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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Haven Faction
Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Haven Faction [ This thread is 24 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 (6) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ]
Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted August 22, 2007 11:53 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 11:54, 22 Aug 2007.

you have paladins and (in ToTe) zealots to take care of dark. Besides, wizards don't start with auto-cleansing (which costs 20 mana btw and not everyone has supress light, plus you can take the very necessary perk called refined mana - knight only - which halves the cost, consequently doubling the knight's mana pool..)

And I don't see how is it possible to win with other factions on one castle maps (using your logic) if they don't get cleansing. 50% chance, plus half of the castles can't get it.

Haven is the most darkmagic-resistant faction (multiple means of cleansing), so I don't see a problem here

ANd even if he can cleanse a bit longer, wizard is still a weakling without summoning, arties and everything that makes him so good at academy.

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Tenaka
Tenaka


Famous Hero
Makes sense
posted August 22, 2007 12:11 PM
Edited by Tenaka at 12:12, 22 Aug 2007.

Quote:

ANd even if he can cleanse a bit longer, wizard is still a weakling without summoning, arties and everything that makes him so good at academy.


...But I take it you mean a wizard with haven troops? That makes summoning a bit unnecessary, as you don't need elementals/phoenixes to boost your might strength.

Quote:
Haven is the most darkmagic-resistant faction (multiple means of cleansing), so I don't see a problem here.




I believe academy beats it to it...Mages have got cleansing as well, and the library heightens the chance to get cleansing, right? Then there's also the seal of darkness skill, which doubles the mana cost for dark spells. Don't get me wrong, Haven can certainly resist dark magic pretty well, but Academy, that focuses more on magic, can definately cleanse more, faster (sorcery), and longer (tons of mana). Just mentioning.

Quote:
Besides, wizards don't start with auto-cleansing (which costs 20 mana btw and not everyone has supress light, plus you can take the very necessary perk called refined mana - knight only - which halves the cost, consequently doubling the knight's mana pool..)



Actually Galib starts out with cleansing. That's only one, but just so everyone knows. And wizard's can reach refined mana as well. It just has a lot higher requirements for them - Havez can reach it the most easily, btw -, and, well, it's not really necessary for them, as it's not too hard to reach intelligence and arcane training if they realy have a lack of knowledge.
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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted August 22, 2007 01:16 PM

Quote:

I believe academy beats it to it...Mages have got cleansing as well, and the library heightens the chance to get cleansing, right? Then there's also the seal of darkness skill, which doubles the mana cost for dark spells. Don't get me wrong, Haven can certainly resist dark magic pretty well, but Academy, that focuses more on magic, can definately cleanse more, faster (sorcery), and longer (tons of mana). Just mentioning.

The library never gives light or summoning spells. Also since the knight will usually cast mass cleansing himslef it does not matter because it's not affected by sorcery.
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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 22, 2007 05:10 PM

Quote:
you have paladins and (in ToTe) zealots to take care of dark. Besides, wizards don't start with auto-cleansing (which costs 20 mana btw and not everyone has supress light, plus you can take the very necessary perk called refined mana - knight only - which halves the cost, consequently doubling the knight's mana pool..)

But wizards can actually use spells(spellpower, knowledge, easy enlightement..) - they have no need to rely on their army. Knight without an army is nothing. Refined mana makes spells cheaper for CASTERS only NOT for your hero.

Quote:
And I don't see how is it possible to win with other factions on one castle maps (using your logic) if they don't get cleansing. 50% chance, plus half of the castles can't get it.

Because other heros can use spells. Look at a warlock.. he doesn't care much how effectively his army is fighting as long as it's not dead. Magic heroes wins the game mainly by their spellpower, knowledge and spells not by attack, defense and an army.

Quote:
Haven is the most darkmagic-resistant faction (multiple means of cleansing), so I don't see a problem here

That's late/mid game you are talking about.. And how thay are resistant? Some puppeted/blinded palas won't help. Knight are still very vulnerable compared to fortress(dwarven resistance) and sylvan(unicorns). Might heroes have only their army - if it fails, a might hero is dead. A no mana knight CAN'T protect his army even if he has zounds of paladins..

Quote:
ANd even if he can cleanse a bit longer, wizard is still a weakling without summoning, arties and everything that makes him so good at academy.

At least his army is fighting on his side And it's not about "cleansing a bit more". It's about using spellpower and knowlegde.
Early game -> spellpower+knowledge >> attack+defense
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Deathy
Deathy


Known Hero
Angels Galore
posted August 22, 2007 06:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Haven is the most darkmagic-resistant faction (multiple means of cleansing), so I don't see a problem here

That's late/mid game you are talking about.. And how thay are resistant? Some puppeted/blinded palas won't help. Knight are still very vulnerable compared to fortress(dwarven resistance) and sylvan(unicorns). Might heroes have only their army - if it fails, a might hero is dead. A no mana knight CAN'T protect his army even if he has zounds of paladins..




you seem to forget Lay Hands, good Haven players usually get two stacks of Paladins so Puppeting,Frenzying or Blinding them won't work because the other paladin stack will just use lay hands on the other stack. and with Paladins having 12 initiative and usually they have haste too, not even hero with Sorcery could Puppet twice before the other Paladin stack gets it's turn. this doesn't even include the possible hero intervene with Cleansing of his own. and with Zealots getting Cleansing in TotE, it gets only easier.

but of course this is mid/late game only, i can't see myself getting two stacks of paladins on the third week

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted August 23, 2007 03:52 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 04:01, 23 Aug 2007.

Quote:
But wizards can actually use spells(spellpower, knowledge, easy enlightement..) - they have no need to rely on their army. Knight without an army is nothing. Refined mana makes spells cheaper for CASTERS only NOT for your hero.


It's obvious they are good heroes, but the question is: are they actually better than varmachine specialist when stripped off their best spells (summoning, dest.) due to haven's limited guild? I think not, personally.

Quote:
Because other heros can use spells. Look at a warlock.. he doesn't care much how effectively his army is fighting as long as it's not dead. Magic heroes wins the game mainly by their spellpower, knowledge and spells not by attack, defense and an army.


Yes, warlock is a bomb, that's why I mainly play them, but don't forget that I actually need two or three fights to beat an endgame haven player (because I can cast like 1-2 spells before he trashes my whole army). Wizard is even worse here, despite the tricks he has in his sleeve.

Quote:
That's late/mid game you are talking about.. And how thay are resistant? Some puppeted/blinded palas won't help. Knight are still very vulnerable compared to fortress(dwarven resistance) and sylvan(unicorns). Might heroes have only their army - if it fails, a might hero is dead. A no mana knight CAN'T protect his army even if he has zounds of paladins..


A good knight always has some knowledge arties he picked when leveling, and he doesn't need to fear long fights, because there are no long fights. That's why I got thrashed extremely fast by endgame haven - his double stacks of palas, a stack of gryphs and angels acted before my hero and ohko-d 4 stacks, with 3 stacks left it didn't mattered that much if I have double blind of not. The units were artificed and I had exp enlightment, yet I still lost.

Quote:
At least his army is fighting on his side And it's not about "cleansing a bit more". It's about using spellpower and knowlegde.
Early game -> spellpower+knowledge >> attack+defense


I generally agree, but not with the last part: Deleb>spellpower+knowledge>>attack+def, THAT imo is the order

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 23, 2007 04:14 AM

Yes, it's knowlegde, spellpower and war machines that dominate early. Deleb is of course "a bit" different because of this fireball thing going on. Still, the ultimate rushing(and AI pwning) Deleb would look like dark, summoning(fire warriors, 25% chance for fire trap and 25% chance for phantom forces in the guild, maybe a phoenix from the map), log(teleport assault + plz let it be a phoenix) and war machines.
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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted August 23, 2007 04:23 AM

I'm really angry that Demons don't have summoning. That fits them really well and would solve many of their problems >_>

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Tenaka
Tenaka


Famous Hero
Makes sense
posted August 23, 2007 07:17 AM

Quote:

It's obvious they are good heroes, but the question is: are they actually better than varmachine specialist when stripped off their best spells (summoning, dest.) due to haven's limited guild? I think not, personally.


There are various ways for learning spells. Magic shrines or whatever they're called, and if you're really desperate, you can get scholar. And once you get motw and a decent destructive spell... (Eldritch arrow is good enough for the weaker neutrals, but I'd prefer Ice bolt...)

Quote:
Because other heros can use spells. Look at a warlock.. he doesn't care much how effectively his army is fighting as long as it's not dead. Magic heroes wins the game mainly by their spellpower, knowledge and spells not by attack, defense and an army.



Quote:

A good knight always has some knowledge arties he picked when leveling, and he doesn't need to fear long fights, because there are no long fights. That's why I got thrashed extremely fast by endgame haven - his double stacks of palas, a stack of gryphs and angels acted before my hero and ohko-d 4 stacks, with 3 stacks left it didn't mattered that much if I have double blind of not. The units were artificed and I had exp enlightment, yet I still lost.


I know the feeling...

Quote:

I generally agree, but not with the last part: Deleb>spellpower+knowledge>>attack+def, THAT imo is the order

And that's what makes Harm touch and Cold death priceless...
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 23, 2007 12:10 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 12:11, 23 Aug 2007.

I dont agree with the statememt that knight need wizard hero in quick games. In fact i think this idea sucks. Knight has only light and dark magic + few random spells so most often you wont get anything usefull from there for the quick game(light/dark are terrible in short games)
So basically you would be left with no good spells and no other means of threatening your opponent.

I believe that vittorio is the best solution for quick maps. It also depends on the map too ive played quick maps where dougal was very powerfull too.

I have played 2 games with sylvan in small maps and i won both(i dont play this faction at all) Against warlocks and dwarfs.(100% wins with one of the worst factions in rushing in the game)

I love playing small maps and i must say that most important thing in small maps(and large ones too) is skill If your better you can win with anything against anybody (8 out of 10 times at least)

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted August 23, 2007 12:28 PM

Fully agree with feluniozbunio!

Small maps are the best

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 23, 2007 02:15 PM

In small maps being lucky is way more important than skill. A bad stat distribution during level ups and/or bad skills offered will screw even a godlike player. Not to mention the sickest scenarios like opponent getting Deleb or Havez in tavern..
Still, I think I didn't make myself clear.. Vittorio is so powerful because he ALLOWS for leveling up a wizard(or someone else) because he DOESN'T NEED a huge army take the creeps down. A wizard/magic hero/another machinst also DOESN'T NEED a strong army to creep. So, as long as there are differnt directions in which heroes can go creeping it's worth to use 2(or maybe more) heroes. It's especially important for haven because they NEED riciculous amount of gold ASAP.

If someone can take the map with a war machinst + full army that is a 0 accoplishment. If someone can take the map with a war machinst + fodder that is MUCH better(rest of the army is on some other creeping hero). Sure, that's all about abusing AI weakness but still, what can you do.. even with abuse it's not always that easy. This way for example, Dougal and Vittorio can be leveled up SIMULTANOUSLY. Sure, it's harder because both of them need their creeping paths set and foces has to be split so that each of them is capable of owning the creeps.
In final battle Dougal can be a main and Vittorio can use a weak army - but no too weak - it should be durable so that ballista does as much damage as possible. Then, Vittorio can retreat when he is about to die etc. Then Dougal attacks opponent's main who because of Vittorio's attack has just lost some mana and forces etc.

Still, I'm not skilled enough to pull that off easily(well, I can do it easily with save/game game if it matters ) but it's definitely the way to go. Anyway, that's not even the beggining of the things that a skilled haven player should do.. Guardian angel creeping(suiciding a markman stack at the end of battle so that each of them is resurrected) is wicked hard but it's potential is enormous.

So, for me haven is VERY powerful but only with save/load game..
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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted August 23, 2007 02:25 PM

Quote:
So, for me haven is VERY powerful but only with save/load game..


once a homm player becomes skilled, he can play a castle very good without save/loads.

I'm not taht good too so i stick with the better creepers/rushers.

And vittorio doesn't need full army, he just needs a bit of support sine his ballista ain't that much powerful as deleb's.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 23, 2007 02:38 PM

Well, yes but that's exacly when the major problem arrives: how to split troops between Vittorio and other creeping hero effectively?
Save/load gives the answer

IMO, it more like this:
Once a homm player becomes skilled, he can play any castle except haven very good without save/loads.
Once a homm player becomes godly skilled, he can play any castle very good without save/loads.




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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted August 23, 2007 02:44 PM

Why do you think haven is different? I have had some considerable progress with creeping until now(most factions) and know what works and what may not but I still have barely touched haven. That said I'm still learning
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bloucester
bloucester


Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
posted August 23, 2007 02:56 PM

Once a homm5 player becomes skilled, he can play any castle except haven very well without save/loads.
Once a homm5 player becomes godly skilled, he can play any castle very well without save/loads.
I can only play haven.

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted August 23, 2007 03:15 PM

Right and I remember a guy that could never creep with dungeon. It's all subjective and not all factions have the same potential.
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beware a monkey
-ghost

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havenlover
havenlover


Adventuring Hero
posted August 23, 2007 03:30 PM

Quote:
Right and I remember a guy that could never creep with dungeon. It's all subjective and not all factions have the same potential.


its not subjective, but yes very good creeping can involve more stupid pet tricks with some factions than with others.  I always felt necro was a great beginner race because you could creep amazingly well basically just playing straight up.  take your army, fight their army.  
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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted August 23, 2007 03:49 PM
Edited by Elvin at 15:50, 23 Aug 2007.

I have found or been told good creeping ways for most. Necro and academy I don't need to touch, with inferno I attacked 48 vindicators day 4 or 20 hydras(10 upgraded) on week 2, with sylvan I have taken 12 archangels(on 4 stacks which meant extra resurrections ) on week 2[ok that was Ossir ] and I guess most know what the furies and a few well placed spells can do.

Only academy and necro to a lesser extent do not have the same creeping potential in each game due to spell availability. An icebolt for academy/lightning for necro plus firetrap can allow crazy creeping.

Inferno I thought had a weak start but that's not the case with warmachines and better placement just as sylvan can face ranged creeps without endangering hunters much.

I still don't know how haven could so something similar and I don't find it worthwhile to pursue warmachines. Only divine guidance, good morale and archery with marksmen and peasant fodder seem to do something but I don't find that as effective. Wardancers and ranged units are big obstacles and:
Squires are not easy to come by.
I'd rather get capitol for further training rather than upgrading griffins that is still not too safe with morale-diving or multiple stacks.
No early good speed units for blocking ranged.

It seems that you just have to leave some stacks alone for the first 2-3 weeks or I don't know a better way yet. And I don't want to have to pick Irina, Dougal or Vittorio to creep faster.
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Tenaka
Tenaka


Famous Hero
Makes sense
posted August 23, 2007 03:53 PM

Quote:

Only academy and necro to a lesser extent do not have the same creeping potential in each game due to spell availability. An icebolt for academy/lightning for necro plus firetrap can allow crazy creeping.


...I don't see how you can take on 12 angels or 20 hydras with Icebolt and Academy...How do you do that?
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As fascinating as our bodies are, they're also stupid.

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