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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: More on Mohammed and the freedom of speech issue
Thread: More on Mohammed and the freedom of speech issue This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT»
Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted February 06, 2006 10:47 PM
Edited by Russ on 6 Feb 2006

More on Mohammed and the freedom of speech issue

For anyone still interested in this - read this article. I couldn't have said it better myself.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-2025511_1,00.html

Edit: In Russia we have a saying which can be translated somehow like this "Don't jump on the spear" (i.e. if you know for sure that the consequences of your action won't lead to anything good, then don't do it.)

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted February 06, 2006 11:15 PM

Its interesting that the muslim ogranisation from denmark added 3 more picture (that were grossly worse) when they did their tour of the arab world. Its fairly plain that there are leaders that want this violence. Which kinda sucks.

If it comes to what is more right - publishing those 12 pictures or burning down embassies and rioting, for me, that choice isn't too difficult.

It would of course be better if they hadn't published the pictures, and if the muslim world was more tolerant in general to these kind of things, and if communication was more favoured than violence.


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Lady_Milena
Lady_Milena


Honorable
Known Hero
Grannie Sweet Cheeks
posted February 07, 2006 01:16 AM

My thoughts on the issue

DISCLAIMER:

I try to avoid strong and harsh words. Please, take no offense. It's only the way I feel and alas, as Sir Francis Bacon said, words very poorly reflect the truth.

=======================================================

We have a saying here, "if you are afraid of bears, you don't go in the woods". Those who posted the pictures must have been *perfectly* aware it wouldn't go unnoticed by Muslim people.

If I have to be fair, were I Muslim, I'd feel extreme indignation in the least. I understand why they think of it as sacrilege. And I totally agree with that. I myself as a non-Muslim think it's disgusting. How do you think would a devout, practising Catholic feel about offensive pictures involving the Pope or Jesus? I avoid being graphically explicit here but I'm sure your imagination can play.

You can start calling me names now but I harbour very very deep respect for the Muslim. I wrote a book on the harem of a real Ottoman sultan and because of it I had to do a very thorough research on the history and principles of Islam. I found some very impressive facts that perhaps have been already discussed in HC.

One of those things that makes Islam different than Christianity is that it lacks humility and humbleness. Islam preaches that a slap on the cheek must be returned, lightly, but if slapped again, the retaliation should be just as hard. Knowing this, knowing that there are bears in the woods, why do you go there in the first place.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think violence resolves anything. On the other hand, if they mocked and ridiculed something I hold very near and dear, I'll want to do something - anything - to retaliate, otherwise the slaps will keep on going.

I think posting new pictures is folly. It's like adding gas to fire. If you don't like being slapped back, why do you keep on slapping?

I only wish the publishers of the pictures would offer apologies to those offended and the Muslim would stop the violence.

Ah dreams, sweet dreams.
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Shiva
Shiva


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 07, 2006 01:36 AM
Edited by Shiva on 6 Feb 2006

I'm sure many people were offended by the cartoons. The
response, on the otherhand, is way far out of proportion.
Calling for death, assasination and burning embassies is
not the reaction of a peaceful religion. Not to mention
things like this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1704032,00.html

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted February 07, 2006 02:23 AM

I Don't Even Care . . .

Islamic law does not traverse or delineate my country's laws. Here we have freedom of speech and so many such cartoons exist. I am so confused because these kinds of cartoons have been in existence in U.S. for a very long time. In fact we have many cartoons making fun of every single one of our presidents, all religious icons, and every significant historical figure dating back to the Benjamin Franklin.

Cartoons are a form of artistic expression in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't hold any government responsible for cartoons that being drawn within its borders.

Restricting the drawing of the Islamic prophet/founder Mohammed seems to be a religious edic. My country has no law that allows any such nation-wide religious edics. Therefore this law has no meaning for me. I suppose it could be enforced in a private setting.

I really dont see anything coming of this anger related to the cartoon. I consider it yet another reason for religious fundamentalists to rally other extremists to try and make war where they can. They want to be heard and given global recognition but no serious government would allow them to gain any real power.

I feel that Turkey is the best example of this. They have a large muslim population but the country does not act like other arabic muslim countrys. I think other countrys would do well to take lessons from them. Yes, it's important to recognize when someone does something wrong but it's not enough to try and wage war over.
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panduwana
panduwana


Adventuring Hero
posted February 07, 2006 06:02 AM

The Academy believe in no God and make fun with the Dragons.
The Haven fully believe, even peasants will enter the wars to defend their faith.

Now that they're allied, ain't that magic?
Heroes is always about fantasy...

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Trogdor
Trogdor


Legendary Hero
Words in a custom title
posted February 07, 2006 06:17 AM

Quote:
I feel that Turkey is the best example of this. They have a large muslim population but the country does not act like other arabic muslim countrys. I think other countrys would do well to take lessons from them. Yes, it's important to recognize when someone does something wrong but it's not enough to try and wage war over.

I agree. Most of these Muslim countries have gone to the extremist route and the trouble has started there. Even worse is that white extremists could start bashing a few more Muslims just for the sake of publicity.
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted February 07, 2006 01:11 PM
Edited by terje_the_mad_wizard on 7 Feb 2006

Quote:
I feel that Turkey is the best example of this. They have a large muslim population but the country does not act like other arabic muslim countrys. I think other countrys would do well to take lessons from them.

Basically, the only thing that keeps Turkey secularized, is its army. Enlighten me, how is that supposed to serve as a positive example to others?


As for the caricatures themselves, I can only repeat the words of people more experienced and learned than me:
"Ask yourself the following: Had liberal newspapersall over Europe reacted as they do today, if this was about drawings depicting, as an example, reverend Jesse Jackson as "little black Sambo"? Or if the drawings were of a Jew  with a hooked nose, counting money? Would the newspapers have stormed forth to print this, or would they have condemned it as racism?"
- John Rees (freely translated from Norwegian).


As for these caricatures and their relationship to freedom of expression...
Well, I hardly see them as "expressions"; they're meant solely as a provocation. I mean, they're claiming that this is "legitimate criticism" of Islam. Er, how constructive (to me, the only "legitimate criticism" is contructive criticism) is it to portrait all Muslims as terrorists? It's like portraying all ISraelis as nationalistic zionists, or all Americans as greedy imperialists, or all Frenchmen as cowardly weaklings.

It has no basis in reality.



When it comes the the embassy-burnings, I blame the givernment of Syria for that. If they had really wanted to stop the protestors, they'd sent their anti-rioting police - the very same police force which in 1982 massacred between 10.000 and 20.000 people during a demonstration against the government.
But how would it look, if they'd massacred their own citizens in order to save a building owned by blasphemous infidels? Islamists make up the main opposition in practically every country in the Muslim world, and in countries such as Egypt, Syria, and others, only brute force and repression are holding them down and out of the govenrment quarters. Even secular dictators have to pay lip service to religion every once in a while, to keep the revolutionaries at bay...

And if we're playing the blame game, let's not forget the Danish neo-nazis, who spread rumours about burning the Quaran in Copenhagen's town square.

Constructive? I think not...


Thank God (whichever one you'd like) that at least some politicians and religious leaders remember how to practice Realpolitik - how to compromise, how to bend rather than break - rather than sticking to abstract liberties and lofty ideals, and letting their citizens pay the butcher's bill...

Oh well. Nasty little topic, this one. Lots of thorns and unintended consequences.
____________
"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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Shiva
Shiva


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 07, 2006 01:45 PM
Edited by Shiva on 7 Feb 2006

Yes, a nasty topic. I have had a free speech discussion
with a few people, I even remember when the topic came up
here regarding Stiven's ban. This is all about the same
thing: does free speech mean one can say anything at any
time. I would say, no it doesn't. If you haven't any power
to judge who you are talking to then you are in big
trouble. When in Harlem, don't go around using the "N"
word.

Publishing these cartoons was a deliberate
provocation. What it evoked as a  response is ugly. It
brought out the same sort of thinking that issued a fatwa
on Salman Rushdie, which is a case where I believe the
person had the  right to say what he wanted. Each case is
different, but for me, it comes down to this:

No words are provocation enough to issue death threats and
cause violent demonstrations. I have a few words for the Islamic
world...grow up. This is what the Inquisition did 500
years ago, and has no place in the present day world.
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted February 07, 2006 03:22 PM

Quote:
No words are provocation enough to issue death threats and cause violent demonstrations.

I think I missed something in my previous post, so here it is: I wholeheartedly agree with Shiva here.

This is one of those cases where both parties are behaving like morons, if you'll excuse me for saying so.
____________
"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.

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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted February 07, 2006 04:12 PM

Quote:
Islamic law does not traverse or delineate my country's laws. Here we have freedom of speech and so many such cartoons exist. I am so confused because these kinds of cartoons have been in existence in U.S. for a very long time. In fact we have many cartoons making fun of every single one of our presidents, all religious icons, and every significant historical figure dating back to the Benjamin Franklin.
Consis, no offense, but do you actually belive what you are saying? If you do, then you may want to consider opening your eyes and looking around once in a while.
If there is one country that lacks the freedom of speech - that is US. FFS, you aren't allowed to say that someone is black. You have to use the word "African American". If you say something that isn't allowed to be said, you'll get sued or even jailed. Did you know that in some schools in USA kids get punished for sending each other Christmas cards because a certain "initiative group" doesn't like Christianity and because of that it threatened the school's principal to sue the school? Did you know that teaching certain things such as Darwin's theory is illegal in some places in USA? Did you know that some books are removed from the libraries because of the censors? As for this particular topic - look at the last episode of South Park where they made fun of Virgin Mary and the Pope. Fox network got sued and had to take it off the air. Many Christians got pissed off. Have you seen any other channel show this cartoon because they think that forcing Fox to appologize and to remove it violates the freedom of speech? Have you seen half of Europe show this cartoon? This is extreme hypocricy when you censor one cartoon making fun of YOUR religion, yet you consider mocking the other religion perfectly fine and call it "freedom of speech".
If the original publisher apologized like the Fox did and removed the cartoon, there wouldn't be such an outrage, however when the Europe did what it did it clearly threw a challenge at Islam. Now they look surprised because their challenge hit its target and caused a retaliation. "Oh, wow, who could see THAT coming!!!"

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted February 07, 2006 05:40 PM

In a way it is about power.

Religious groups and other people want the power do decide what others can or cannot say. That is wrong. People should be free to say alot of things, including that which violates religious rules.

If we accept a world were special groups of people get to decide what other people can say and do, because they get upset if people dont obey them, then we lose freedom and human rights.

In a choice between religious rules and freedom, freedom is always the best choice.

The real problem is that there are so many violent people in the world. They should learn to talk about their problems instead.

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SirDunco
SirDunco


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 07, 2006 08:57 PM

Quote:
DISCLAIMER:

I try to avoid strong and harsh words. Please, take no offense. It's only the way I feel and alas, as Sir Francis Bacon said, words very poorly reflect the truth.

=======================================================

We have a saying here, "if you are afraid of bears, you don't go in the woods". Those who posted the pictures must have been *perfectly* aware it wouldn't go unnoticed by Muslim people.

If I have to be fair, were I Muslim, I'd feel extreme indignation in the least. I understand why they think of it as sacrilege. And I totally agree with that. I myself as a non-Muslim think it's disgusting. How do you think would a devout, practising Catholic feel about offensive pictures involving the Pope or Jesus? I avoid being graphically explicit here but I'm sure your imagination can play.

You can start calling me names now but I harbour very very deep respect for the Muslim. I wrote a book on the harem of a real Ottoman sultan and because of it I had to do a very thorough research on the history and principles of Islam. I found some very impressive facts that perhaps have been already discussed in HC.

One of those things that makes Islam different than Christianity is that it lacks humility and humbleness. Islam preaches that a slap on the cheek must be returned, lightly, but if slapped again, the retaliation should be just as hard. Knowing this, knowing that there are bears in the woods, why do you go there in the first place.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think violence resolves anything. On the other hand, if they mocked and ridiculed something I hold very near and dear, I'll want to do something - anything - to retaliate, otherwise the slaps will keep on going.

I think posting new pictures is folly. It's like adding gas to fire. If you don't like being slapped back, why do you keep on slapping?

I only wish the publishers of the pictures would offer apologies to those offended and the Muslim would stop the violence.

Ah dreams, sweet dreams.



Milena I have to give you a big thanks for stating my point.
I completely agree with everything written above

The cartoons published were no other then an attack at the relegion of Islam. This crossed the famous line between "your freedom and someone elses freedom".

And if you want to go ahead with the grand belief of freedom of speech, in this case, then those who support it shoudl also support the idea of a certain Iranian Newspaper which began a Cartoon Contest on the best cartoon about the Holocaust. It is the same issue, that "your freedom ends where someone elses begins."

You cannot hide behind it just because you are too stuborn to addmit your wrong and appologise.
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Lady_Milena
Lady_Milena


Honorable
Known Hero
Grannie Sweet Cheeks
posted February 07, 2006 11:38 PM

I actually want to elaborate on the topic

Consis, indeed that's a response triggered by your words.

And a DISCLAIMER: take no offense. I don't mean to flame, attack or otherwise start a fire. It's my opinion and feel free to disagree with it as long as you don't take it personally.

Consis, there is a difference between freedom of speech and being politically correct. Some things are matter of common sense rather than right.

Say, you could go down to a little town in southern Texas and cry out loud how all rednecks must die, that all baptists must burn in hell and that gay people should be praised. You're free to do it but WOULD you? Or would you go up in Utah and start bragging in the middle of the street you seduce Mormon minors and dump em?

I don't think so.

Freedom of speech is one thing, stupidity - another.

Don't point the finger at me for being a foreigner and not being nationally proud of the US. I have never denied I have the heart of a yankee but I do disagree with a lot of what the government does. Not that I don't understand it, I just think it's totally wrong. It was none of America's business to tell the Iraqi that Saddam is not the right ruler for them and bomb the country. Don't tell me about the laws in your country and others not breaking them.

And yes, I was going to mention South Park myself but I bit my tongue and abstained. I haven't seen it myself but I'm listened to the soundtracks to it and I could imagine why it's banned. Do you know what South Park is about? Hell, I find it terribly funny! Especially the farting part. But I'm tactlful enough to claim the Fifth and give up my right to express my thoughts, lest I find myself killed in a dark alley.

And last, if you want people to respect you, you have to respect THEM. I think it was great disrespect to what so many people hold so near and dear. I'm sure a lot of Catholics would want em Muslim all dead if Iraq publically posts pictures of the Pope in front of Saddam in a ... let's say suggestive pose. I try to avoid more graphical explaination cause there are children reading these forums.

My 2 c
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted February 08, 2006 03:55 PM
Edited by Consis on 8 Feb 2006

Hehe . . .

Nah I took no offence. I'm simply saying that these people protesting the cartoons will find no sympathy with me. If my country invades yours then that is plenty justifiable reason to declare war on us . . . !HOWEVER! . . . if someone draws a tasteless inconsiderate childlike cartoon (most appropriately located on the side of a latrine divider wall in some filthy gas station) depicting your most revered religious icon in less-than-favorable light then I'd advise you not to ever visit any of our elementary and junior high schools at lunchtime.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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Nebuka
Nebuka


Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
posted February 08, 2006 04:45 PM

Quote:
And if you want to go ahead with the grand belief of freedom of speech, in this case, then those who support it shoudl also support the idea of a certain Iranian Newspaper which began a Cartoon Contest on the best cartoon about the Holocaust. It is the same issue, that "your freedom ends where someone elses begins."


That's bull.

I have every right not to support the *idea* of Iranian Cartoon Contest, but to support their *right* to have it.

Two different things.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted February 08, 2006 05:30 PM

Also . . .

Declaring the holocaust was a myth should be debated here as well. This is the place where we are debating over controversial concepts too. The cartoon did not physically do harm to anyone. People are physically harming other people over the concept of what they think the cartoon represents to them. I am also suggesting that Jews are not being physically harmed by the act of declaring the holocaust a myth. However this statement might give broad support to Ba'athist-type philosophy. That is of course to unite the Muslim world under anti-western and anti-Semitic pretenses; from the western-most top of Africa to the eastern-most reaches of Pakistan.

I feel like this is what we're talking about here. I feel like we're talking about some deranged form of global Islamic nationalism.
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SirDunco
SirDunco


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 08, 2006 09:04 PM

I don't belive that the cartoons are to be about declaring the Holocaust a myth. I belive that they are just to be built to show a point. That eventhough you have the freedom of speech when you offend a wide community of people, it crosses a certain line of other people's freedom.
Just like the cartoons in Denmark did...
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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted February 08, 2006 09:13 PM

A good example of freedom of speech would be going to Harlem and saying "I hate f*****g N*****s!!!" over and over. All you would be doing would be expressing your personal opinion. However, who is stupid enough to actually use the freedom of speech right in that way?

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Shiva
Shiva


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 08, 2006 11:06 PM

Quote:
I don't belive that the cartoons are to be about declaring the Holocaust a myth. I belive that they are just to be built to show a point. That eventhough you have the freedom of speech when you offend a wide community of people, it crosses a certain line of other people's freedom.
Just like the cartoons in Denmark did...



Iran is holding a conference to discuss if the holocaust
actually happened. Since what happened during WWll is the
basis for Israel being established, they hope to declare
its all a fraud, thus negating any moral validity. I have
no doubt they will arrive at the conclusion they want to,
in whatever bogus manner they choose. I also have no doubt
that the Zionists exploited whatever they could to get
what they wanted.

My argument for Israel is not based on any high road of
morality, but simply that Israel now exists, and should
continue as it is, because it is there. I have read a fair bit of stuff on the internet from conspiracy sites
concerning what they call "The Holocaust Myth". I have no
doubt that something happened since I know people with
numbers tatooed on their arms. Whether or not 6,000,000 or 10 Jews died is irrelevant to me. Whether 1,000,000
gypsies or 2 died is irrelevant. That fact remains people
were rounded up for some evil design and put into camps.


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