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| Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Haven Faction |  This thread is pages long: 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 10 20 24 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 23, 2007 09:58 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 22:02, 23 Aug 2007.
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I did not say that but it is possible by week 2 if you crep fast enough. Just get expert summoning and use firetrap, most of the hydras will block the others. After some firetraps you can use motw + eldritch arrow/icebolt but truth be told I start with Jhora that has the arrow and I also take levels in sorcery early. Oh and I send a few 1-gargoyle stacks to block.
I doubt it's possible without firetrap or higher level spells or if you have a low level. We are talking about hard where lots is 20+ most of the time.
Edit: As for 12 archangels you won't see me attack them on week 2 without good spells  In late game with a good hero I have taken on lots of fallen angels with just master gremlins and gargoyles but I did have some nifty spells 
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted August 23, 2007 10:30 PM |
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Only divine guidance, good morale and archery with marksmen and peasant fodder seem to do something but I don't find that as effective.
With guardian angel it's VERY effective. Marksman can die left and right and when all of them lie dead, guardian angel comes and resurrect them all. The problem is that ALL marksman must be suicided(even retaliation strike is good at that point) in order to be resurrected. After they are resurrected, divine guidance them and finish of the remaining AI stack.
So sometimes, a lower number of them must be placed so that AI can kill them.. It's not easy without save/load.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 23, 2007 10:40 PM |
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Its funny but i think exactly opposite when it comes to luck in small maps. I think that it is much less factor simply because games arent decided by who will be lucky to get all broken artifacts. Stats distribution matters the same with long and short run(altho sometimes you can lvl another hero when first one turns out to be a blow up, but still, seriously how often you do that?)
Besides, i dont see any good reson to do this kind of splits(2lvling 2 hero in small maps). It may be worth for warlock to do some suicide magic harassment but for other factions it just doesnt make much sense. Its very dangerous too because you have your forces split and since its small map you can encounter your opponent while being skirmished all over the map.
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I have found or been told good creeping ways for most. Necro and academy I don't need to touch, with inferno I attacked 48 vindicators day 4 or 20 hydras(10 upgraded) on week 2, with sylvan I have taken 12 archangels(on 4 stacks which meant extra resurrections ) on week 2[ok that was Ossir ] and I guess most know what the furies and a few well placed spells can do.
How bout 7 Emerald Dragons on day 7
I dont support the idea of creeping with guardian angell as well. First of all come on when do you get that skill ? When youre lvl 15? At that point you got all troops you need to kill everything without any tricks. When at last you do get it its too dangerous to creep that way , one false move and youre done, leave save/load for your litle brother games.
I usually play small to medium maps and all important things happen in first 2 week when it comes to creeping. You really need to know how to creep without weird tricks and its an easy thing if you just practise. Theres no need for sneaky tactics. All what is later is just about how to outplay opponent.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 23, 2007 10:43 PM |
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@sdfx
Can't say I have tried that but light may not come that early  I'll give it a shot next time.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted August 24, 2007 09:49 AM |
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Its funny but i think exactly opposite when it comes to luck in small maps. I think that it is much less factor simply because games arent decided by who will be lucky to get all broken artifacts. Stats distribution matters the same with long and short run(altho sometimes you can lvl another hero when first one turns out to be a blow up, but still, seriously how often you do that?)
But it's decided by "broken" spells. Phoenix, no phoenix. Puppet, no puppet ect. Getting not enough knowledge is horrible too, so stat distribution matters even more. Skills too - Yrwanna with no early destructive, a ranger offered with war machines ect.
For me longer maps are more about skill because someone can use more than just one hero(lets say 2) for creeping. 2 fighting heroes mean creeping 2 times more, getting 2 times more artifacts, resources ect.. For me, that's outplaying the opponent.
IMO, small maps are just about rushing with a war machinist or a strong spellcaster.. then 1 of the players can run away etc. Rehire. Attack agian.. It may be more enjoyable in a way because both players fight each other - not the map but it's definitely luck dependant.
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Besides, i dont see any good reson to do this kind of splits(2lvling 2 hero in small maps). It may be worth for warlock to do some suicide magic harassment but for other factions it just doesnt make much sense.
Yes, for OTHER factions.. But haven needs gold badly fast. Other castles are like, "whatever we'll buy everything next week". For haven it's like suiciding palas/marksman. But yeah in small maps it doesn't matter.
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Its very dangerous too because you have your forces split and since its small map you can encounter your opponent while being skirmished all over the map.
Well, you have to trust your skill I guess 
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I dont support the idea of creeping with guardian angell as well. First of all come on when do you get that skill ? When youre lvl 15? At that point you got all troops you need to kill everything without any tricks. When at last you do get it its too dangerous to creep that way , one false move and youre done, leave save/load for your litle brother games.Quote:
Or maybe at lvl 5-9? All you need are 4 lvl ups to get advanced light and 2 perks. Take it fast and your oponion about haven will change. Guardian angel is a must anyway - at least shooters are relatively easy with it. Pfff, then maybe you leave your haven for your little brother games?
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I usually play small to medium maps and all important things happen in first 2 week when it comes to creeping. You really need to know how to creep without weird tricks and its an easy thing if you just practise. Theres no need for sneaky tactics. All what is later is just about how to outplay opponent.
Exacly. So imagine some easy scenario. Let's say you have Deleb in tavern day one. What do you do? Let Deleb pick up recurces and use her for fighting?  You need haven forces on Deleb or you don't?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 24, 2007 10:05 AM |
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you need to give her some meatshields, footmen are perfect, much better than demons and have big shields ; o
As for Guardian angel, fun, useful, and I lost a game due to it once, but for creeping, too random and nothing I'd depend on. Save/loading every 3 seconds is not possible in mp anyway so.. nah.
Big, rich maps create obvious advantage for haven, academy and fortress, reducing the chance for inferno and necropolis to something around 0.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted August 24, 2007 10:29 AM |
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Guardian angel is all about placing on a battlefield enough marksman. Too few or too many and there are losses. So, knowledge about how many of marksmen should be placed vs horde/lots of shooters/casters/others decides.
Necro on big/rich maps can win if there are enough mines to be haunted.
Inferno attack can be very dangerous because of familiars. Still, vs Academy it's hopeless.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 24, 2007 01:51 PM |
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Or maybe at lvl 5-9? All you need are 4 lvl ups to get advanced light and 2 perks. Take it fast and your oponion about haven will change. Guardian angel is a must anyway - at least shooters are relatively easy with it. Pfff, then maybe you leave your haven for your little brother games?
First of all id like to say that when you play multiplayer game theres no save so if you are talking about competitive playing then there are no saves. I play without saves and i play haven , if you cant do it stop teaching others how to play it if youre admitting you cant even play without saves.
Secondly you have to be extreamly lucky to get it on lvl 4 because you wold have to get perfect skills to choose each time which just doesnt happen. So stop theorycrafting and start playing the game.
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Exacly. So imagine some easy scenario. Let's say you have Deleb in tavern day one. What do you do? Let Deleb pick up recurces and use her for fighting? You need haven forces on Deleb or you don't?
I dont need deleb for fighting at all since i can kill everything that is needed with my main and all what is not needed i can kill with anyone else or just leave it since its not needed.
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For me longer maps are more about skill because someone can use more than just one hero(lets say 2) for creeping. 2 fighting heroes mean creeping 2 times more, getting 2 times more artifacts, resources ect.. For me, that's outplaying the opponent.
You are right in one thing here, you have twice much chances to find broken artifacts playing that way. But assuming we play on small maps when there are no broken artifacts this gives you no advantage since your main hero development and timing is much more important than efficient creeping.
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Its very dangerous too because you have your forces split and since its small map you can encounter your opponent while being skirmished all over the map.
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Well, you have to trust your skill I guess
Id say lack of skill if you are being cought scattered all over the map. In games where is no save load its sometimes better not to do some risky moves. But i guess u dont play this type of games.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted August 24, 2007 05:21 PM |
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First of all id like to say that when you play multiplayer game theres no save so if you are talking about competitive playing then there are no saves. I play without saves and i play haven , if you cant do it stop teaching others how to play it if youre admitting you cant even play without saves.
Well, I *can* play haven without saves. The point is that in order to win I just have to be better/luckier.. Match between 2 players with a good skill -> haven loses. Match between 2 godly skilled players(or both of them can save/load ) facing each other -> haven may win. At a very high level game haven is definitely not the weakest - it's one of the strongest.
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Secondly you have to be extreamly lucky to get it on lvl 4 because you wold have to get perfect skills to choose each time which just doesnt happen. So stop theorycrafting and start playing the game.
But you can control it. You can level up starting skills at max. Then you have 2 skill offered at the same time. Light show ups, adv light, blessings -> next level up means 100% chance for guardian angel.
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I dont need deleb for fighting at all since i can kill everything that is needed with my main and all what is not needed i can kill with anyone else or just leave it since its not needed.
Wait, till you meet someone who will.. Deleb's ballista will make a difference, especially in a quick game. Cmon, lets say that you fight vs equally skilled opponent, your mains clashes, fierce battle and you barely win. But then opponent's Deleb comes and fireball shiny thingy kills you. Anyway, Deleb also can be used to soak up opponent's main, so she will make a difference.
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You are right in one thing here, you have twice much chances to find broken artifacts playing that way. But assuming we play on small maps when there are no broken artifacts this gives you no advantage since your main hero development and timing is much more important than efficient creeping.
And how does using a 2nd hero like Deleb hinder your main hero development?
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Id say lack of skill if you are being cought scattered all over the map. In games where is no save load its sometimes better not to do some risky moves. But i guess u dont play this type of games.
But you can use secondary heroes as scouts - there is no need to take unnecessary risks.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 24, 2007 06:15 PM |
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quote:Secondly you have to be extreamly lucky to get it on lvl 4 because you wold have to get perfect skills to choose each time which just doesnt happen. So stop theorycrafting and start playing the game.
But you can control it. You can level up starting skills at max. Then you have 2 skill offered at the same time. Light show ups, adv light, blessings -> next level up means 100% chance for guardian angel.
So at first you say that you need 4 lvl ups and then youre talking about what you will do after maxing starting skills? Either i dont get it something or you miscalculated that 4 badly.
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quote:Id say lack of skill if you are being cought scattered all over the map. In games where is no save load its sometimes better not to do some risky moves. But i guess u dont play this type of games.
But you can use secondary heroes as scouts - there is no need to take unnecessary risks.
Scouts are one thing and leveling secondary hero and splitting your armies is another thing. Its always good to have scouts.
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And how does using a 2nd hero like Deleb hinder your main hero development?
Probably it wont but it wont help you much either. since your main has to hain experience and you want to kill stuff with main not deleb. Killing lvl 1/2 can be done with any other hero , it doesnt have to be deleb. Still how likly youre gonna get her in tavern while ur not demons?
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Match between 2 godly skilled players(or both of them can save/load ) facing each other -> haven may win.
It appears that i must be godly skilled
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted August 24, 2007 06:29 PM |
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Match between 2 godly skilled players(or both of them can save/load ) facing each other -> haven may win.
It appears that i must be godly skilled
xD nice one^^. Anyway all I wanted to say is: would you actually use Deleb in a mp-match?? Even if she is offered I wouldn't take her because it almost instantly makes the game broken... on small maps the enemy doesn't stand a chance... so basically for having a fair/fun game it's inmoral to take Deleb... but ok I guess that not many people share my oppinion as many just care about winning... well just my thougts...
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 24, 2007 06:34 PM |
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If neither of player is inferno theres very litle chance for that to happen so it doesnt really matter. When one player is inferno then its decided before the game wheather she is available. Everybody used to ban her in TOH small map games but Grok proved to be not much worse. With Grok some people win games in 7 days  .(often over 20 attack skill and lvl about 15 )
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted August 24, 2007 06:39 PM |
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I guess you are right but I'm not sure if Grok really is as broken as Deleb because he has 5% more moving (together with logistics 15%) from the beginning and the teleport spell (which indeed is very usefull) but I isn't it much easier to counter a guy that can teleport his troops infront of your shooters than a women that blows up everything with her Ballista?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 24, 2007 06:43 PM |
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Im not saying hes broken... just saying that you can have surprisingly good results with other heroes too. Actually more important then specialization is that he is starting with logistics. Starting skills are almost always more important then specialization.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted August 24, 2007 06:47 PM |
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Hmm... and he's also the only Demon Lord who can reach Urgash's call but well that is of lesser importance in MP games anyway. And well he's actually one of the few really usefull Inferno heroes imo together with Nebiros (Nymus can be nice end game but he doesn't really help you creep).
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted August 24, 2007 07:46 PM |
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So at first you say that you need 4 lvl ups and then youre talking about what you will do after maxing starting skills? Either i dont get it something or you miscalculated that 4 badly.
I meant that getting adv light(2 lvl ups) and 2 perks = 4 level ups
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Scouts are one thing and leveling secondary hero and splitting your armies is another thing. Its always good to have scouts.
No need to split anything if you have Deleb.
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Killing lvl 1/2 can be done with any other hero , it doesnt have to be deleb.
Yes, chance for her is very low, but main the main strength about Deleb is that she can kill any level.
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It appears that i must be godly skilled
or your opponent had bad luck or is less skilled than you..
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Grok proved to be not much worse. With Grok some people win games in 7 days .(often over 20 attack skill and lvl about 15 )
What map is that?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 24, 2007 08:33 PM |
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Im not saying hes broken... just saying that you can have surprisingly good results with other heroes too. Actually more important then specialization is that he is starting with logistics. Starting skills are almost always more important then specialization.
I second that..
Kythra's specialization seems bad, for example, but since he starts with leadership, she's automatically the best choice for a pure might dungeon. Not that pure might dungeon can do anything, though 
Starting spells are also a big factor, starting with eldritch arrow is really a big + for the hero.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 24, 2007 08:45 PM |
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sdfx ok man, whatever.
Map is Heritage of Deleb.
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quote:It appears that i must be godly skilled
or your opponent had bad luck or is less skilled than you..
Nah.. Im godly skilled. Period.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted August 24, 2007 11:14 PM |
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All "imba" machinists are banned on Heritage of Deleb. Gee, I wonder who dominates then? Maybe a hero with a highest chance to get war machines? No way.. Grok, of course has the highest chance -> log and gating are off so his chance to get war machines = 13.3(3)% If both log and gating are maxed(Grok level = 5) then 2 new skills are offered at each lvl up so Grok's chance for war machines = 24.8(8)% Pretty, clear why he is such a badass.
Then of course, it's not over. Demolord's troops high attack makes AI so "scared" of a retal that all it can do vs a demonlord machinist is whacking poor war machines(especially a poor tent).
Also, very crucial thing happens in guild lvl1 -> mass slow(50% chance) often makes all the difference.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 25, 2007 05:38 PM |
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Fortress got 15% fpr war machines , some other factions got quite hight chance too. Nodoby dominates. Id say maybe necro is better then average but that would be all. Phoenix is banned too by the way. I had so many fun games with so clever tactics used on both sides that i really miss them (i havent played for few months)
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