everywhere the same ); a tradition that is very alive and applied in everyday life even today.
Medieval Macedonian music was was part of the Byzantian tradition of vocal choral singing. (I don’t have any to offer, except a song from a “Macedo-gothic metal” band incorporating such Byzantian elements ) Paralel to this sacred music, the folk music evolved in several types of subgenres, for some of which I have one sample.

Me Fatije – Synthesis: This is an example of a pretty much old type of folk songs, performed by a popular Macedonian world-music artists with traditional instruments. It sounds primordial and raw, with the typical high-pitched female vocals. The title translates something as “They caught me”; the lyrics are about a girl who was captured by a foreign army, and she cries to her mother and tells her not to wait for her for dinner. In the second part of the song theres a solo instrument, called zurla, which is a type of oboe.



Zajdi, zajdi jasno sonce: Is one of the most popular Macednian lyrical songs. I don’t like this exact version, but it was the only one I had. The man speaks with the sun and the forest, and in a compassionate way tells them about the end of his youth (comparing it with the sun setting behind the mountains, and the forest losing its leaves)


Komitsko oro (Rebels dance) – The dancers wear the costumes which were typical for the Macedonian rebels during the Ottoman era, and seerved as an inspiration for the modern Macedonian elite guard. Other dances and national dresses:






An ugly wedding dress


Man with a bagpipe (gajda) – has a distinctive sound from other bagpipes, due to a constant drone (single monotonous note during playing) and oscilating tones


This is more than 5 years old photo of a very good friend of mine. It’s a nice ambient with the flowers, that go nicely with her traditional dress (she’s been going in a folk dancing fellowship for ages now). Unlike raymonky, i didn’t have one of myself, so heres a decent compensation. Now I guess we should see terje with a horned helmet and bear skins...



Antice – String Forces and Pece Atanasovski: from the so called genre of “Old-town chalgia songs”. These are relatively of recent date (XVIII-XIX), with the development of city culture in Macedonia, and theres a notable oriental (Turkish) influence, namely instruments (the type of lute played) and music decour, but the melody and the lyrics are traditional Macedonian.


Old town architecture in Ohrid
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted May 18, 2005 06:58 PM

Quote:
Terje, interesting Eddas. I see the evident Christian influence in there, but I’m not sure to which extent. How godly were Norse gods actually? I don’t think they were considered “legendary kings” type of gods in pre-Christian times, like in the Eddas, or am i wrong? Do the story about the kingdoms they ruled and the lands they conquered counts also as mythlogy, or is it only a part of this story. Btw, the history twist in the Edda (bout Ancient Greece) is a killer. Makes me question even more the accuracy of some historical written records.


Well, both the Christian and the Ancient Greek themes in the Eddas have been added by Snorre Sturlason in the 13th century. The Christian stuff so as to not insult the authoritarian Roman-Catholic Church of the time by implying that the Norse mythology was more authentic than the Christian one; while the Ancient Greek mumbu-jumbo most likely was added to discredit the Norse gods as being no more than old Greek heroes, and not as gods.

The Norwegian "crypto-historian" Thor Heyerdahl actually claimed that while the parts about Tor and most of the other gods (i.e. the ones that Snorre said came from Troy) could well be invented to make Snorre look good to the Church, he doubted that this was the case for Odin. Heyerdahl actually went so far as to claim that Odin was originally a chief from the Caucasus, and that he and his clan had migrated from the regions south of the delta of the river Don, and all the way to Eastern Sweden, where he'd established a kingdom whose descendants spread and finally came to be kings in most of the small kingdoms of the Norwegian-Swedish peninsule.

Most "serious" historians ridiculed this theory when it was published, and Heyerdahl, who was a kind of a national hero in Norway and other parts of the world, died as a man bereft of his honour, while excavating what he claimed to be pyramids in the Canary Islands.

Personally, I have at least some faith in Heyerdahl's theories, and that belief was further strengthened when one of Heyerdahl's hardest critics actually admitted that they could have been too harsh and severe in their attempts to discredit the theory.
Quote:
Now I guess we should see terje with a horned helmet and bear skins...

Haha...
Luckily, I don't have a bunad*, so you won't get to see me all dressed up like Hayk in that picture...


*bunad = the "traditional" Norwegian folk-costume. I don't know how long it's been a "folk-costume", but I have reasons to suspect that this is pretty much a myth constructed by nationalists in the late 19th century, during the struggle for independence from Sweden.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted May 25, 2005 04:07 AM

Terje, werent the Eddas originally written in Iceland? But then again, werent the Icelandians originally Norse? For all I know, they are bunch of inbred Scandinavian gang, who throw awesome parties all "night" long.

Anyway, i'd like if more people would post stuff here. Where're the native-american, baltic inputs? I'd also like to see some Irish. Asmo, Peacemaker, lich_King?
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted May 25, 2005 04:18 AM
Edited By: Consis on 24 May 2005

Um Actually

I'm quite certain you all don't want to hear about wild western shootouts, spittoons, drunken brawls, or the kind of heat waves one experiences in the desserts of west Texas. "Y'all" ... *cough*... you all probably have seen everything relevant in the movies at some point or another. Where Peacemaker's story ends, mine begins, understand? My bloody roots is filled with ignorance, racism, cold-blooded killers, horses, "Chivatos", and lots and lots of illegal spirits of the distilling kind. It's not pretty. It really only takes one western movie to show what it was like. And if you've seen one, you seen em all.
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DoddTheSlayer
DoddTheSlayer


Promising
Famous Hero
Banned from opening threads
posted May 25, 2005 04:37 AM

Yes that would be great Consis. Bearing in mind that Private Hudson has done Billy The Kid in his "articles of education" thread
But how about Butch Cassidy and Sundance. OR the Daltan gang and their shootout with Wyat Earp and Doc Holiday.

Would be interesting to know how much is real and how much distorted by holywood.
They there is too many great tales to list that have been the subject of many films.

Pick one and go for it.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted May 25, 2005 04:45 AM

If we're talking bloody roots, I assure you Eastern Europe has a lot more material to write about than US. Still, its not the blood we're after, but the roots, i'd say. Anything that deals with folklore, whether be it literature, music, crafts or whatever, can call this thread home.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted May 25, 2005 07:50 AM

Real/Fiction:

Quote:
Butch Cassidy and Sundance. OR the Daltan gang and their shootout with Wyat Earp and Doc Holiday.

~The shootout was real but inflated for sensationalization of the story. The exact details of the shootout are actually a thing of much debate in the town outside of the historic "O.K. coral" location. Wyat Earp and Doc holiday were as real as the characters in the movie. But don't get confused with one-sided story-telling either. Wyatt Earp wasn't as much of a friend as he is made out to be. I think the thought of his own personal gain was constantly on his mind.

~Butch Cassidy and Sundance were circus performers; nothing more.

~Dalton gang was a group of thugs looking for acclaim with the local westerners. It was really quite common for some poorly western uneducated boys to grow up thinking their only lot in life was to gain fortune through teenaged lawlessness. It's never really gone away. The same concept applies to teenage gangs of today. This very disturbing trend began with the creation of the hand pistol or colt revolver. After the civil war just about every family had at least one. Because of the ease with which the gun is used, it quickly gained favor with the lawless youths looking for passionate rise to pathetic fame and fictional glory. It was the first time in the history of humankind that teenagers became empowered by holding handheld small fire arms. And equally right was the new significance and importance of a more weary civilian police force because of this new empowered group of youths. They weren't nearly as wise in the use of deadly force but most certainly respected and feared as their earlier and more elderly historic heroes might have been.

Folklore from my area is plain old western nonsense. There's the tale of Pecos Bill, Geronimo, Running Bull, the Alamo, "mountain oysters", "snipe hunting", "turtling in", and many more. Our most recognizable folk dance is called the "2-step". It's a barn dance invented by some drunken cowboy.
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted May 25, 2005 07:21 PM

Quote:
Terje, werent the Eddas originally written in Iceland? But then again, werent the Icelandians originally Norse? For all I know, they are bunch of inbred Scandinavian gang, who throw awesome parties all "night" long.

True, both the Eddas and the Sagas were written in Iceland, most of them by the sage Snorre (English: Snorri, for some reason ) Sturlason. But he also spent time at the court of the Norwegian king in Trondheim (or, as it was called back then, Nidaros), the city I'm currently living in.

As for the ethnicity of the Icelandic people, they're mostly Norwegians who emigrated in the time between 900 and 1200, or so. Many of them were Norwegians who had been outlawed, and who escaped to Iceland to begin new lifes. There's a period in the Norwegian-Icelandic history that's called the "landnåmstid" (think German: Land = land, nåm = nehmen = "grabbing" or taking, tid = time/era), when Norwegians packed up their longships and sailed to Iceland to grab some of the unowned property (ulike American land some 5-700 years later, this land was truly unowned). On their way there, they might have stopped in Ireland, to bunk up some more food, steal some good looking Irish gals for wives, and some monks and kids to use as thralls. Ah, some jolly days those were.

Speaking of Irish, I think there were some Irish monks living there when the Norwegians first arrived... (Irish monks were like vermin: They were everywhere. )
____________
"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted May 25, 2005 09:40 PM
Edited By: Consis on 25 May 2005

Speaking of Iceland . . . .

I recall reading an article, very recently, that the Gulf stream is very close to shifting or dying or something along those lines. I remember it said this would cause a major shift in climate for England/Ireland/Iceland making the climate more close to that of Siberia.

It sort of shocked me but then I found comfort in the knowledge that today's domestic technology/architecture/science achievments are quite good for withstanding extreme climes. I think people might live comfortably and capably.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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