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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -STRONGHOLD-
Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -STRONGHOLD- [ This thread is 3 pages long: (1) 2 3 ]
angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted March 03, 2006 02:29 PM

Heroes 3 Town Rating -STRONGHOLD-

Everyone is invited to share his own opinion about every town in Heroes 3. Try to use these topics as order for your postings:

- Advantages, Disadvantages
- Best creature(s), with explanation why, e.g tactical usefullness
- Worst creature(s), with explanation why, e.g too low stats..
- Special buildings
- Building order (good, too slow....etc..)
- Hero classes (donīt refer these classes ONLY to this specific town, but perhaps they are more usefull with other towns)
- Good / Bad on what kind of maps
- OWN subjective rank in a townranking, from 1st (best) to 9th (worst)

Letīs collect as much opinions as possible, to finally find the best possible "review" of every town.
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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted March 06, 2006 06:34 AM bonus applied.
Edited by angelito on 6 Mar 2006

Stronghold:

Advantages: Barbarians are the best heroclass in the game, extremly powerfull lvl 7 unit, only weak unit is goblins, low cost, the building order allows you to build lvl 7 units and castle week 1, if possible double build works very well.

Disadvantages: Fastest unit isnt very fast, low defence, the creatures special abilities arnt very usefull overall and niether is the special buildings.

Best creature(s): Ancient behemoths by far deal the most damage of all lvl 7 cretures due to their 80% defence reduction, especially late in the game where the herostats grow higher. 300 hp makes them pretty hard to kill allthough their defence isnt very high.

Wolf raiders also deal nice damage due to their 2 strikes and high numbers. They die somewhat easily but if you play well you can avoid losing them against the map.

T-birds have high speed for a lvl 5 unit and decent hp which make them very usefull fighting the map.

Worst creature(s): Goblins are pretty weak but late in the game lvl 1 units dont matter much anyway.

Besides that stronghold dosent really have any weak units. The rest of the units have weak sides and strong sides. Orcs are slow but they shoot and have decent hp. Ogres are slow too but have very high hp and attack. Cyclops often come in low numbers due to the building order and have low hp but they shoot very well.

Special buildings: Plus 1 attack is allways nice but dosent make much diffrence. Besides that the rest of the special buildings are normally not worth build in a normal online game.

Building order: The building order allows you to build lvl 7 units and castle week 1 which is a huge advantage. In most games you wont build ogres and cyclops week 1 but week 2 which is ok. You only need crystal, wood and ore so you can trade everything else away which compensates for the fact that you need alot of crystal wood and ore. Buildings and units are very cheap goldwise.

Heroes: Barbarians are the best heroclass in the game, especially crag hack is brutale. What makes them the best heroclass:

1. They start with 4 attack and often gets attack as primary skill. This is important due to the way you fight the map. In generel you make sure that you hit the enemy first and avoid getting hit yourself. With high attack you take out the enemy and avoid retaliation. You take skills like offence and armor. The higher attack you have the more you gain from offence and the less defence you have the more you gain from armor. Therefore attack is better than defence in generel. (Ofcourse you have a problem if you have to fight units who are faster than you.)

2. They have the higest chance of developing the 2nd skills you want. Stronghold (and any other town) needs air and earth for mass haste and slow and barbarians have a 38% chance of getting both earth and air when they are offered magic. And they cant get water!!! which is a hugh advantage. Besides the magic they have the best chances of getting the combination log, pf, off, armor and tactics which are the skills you want.

Area: Strongholds starting area (rough) is not as rich as grass but still a good area. You have a high chance of getting some decent arts in wagons and from corps. You have a high chance of getting a stabel, trading post and magic spring which are all very nice to have. On the downside you cant get crypts and the terrain penalty is anoying.

Fights: Strongholds main problem is lack of speed. Every time you have to fight something with speed 12+ you have a problem and in endfight you are vunereble to a masshaste. On the other hand if your opponent cant punish you for your low speed you can cast mass haste and all your units will now move and you can do some great damage that often will be irreparable. Stronghold is especially effective against rampart because they can only reach with 4 units (and one shooter) after a masshaste. Same goes for castle.

Due to the topspeed and low cost stronghold is best on poor maps and maps where you dont have to fight big groops of lvl 7 creatures.

I personally like stronghold and will rank them as 4th after necro, flux and castle.



Edit by angelito

Same quality as Xarfaxs post in the Castle thread. Very nice summary, not too much to add.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted March 06, 2006 06:44 AM

To legendolator. Here is an event for you.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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Arangar
Arangar


Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
posted March 06, 2006 09:05 AM

just a thought..

Maretti's post is an interesting read, but I was wondering if perhaps the writers of the guides could add what "rules" and conditions these guides apply for, and what types of maps?

I know enough myself, just thought that it would be a nice addition. This way a single player "noob" could give his points of view without getting bashed by online veterans - players that play with certain rule sets and certain map types.

From what I've heard so far, "some" (not pointing fingers) online h3 players hide behind rules to prevent that their strategies will be "countered", and to prevent them from having to actually adapt. How can an offline player know about these restrictions ? Correct - he cannot. So his points can still apply, just not for the typical restricted environment some people are used to. Have you ever thought about why might heroes are favored? Because the threat of magic heroes have been eliminated through the abuse of the word "honor".

Just my 2cp. Sorry for the off-topic parts
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Arangar
Norwegian viking
ranger of the north

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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted March 06, 2006 11:40 AM
Edited by Russ on 6 Mar 2006

The threat of the magic heroes was eliminated by the game developers. Magic heroes are much harder to fight the map with and their skills are horrible. Say, you have Solmyr (which many new players consider good). He can win ONE fight with his chain lightning. That's it. After that he is useless until he recharges his mana somewhere.
Now - lets look at Crag Hack. He can have as many fights as he wants and in ALL of them he will have AT LEAST 40% damage bonus (20% from 4 attack and 20% from advanced offense that he started with).
Now - say, you are taking a dragon utopia or fighting dragons. What can a magic hero do? NOTHING.
So, might heroes will level up faster and in the end they will have higher levels and more artifacts, which could mean that they might have MORE spellpower/mana than the magic heroes! I hope this doesn't surprise you, but the might heroes can cast spells too!
As if that wasn't enough, there are 2 artifacts in this game that make magic heroes 100% useless. They are rechanter's cloak and the orb of inhibition (AKA the red orb).
I do agree that many veterans with less than the average skill ban level 4 spell specialists as well as some combat spells out of fear of getting their Ivor's elves killed by the spells, but if you are playing someone who knows what they are doing, they'll let you chose any of those level 4 spell specialists and cast any spells you want. Even Deemer (who I consider much more powerful than any of his counterparts because of his high spell power and mana vortex) will most likely lose to a good might hero like Crag Hack if they meet mid-week 2 or later.
Low level mass spells like mass haste (+6 movement to all units), mass shield (30% less damage from melee attacks), mass slow (enemy's speed is halved), bless (adds more than 30-40% damage in some cases), blind (no explanation needed), etc will beat magic heroes, since magic heroes will either cast their damage spells and leave the mass spells uncountered, or counter the mass spells, in which case they will lose for sure because the battle will come down to might skills and stats.

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grendal
grendal


Adventuring Hero
posted March 06, 2006 01:23 PM
Edited by grendal on 6 Mar 2006

What made spell casters obsolete imo is the banning of dd and fly.  They are game breakers after all .  Playing a no rules game brings the magic heroes back in play.

I love stronghold as well, but the speed factor is just too much of a penalty imo. (same with tower and fortress).  Seldom do i find you can get first attack with your units.  The only time i beat Rock_bul and Midnight (many losses to them ), they both played stronghold.  The end fight wasnt really even close and the heroes were very comparable.

Not having clops (which is very hard to get in numbers) is a big disadvantage.  Using mass haste and taking out wolf raiders and the birds (also preventing orcs from shooting) first round pretty much leaves only ancients and orges (tanks).  Second round blind the ancients and attack others.  Eventually you will be left attacking the ancients then blind  before they get a turn. Or blind first then defend, cast slow next round.  The fight is over.

I key to defeating this town type is knowing air is prolly the most important skill to get. Knowing this starting the game shouldnt make it difficult most games. If you cant get mass haste, you most certainly will be in trouble (mass prayer might help as well)

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted March 06, 2006 05:23 PM

I agree that they have a weakness against blind on the ancients both round 1 and 2.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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Arangar
Arangar


Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
posted March 07, 2006 08:57 AM

A few points:
-map size & difficulty & length of game
-banned spells
-hit&run
-creature growth

I agree with all you are saying Russ, it all applies - to Toh online maps & rules

So why not specify these, for the single players to see -> you'll remove the added tosses like in the Friend of Gunnar thread


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Arangar
Norwegian viking
ranger of the north

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted March 07, 2006 09:00 AM
Edited by angelito on 7 Mar 2006

I donīt think we need to specify any rules or tournaments, coz these "reviews" will prolly be placed on the AoH site.
All descriptions here should not contain any "typical" rules. Just pure facts.
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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted March 07, 2006 02:35 PM
Edited by Russ on 7 Mar 2006

Quote:
What made spell casters obsolete imo is the banning of dd and fly. They are game breakers after all . Playing a no rules game brings the magic heroes back in play.
Who told you that might heroes can't cast DD and fly??? Might heroes can get wisdom on level 6 if they don't get it earlier. The only difference is that they'll get DD and fly FASTER than magic heroes because they can get the recources required for the mage guild faster, or they'll just get an air book or the spellbinder's hat (in which case they won't even need wisdom).

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Russ
Russ


Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
posted March 07, 2006 02:55 PM
Edited by Russ on 14 Mar 2006

Quote:
A few points:
-map size & difficulty & length of game
-banned spells
-hit&run
-creature growth

I agree with all you are saying Russ, it all applies - to Toh online maps & rules
It looks like you've missed the most important point I was trying to make, which is: NO MATTER WHAT THE RULES ARE - MIGHT WILL USUALLY WIN, unless, of course you make a ridiculous map or template specifically designed for magic heroes (but those can be used to prove anything, so lets not talk about that).
There is only one exception to that rule: Some magic heroes like Ciele (50% more damage from magic arrow), Deemer, Solmyr or Aislynn will win in games that last less than about 10-15 days. The other magic heroes stop being useful on week 2 day 1 since their biggest spell will most likely be non-expert lightning, which will not be enough to kill an entire week 2 day 1 army.
What I said applies to any TOH random template as well as any of the original 3DO random templates.
The only rule I can think of that puts might heroes in disadvantage is hit&run, but I think it depends more on the creature speed than on the hero type. Say, you are trying to do h&r with Solmyr and master genies. What if your opponent is a might hero with tactics and faster troops?

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grendal
grendal


Adventuring Hero
posted March 07, 2006 03:37 PM
Edited by grendal on 7 Mar 2006

Quote:
Quote:
What made spell casters obsolete imo is the banning of dd and fly. They are game breakers after all . Playing a no rules game brings the magic heroes back in play.
Who told you that might heroes can't cast DD and fly??? Might heroes can get wisdom on level 6 if they don't get it earlier. The only difference is that they'll get DD and fly FASTER than magic heroes because they can get the recources required for the mage guild faster, or they'll just get an air book or the spellbinder's hat (in which case they won't even need wisdom).



You sound as if building a spell caster is feable.   They can do many of the same battles a might hero does in the course of a game.  Developing one is fairly fast and easy.  The big hinderance to spell casters is the fight at the end.

Lets see a might hero with 40 knowledge cast dd 4 times a turn.  Often times a might hero in a final battle only has 7ish knowledge and thats at the end of the game.

Ive played enough AI games to know that its much easier and quicker clearing a map with a spell caster and dd than a might hero would be able to.  
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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted March 07, 2006 05:00 PM

You simply can't afford to build magic guilds in time to be able to use your magic hero effectively.

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grendal
grendal


Adventuring Hero
posted March 07, 2006 05:15 PM
Edited by grendal on 7 Mar 2006

If u can get level 2 mage guild to buy drags week 2 and level 3 mage guild week 3 for goldies or blackies, its not a stretch to be able to get level 5 mage in time.   In fact ignoring creature upgrades at level 5 can be reached in week 3.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying a spell caster will win.  All i said was spell casters wouldnt be obsolete if dd and fly were not banned.  Ive played some online games where they werent banned and dd definately was part of some of the games.

Once i magic hero has dd and expert air.  Protecting the castle isnt necessary.  A might hero can take yours but on day 7 he cant protect his and yours.  With 4 dds you can take whichever one he doesnt guard.  

Also it changes the "i can go out and attack anything and still get back in time with chaining to defend my home castle" of a might hero.  For example after building creature structures week 1, a magic caster could ignore anymore builds and go for a mage guild and have it week 2.  Then if dd is gotten they could dd and take a might heroes town without a fight.

The point is this changes the whole dynamics of the game.  A person isnt any longer constrained to the methodical build sequence of the present form of the game
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Life is full of frustrations, heroes should help release it!

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Zsa
Zsa


Famous Hero
posted March 07, 2006 06:09 PM

Well you could play with fly and dd but certain rules need to be in place. I do play with a friend of mine with Fly and DD but there are certain things that safeguard these powerful spells:

1. You can't get them from scrolls on the map
2. We usually don't play closed templates like Blockbuster or Jebus
3. Fight PLACED guards (ie if i see HHOE guarded by pack of angels i can't use fly to just take it, i have to fight the guards before that).
4. Don't play maps littered with dragon utopias or relics

And Russ, there's no denying that ToH is geared towards might heroes.

1. H&R is banned almost 100% of the time
2. Fly DD always banned
3. Type of maps/templates played on toh are usually closed style with usually with Big guards that lead to treasure area.

I won't argue that magic heroes are better that might heroes because that is simply not true. It is however undeniable that a lot of restrictions are placed into the game that limit magic casters. EVEN with all these restrictions, imagine if most toh games were played on Ring template instead of Jebus. Now you'd still probably have might heroes better than magic, but i guarantee you there wouldn't be as much disrespect and contempt towards magic heroes as is now in the community.

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grendal
grendal


Adventuring Hero
posted March 07, 2006 07:23 PM
Edited by grendal on 7 Mar 2006

Well said Zsa

Funny you would say bb and jebus as templates not played.  I was gonna use them as template examples of where a magic hero could have an extreme advantage

Blockbuster....  You can still do a normal build pattern and achieve mage guild level 5 in week four.  Or on some maps you can get level 5 in the second castle week 3.  Since most times the block between players isnt breeched til week 5, there is plenty of oportunity to dd into treasure area and get back.  Or dd into oppenents area and occupy his castle.  This also applies to extreme template

Jebus.... Its concievable to be able to build level 5 mage guild in a second castle week one.  Definately early week 2

I might hero has to deal with potentially being caught running with only his fastest creatures in his army.  Carrrying all or some of his regular army significantly reduces his movement range.

Again im not saying spell casters are better than might heroes.  I think might heroes will still win the majority of the time.   What i am saying is magic heroes will be used more often with some success

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Life is full of frustrations, heroes should help release it!

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Zsa
Zsa


Famous Hero
posted March 07, 2006 07:48 PM
Edited by Zsa on 7 Mar 2006

I'm not expert at playing blockbuster, and I don't know very well how to play it, but week 5 breaking the block is very late. When I played it i went for the block week 3 if I remember correctly.

That template is go for mass slow .

And no, open maps favour magic heroes more than closed ones.


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grendal
grendal


Adventuring Hero
posted March 07, 2006 08:07 PM

i have played most of my games on it and week 3 is very uncommon for a break.  Occasionally you will get lots of hydras or behemoths as a block but not very often (in my experience). More than likely its horde of downgraded drags or by week 4 a horde of AAs ADs phoenix, titans, ghosts.  Maybe some who understands the template making can comment on the value assigned to that block.  Im curious
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Life is full of frustrations, heroes should help release it!

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grendal
grendal


Adventuring Hero
posted March 07, 2006 08:42 PM

Was curious so i did a small test.  10 maps at 130 dif and strong monster

1............59 ghost drags
2............68 behemoths and 14 ancients
3............41 ADs as well as 30 blackies
4............68 hydras and 10 chaos
5............32 ADs
6............27 AAs
7............30 blackies
8............48 angels
9............35 titans
10...........57 devils there was a portal here and something on other side...dont know what it was


Some of these can be beaten week 3 i guess but being able to would require a very good game.  Week 4 is more likely to me.  Growth will of course make them more.  Unless you have speed faster than ADs i think 6 of them wont be taken til week 5.  If u have speed faster than ADs then i guess  3 would have to wait til week 5  

O
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Life is full of frustrations, heroes should help release it!

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Zsa
Zsa


Famous Hero
posted March 07, 2006 11:34 PM

errr, my bad, I thought you were referring to the desert blocks, I still didn't figure it out until you started listing only lvl 7 creatures . see my sig for more details

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"You sound like zsa who only plays the game on forums" - Russ

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