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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Do Wraiths do more than look cool?
Thread: Do Wraiths do more than look cool? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Fuzzier
Fuzzier


Adventuring Hero
posted June 29, 2006 05:26 AM

There's already been another topic "why can't Wraiths fly?", and full of discussions there, and I don't think Wraiths are bad, instead they're quite good!

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clin_cavalier
clin_cavalier


Hired Hero
of the Armpit
posted June 29, 2006 06:20 AM
Edited by clin_cavalier at 06:21, 29 Jun 2006.

im new to Wraith topic but..

considering Harm Touch ability, I'd go with Pit Lords with vorpal sword... they also cast nice spells..

but Wraiths are decent units anyways (I like BIG weapons )
____________
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cheaters don't win." - Brain Age

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OOPMan
OOPMan


Adventuring Hero
posted June 29, 2006 12:05 PM

I can't believe so many people think abilities like Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are anything other than "cool words".

It's more useful to kill lots of creatures than one creature and thus the only situations in which Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are of any use are situations that could be, mostly, described as "losing" situation.

Frankly, Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are 95% crap and 5% useful, which is a sad thing really.
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Gus
Gus


Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
posted June 29, 2006 02:54 PM

Harm Touch dispells and does not cause retaliation. I'm not saying it's great, just that it does have its use.
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Andmcmuffin2
Andmcmuffin2


Hired Hero
In need of Undead Avatar
posted June 30, 2006 06:30 AM

Thanks for your replies. Before this I did not realize all this about Wraiths. I guess this is the final word- Wraiths are good when
a)they attack first,
OR
b)they themselves are blessed.
Once again- this shows that wraiths are'nt useless after all.
____________
The wraith is reserved?!?! NOOOO I'M NOT GOING TO BE PINK AND UNDEAD!

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ZeroXcuses
ZeroXcuses


Known Hero
posted June 30, 2006 10:48 PM

Quote:
I can't believe so many people think abilities like Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are anything other than "cool words".

It's more useful to kill lots of creatures than one creature and thus the only situations in which Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are of any use are situations that could be, mostly, described as "losing" situation.

Frankly, Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are 95% crap and 5% useful, which is a sad thing really.


What is this guy talking about? Obviously, he has not seen a stack of Pit Lords split during the tactics phase, then gated, the phantom forced. Top tier units do not last against them.

I just played a map today where I split my wraiths. My opponent had 11 black dragons which I could not have dispatched without a few turns of harm touch.

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted June 30, 2006 11:00 PM

Quote:
I can't believe so many people think abilities like Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are anything other than "cool words".

It's more useful to kill lots of creatures than one creature and thus the only situations in which Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are of any use are situations that could be, mostly, described as "losing" situation.

Frankly, Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are 95% crap and 5% useful, which is a sad thing really.


Tell that to a pheonix that just get obliterated by a single wraith (no retaliation) harm touch...

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 30, 2006 11:39 PM

Harm touch/vorpal sword is good!! very good. As ZeroXcuses said, gating and phantom imaging can add a lot of stacks, resulting in 3-4 dead level 7 units per turn.. in a normal multiplayer game, you will find that as a insane advantage!

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Thanatos
Thanatos


Known Hero
posted July 01, 2006 12:31 AM

Quote:
I can't believe so many people think abilities like Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are anything other than "cool words".

It's more useful to kill lots of creatures than one creature and thus the only situations in which Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are of any use are situations that could be, mostly, described as "losing" situation.

Frankly, Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are 95% crap and 5% useful, which is a sad thing really.


Vorpal Sword is automatically activated every time you attack so yes, it's very useful. Also, instead of picking the highest damage of the two Vorpal Sword actually works additive to your normal attack making it even more powerful (so if you attack a Treant you simply get 175 damage added to any attack you make)... if you can get them into melee range that is

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Gus
Gus


Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
posted July 01, 2006 12:38 AM

Quote:
Also, instead of picking the highest damage of the two Vorpal Sword actually works additive to your normal attack making it even more powerful (so if you attack a Treant you simply get 175 damage added to any attack you make)... if you can get them into melee range that is

Not exactly. Vorpal Sword ensures you make at least a kill. So if you attack a target with 180 HP:
- if you do less, you'll kill one. (Vorpal kicks in)
- if you do 180 damage or more, you'll deal the regular damage, and that's it. (Vorpal doesn't kick in)
____________
If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.

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Thanatos
Thanatos


Known Hero
posted July 01, 2006 12:52 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Also, instead of picking the highest damage of the two Vorpal Sword actually works additive to your normal attack making it even more powerful (so if you attack a Treant you simply get 175 damage added to any attack you make)... if you can get them into melee range that is

Not exactly. Vorpal Sword ensures you make at least a kill. So if you attack a target with 180 HP:
- if you do less, you'll kill one. (Vorpal kicks in)
- if you do 180 damage or more, you'll deal the regular damage, and that's it. (Vorpal doesn't kick in)


Not in my experience... if a single Pit Lord gets vorpal on a creature it always gets his normal damage added to it as extra... I'll test it sometime.

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Fuzzier
Fuzzier


Adventuring Hero
posted July 02, 2006 05:39 AM
Edited by Fuzzier at 06:10, 02 Jul 2006.

Thanatos is right.
I tested 25 Pit Lords hit Emerald Dragons (hero-less).
Attacker:
50 attack rating, Expert Attack Skill, Damage Range 32-32.
Defender:
27 defense rating.

So the calculated damage is:
25*32*[1+(50-27)*5%]*(1+15%)-1 = 1977.
But the damage dealt is 2177 = 1977 + (full HP of Emerald Dragon), and no matter the first Emerald Dragon has full HP or not.

But I agree with Gus, and I think this is a bug.

So a most recent damage calculation formula is:
when attack > defense,
(dmg x quan) x [(1 + diff x 5%) x (1 + off%) x (1 - arm%) x (1 + morale%) x (1 + ret%)] x (1 + luck%) + coldsteel + fierywrath + vorpalsword

dmg: creature base damage
quan: quantity of creatures
diff: attack - defense
off%: Attack skill bonus
arm%: Defense skill bonus
morale%: Retribution skill bonus (when morale>0: morale*5%; otherwise: 0%)
ret%: Counterstrike skill bonus.
luck%: luck bonus.
coldsteel: Cold Steel skill bonus.
fierywrath: Fiery Wrath skill bonus.
vorpalsword: Vorpal Sword ability bonus.

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Gus
Gus


Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
posted July 02, 2006 03:00 PM

i should have paid more attention, my apologies Thanatos.
____________
If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 02, 2006 03:32 PM

Quote:
Thanatos is right.
I tested 25 Pit Lords hit Emerald Dragons (hero-less).
Attacker:
50 attack rating, Expert Attack Skill, Damage Range 32-32.
Defender:
27 defense rating.

So the calculated damage is:
25*32*[1+(50-27)*5%]*(1+15%)-1 = 1977.
But the damage dealt is 2177 = 1977 + (full HP of Emerald Dragon), and no matter the first Emerald Dragon has full HP or not.

But I agree with Gus, and I think this is a bug.

So a most recent damage calculation formula is:
when attack > defense,
(dmg x quan) x [(1 + diff x 5%) x (1 + off%) x (1 - arm%) x (1 + morale%) x (1 + ret%)] x (1 + luck%) + coldsteel + fierywrath + vorpalsword

dmg: creature base damage
quan: quantity of creatures
diff: attack - defense
off%: Attack skill bonus
arm%: Defense skill bonus
morale%: Retribution skill bonus (when morale>0: morale*5%; otherwise: 0%)
ret%: Counterstrike skill bonus.
luck%: luck bonus.
coldsteel: Cold Steel skill bonus.
fierywrath: Fiery Wrath skill bonus.
vorpalsword: Vorpal Sword ability bonus.



Good work Fuzzier! And yes, it looks like a bug that they add the Vorpal Sword damage when damage > defender HP. At least, that's not logical from the description of this ability (ensures that at least one defender dies ...).

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OOPMan
OOPMan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 02, 2006 04:06 PM
Edited by OOPMan at 16:08, 02 Jul 2006.

Quote:
Quote:
I can't believe so many people think abilities like Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are anything other than "cool words".

It's more useful to kill lots of creatures than one creature and thus the only situations in which Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are of any use are situations that could be, mostly, described as "losing" situation.

Frankly, Harm Touch and Vorpal Sword are 95% crap and 5% useful, which is a sad thing really.


What is this guy talking about? Obviously, he has not seen a stack of Pit Lords split during the tactics phase, then gated, the phantom forced. Top tier units do not last against them.

I just played a map today where I split my wraiths. My opponent had 11 black dragons which I could not have dispatched without a few turns of harm touch.


Splitting troops and using the ever-so-cheesy Phantom Forces spell is pretty silly really. An ability should be useful without the need to set up such highly specialised armies.

Also, that kinda of splitting tactic probably won't work too well against an intelligent human player with a fairly decent hero. Said player will just fry your paltry stacks of originals with a few well placed spells and before you know it it's battle over because you've got no non-Phantom troops left.

I'd rather have a fat stack that I can rely on to work in most situations than a swarm of mini-stacks that only work on the basis that my opponent is a moronic AI with no battle skills...
____________
It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye...

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 02, 2006 06:41 PM

Good point OOPMan - and nice new Avatar.

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Gus
Gus


Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
posted July 02, 2006 07:44 PM

that's also why the logarithmic calculation of spellcaster units' spellpower needs to go.
____________
If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.

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juventas
juventas


Adventuring Hero
posted July 03, 2006 12:47 AM

Quote:
I'd rather have a fat stack that I can rely on to work in most situations than a swarm of mini-stacks that only work on the basis that my opponent is a moronic AI with no battle skills...


That choice really doesn't apply anymore since you can split in the tactics phase.  Use both strategies!
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2XtremeToTake
2XtremeToTake


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted July 03, 2006 03:46 AM

Dude wraiths are like one of my new favorite creatures

At endgame (during singleplayer..haven't tried it multi yet)

I replaced my zombies with two stacks of about 10 wraiths each..keeps them alive for a decent time, figure your automatically taking out 2 creatures (preferably level 7's) per turn, even black dragons...Very useful.
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I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.

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OOPMan
OOPMan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 03, 2006 10:09 AM

Quote:
Good point OOPMan - and nice new Avatar.


Thanks, hot off the avatar press, it is. On this forum anyway. I use it everywhere else already :-)
____________
It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye...

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