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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heavan superiority ?!
Thread: Heavan superiority ?! [ This thread is 24 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 (17) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ]
DragonLord3000
DragonLord3000


Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
posted September 05, 2006 01:17 PM

Don't think so

Have all of you even thought of compering them with Dungeon castle?!
Conscript vs. Assasin= 0-1
Marksmen vs. Blood Fury= 0-1(think!)
Squire vs. Minotaur King= 0-1
Imperial Griffin vs.Grim Rider= Don't know!(but i still think that griffin dies)
Inquisitor vs.Deep hydra= 0-1
Paladin vs. Shadow Matriarch= 1-0
Archangel vs.Black Dragon= 0-1

Almost every unit,let's say five are stronger than the haven ones!!!
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Elvin Online
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted September 05, 2006 01:37 PM

Quote:
Have all of you even thought of compering them with Dungeon castle?!
Conscript vs. Assasin= 0-1
Marksmen vs. Blood Fury= 0-1(think!)
Squire vs. Minotaur King= 0-1
Imperial Griffin vs.Grim Rider= Don't know!(but i still think that griffin dies)
Inquisitor vs.Deep hydra= 0-1
Paladin vs. Shadow Matriarch= 1-0
Archangel vs.Black Dragon= 0-1

Almost every unit,let's say five are stronger than the haven ones!!!


Riiight!Theory is good but I suggest you play with an experienced haven player too.If you had read this thread a bit more you would not be so quick to dismiss the possibility.Especially the marksmen vs b fury thingy.Marksmen can accumulate almost as good as skellies and can be more dangerous than archangels currently I'm afraid.
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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted September 05, 2006 02:07 PM

Quote:
Here's my oppinion:

I would have to agree with DKOLB that there really isn't the best town in H5. It would be simply plain stupid of Nival to make a game with a superior faction (or 2,3...doesn't matter).There are some advantages in factions but they mostly determine the mere start of the game which is important, but far from crucial.
Often you can have a great start, clear the creeps much sooner than your opponent and still lose the game (which is normal). I found myself losing a perfectly led game just because my friend was a lucky bastard to find 3 times better artifacts than me ! He was immune to implosion, had the ring of speed and dragon eye ring etc. while i was stuck with boots of magic protecion (+10% res),cloak of sylanna and neckless of a blody claw (which is not that bad i admit). But again,that is what i love about Heroes...the same armies can create various outcomes in battles.It is not linear and always predictable (expecially with luck and morale).Any faction can defeat any faction with same probability.It is HOW you play Heroes,not WHO you play it with (in terms of faction, of course )



HEBPEME ... only in a perfect game any faction can defeat any faction ! Heroes 5 right now is far from a perfect game. There is some balance in the game, and Haven can be defeated by other factions! But if two equally skilled players clash, the one that has Haven will win at least 70% of the games they play. Defeating 500-600 marksmen in week 6, is a very difficult thing to do, almost impossible even!

Even if they fight melee only , they still do a huge damage!

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted September 05, 2006 02:16 PM

DragonLord I don't know what is your reasoning or something like that, but I can surely say that you are very wrong... Anyway Elvin is right, you should read the whole topic, you'll learn lots of things about the game from it !

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dkolb
dkolb


Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
posted September 05, 2006 05:28 PM
Edited by dkolb at 18:03, 05 Sep 2006.

Quote:

HEBPEME ... only in a perfect game any faction can defeat any faction ! Heroes 5 right now is far from a perfect game. There is some balance in the game, and Haven can be defeated by other factions! But if two equally skilled players clash, the one that has Haven will win at least 70% of the games they play. Defeating 500-600 marksmen in week 6, is a very difficult thing to do, almost impossible even!

Even if they fight melee only , they still do a huge damage!


But again I state that how strong a town becomes is dependant on the player. That is the main thing, and because no two player play the exact same way, I actually would agree that the game is fairly balanced.
That's the beauty of heroes, someone may have a strategy that seems like nonsense when it is described but yet in the game actually works quite well.

Through this thread I have come to believe that Haven is indeed the most powerful faction... IF AND ONLY IF... it is used correctly and even then it is not invincible, because the other player might find the best artifacts or powerful neutral creatures will join him.

Now TowerLord I think you don't give yourself enough credit, probably someone like you would indeed win at least 70% of the time, because you have mastered how to use the town to your advantage.

But not all are of equal skill, and if they are they may choose to devote their energies into strategies for other towns.

To PhoenixReborn: AMEN! The Heroes 2 castle was an absolute nightmare of a town. I can't think of any town in HOMM history that was as ill suited as that blasted castle. In Heroes 1 at least the other towns had basically the same creatures, but in HOMM2 your at a disadvantage with almost all of the creatures. And none of them could fly either (flying in HOMM2 was a bigger deal because you could pretty much fly anywhere across the screen), and the A.I. was soo cheap, the entire experience of playing as them was infuriating!

well anyway sorry if this is off topic but uhhg I have to get how bad this town is off my chest:

Peasant: the same peasant that was in the original heroes, you think the peasant is bad in H5, but this one had 1 in every stat including health, and no of course it didn't generate gold because that would almost make it useful

Archer/Ranger: did pretty good damage, too bad none of them would last over a few battles, if the AI had any flyers they would be faster than you and would fly across the screen and attack the archers immediately, forcing you to do melee damage and be counter attacked to death. If you were actually winning the battle the A.I. would cast lightning bolt and run away which would kill another 10 or so of them.

Pikeman/Vet. Pikeman: so-so but if there is castle walls your going to lose tons of them because they aren't fast, they can't protect your archers because the enemy can automatically get to them if they have fliers.

Swordsmen/ M. Swordsmen: fairly tough unit like the pikeman but the problem is it's pretty much the same freakin thing as the pikeman and has the same problems, which are getting to the other side of the castle without being killed, not being shot to death, or being turned berserk, or having slow casted on it, all of which it seemed to enjoy doing.

Cavalier/ Champ.: Now your probably thinking these things were awesome like in H5, well not exactly, they were fast and so they had that going for them, but they had less than 1/2 the hp that the H5. And they had lightnigh bolt cast on them which seemed to kill tons of them EVERY TURN!

Paladin/Crusader: these things looked awesome, attacked twice and were deadly to the undead and cheap, but they still had barely any health and were killed by spells.

That game had terrible balancing issues... uhhg


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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted September 05, 2006 05:56 PM

That is why Nival will change Training It would be nice to see some archangels in endgame... Marksmen kind of me make me dizzy

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mmontgomery
mmontgomery


Hired Hero
posted September 05, 2006 09:53 PM
Edited by mmontgomery at 22:02, 05 Sep 2006.

This thread makes a very good case that the training from peasants to archers is too inexpensive, since one can get trained marksman at only a 51 gold premiem over recruiting marksmen directly, and there are huge quantities of peasants supplied.  I think the other training costs are more in line with value, or in some cases, the training is seems too expensive to me, and should be reduced.  So training should not be increased accross the board, but only this one specific case is too cheap.

Even with marksmen in quantity that are too cheap, someone playing against Haven knows this, and should get Dark Magic if possible [empowered spells if a Warlock].  I almost always try for Dark Magic anyway, but in this case it is critical.

In addition to mass confusion, mass weakness, and mass suffering, spells like frenzy and and puppet master can be very useful against marksman. The critical thing is timing.  You want to cast your spell on a creature whose action will occur before the enemy hero, so that he does not get a chance to cleanse.  Puppet master or frenzy on the marksman or on a large stack adjacent to the marksmen work well.  The stack will be killed by the marksmen, may take out a few marksmen, and will leave a spot next to the marksmen to position a unit.  This will force the marksmen to be distracted by the soakoff unit (often one that is gated, phantom force, or a unit of little consequence), rather than have the marksmen be able to attack your more important units.

Another important strategy that I have not seen mentioned in this thread is the soak-off attack.  The idea is to create a suicide squad to reduce the number of marksmen.  (This also works well for other kinds of feared units as well.)  Most spellcasters will work for this, though some are more cost effective than others.

To illustrate, we will assume a soakoff army with a throwaway hero and 7 stacks of druids with 4 druids in each stack.  Assuming 3500 gold for the hero, this army costs 12180 gold.  Each stack can cast up to two lighting at 84 damage each.  Since the druid has 10 initiative, against a typical Haven army probably 6-7 stacks will get off the first lighting bolt, and 5 more stacks can fire the second lightning bolt, for a total of about 1000 damage, thus killing about 100 marksmen.  Since trained marksman cost 140 each (unless using a hero with expert training, which save 9 gold each), this is about 14000 gold of trained marksmen killed.  Not only are you slightly better off from a strictly gold standpoint, but you have substantially weakened his strongest weapon.  One such attack counters almost 5 weeks of training.

Such soakoff armies are possible with most factions, although some factions are more costly than others.  For example, the same strategy with archmages fireball costs slightly more and does slightly less damage to the marksman, but does damage within a 3x3 pattern, typically damaging 3 or 4 stacks, since the marksman are usually boxed in by other units.

But the same thing using Pit Lords (7 stacks of 2 each for equivalent power), cost double that of mages.  The only compensation is that the first strikes can be all meteor showers, which will hopefully catch several enemy units in the 5x5 area.  Still, it may even be worth sacrificing pit lords to help defang the marksman threat.

Finally, for those factions/heroes that specialize in light magic, be sure and cleanse the enemy marksman of buffs.  Expert divine strength boost average marksman damage from 5 to 8, a 60% increase.  Expert righteous might also boosts damage by 60%, and they stack!  Haste means they do the damage at a 40% faster rate.  Cleansing these buffs can reduce the effectiveness of marksman by almost a factor of 3, down to a more tolerable level.

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted September 06, 2006 06:48 AM

well, these are nice points, but haven has those inquisitors to haste/bless when hero can't do it plus paladins to heal when really needed.. I usually saw 2 stacks of inquisitors and 2 stacks of paladins to utilise that best way. Marksmen slow speed is a benefit here, since those units will probably act earlier and dispel any dark magic casted. It's very hard to use a spell against marksmen and not have it dispeled before marksmen's turn.

Empowered meteor shower, on the other hand, can be very good, because marksmen are surrounded by other stacks. Once they're gone, you can block them.. well, in case you have anything capable of blocking left, which ain't that easy. Warlock units suck, you know.

It's a little better for inferno, because you have much more stacks via gating and only one shooter, so you don't need to worry your attacks will get greatly reduced by squires. Pitlords are fun, too. But still, your army will probably be greatly reduced by the time you'll whack your way to block the marksmen and you have to care for paladins too, which are quite annoying. Oh well.

I can't imagine how a sylvan player can win.. hunters won't help here(squires), and druids ain't that good in bigger numbers. Unicorns are fun, sure, but get ready to lose them in your first turn, and treants ain't attackers. What's left?

Necropolis simply can't do it - TowerLord got a nice point there, 600 marksmen in week 6 or so - against 1k skellies, but haven has squires, and you have nothing. Duh. At least animate dead can help.. I guess. Liches are good, too (nasty spells), but they won't survive - no way. Wraiths are cocksuckers, they will do nothing. I don't even take vamps into consideration.

Academy.. we are silent here ;X

Doesn't look good, does it? Don't panic, tho. You just need to win earlier

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Elvin Online
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted September 06, 2006 08:41 AM

Quote:
well, these are nice points, but haven has those inquisitors to haste/bless when hero can't do it plus paladins to heal when really needed.. I usually saw 2 stacks of inquisitors and 2 stacks of paladins to utilise that best way. Marksmen slow speed is a benefit here, since those units will probably act earlier and dispel any dark magic casted. It's very hard to use a spell against marksmen and not have it dispeled before marksmen's turn.



Not that much.Inquisitors have no cleansing and can't do much against say confusion or frenzy.Paladins have the habit of charging so they may be a little far from the marksmen or blocked before they can lay hands or even may find it is more to their benefit to attack again.
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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted September 06, 2006 08:42 AM

I just tried Squire Training, and I can say that Laszlo is by far the most powerful endgame hero on Subterranean treasures - even Dougal can't match; I would say that the chances between them are 70-30% in a normal game. I didn't think squires will be that powerful, but in practice there is only one thing you need to fear horribly - Dougal hero teleporting his marksmen within the 3 tile range of squires. Even with 0,5 modifier their shot will be davastating. On the other hand, teleport works the same other way around, and you can always go dark and hope to get a good ATB situation so you can use frenzy properly. Or maybe the opponent won't have cleansing .

What you need to do:
-forget about griffins entirely
-don't fear to train some peasants to archers - you actualy need to do this, and you WILL be able to hold it off financialy. Don't build a second town at all, except going for city hall. You won't need those units anyway, and don't even try to depend on them. This can be a logistic problem and deadly for you if the opponent Instant Travels correctly. Oh yes, take the Ore mine ASAP
-if you won't to go for priests that's fine, but you MUST go for inquisitors then - they are no killer whatsoever, but two stacks of 18 or so casting beneficial spells actually gives you an opportunity to go for dark only, and this can be a bad surprise for the opponent
-you will probably lag a bit after Dougal in the beginning. You shouldn't worry too much. Sure, he can naval assault you, but his knowledge will likely be ineduquat to Summon creatures his marksmen from the town - just make sure to control your wells and the middle water. As for Instant Travel, hero level 15 is actualy a far endgame, and by that time you will be prepared.
-make sure you have 100 marksmen or so in the endgame. You WILL have them because you likely won't have the cash to train them to squires. Even if you do have the cash I would still leave at least a 100 of them.  
-as for skill selection - must skills are Defense->Evasion, Attack->Tactics, Battle Frenzy, Retribution (you can leave this out if Expert Training is to much of a cost for you), Leadership->Divine Guidance, Aura of Speed, Light/Dark. The rest you can choose between Luck, Enlightment, Sorcery, Logistics. I wouldn't go for luck actualy - it's all about wether you will be able to draw in your squires and make a hit - if you do you win, if not you lose, so luck isn't really a huge factor (it is for the opponent. Do EVERYTHING to try to kill his morale/luck). Logistics is very nice, and can help you to level faster, Pathfinding and Familiar Ground are excelent (by all means, try to make your squires FAST, +3 from Windstrider, Aura of Speed and Familiar Ground is a horrifying sight for the opponent), Sorcery can make quite a disturbance in the Initiative bar and can help you set you hero before the marksmen for frenzy, Enlightment A/D bonus is excellent. If you get Phantom Forces in the town great. If the opponent gets it it can get tricky. This is rear though.

The endgame should look 650-700 marksmen lead by Dougal with Inquisitors, Imperials and Paladins, vs. 400 Squires lead by Laszlo with Imperials, Inquisitors, Paladins and 100 Marksmen. You can increase the number of Marksmen/Squires by not building Griffins and/or Inquisitors.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted September 06, 2006 08:53 AM

Rainalcar you are mistaking badly ... this is just a strategy that might work against Dougal and his marksmen, but its useless against dungeon! Your 400 Squires will be eaten alive by implosions, before they get to hit something and relying on paladins and Griffins only against dungeon is suicide ...

Still I doubt that you will be able to get 400 squires in week 6 , when I am prepared for the final charge with 550-600 marksmen!

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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted September 06, 2006 09:05 AM

The whole tactic thing is written as a counter to Dougal, I think that is quite clear. There would obviously be changes if fighting Dungeon. Eaten by Implosions? It would take about 10 Implosions to kill them. Having 25% Resistance is piece of cake. Teleport anyone? Magical Immunity anyone? Will you cleanse perhaps?

You probably never played this tactic. I recommend you try, you will be surprised.

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DragonLord3000
DragonLord3000


Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
posted September 06, 2006 09:56 AM

Sorry...I should have read the whole topic!
I have to say that the best castle to fight haven in a intense battle is necropolis!i just weakened the marksmen with the archlich and from there i had minimum casualties.There were 290 or so marksmen with the hero's attack at 15

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Unixmage
Unixmage


Known Hero
Demon Slayer
posted September 06, 2006 10:19 AM

Empowered implosions ate my stacks one stack at a time. Lets see that one weakened.

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Elvin Online
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted September 06, 2006 10:38 AM

Nothing that cannot be countered even if partially with resistance/protection or by a full charge with say mass haste.Implosion is still weaker than in H3 and we should be fine with that.
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HEBPEME
HEBPEME


Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
posted September 06, 2006 11:34 AM
Edited by HEBPEME at 11:41, 06 Sep 2006.





HEBPEME ... only in a perfect game any faction can defeat any faction ! Heroes 5 right now is far from a perfect game. There is some balance in the game, and Haven can be defeated by other factions! But if two equally skilled players clash, the one that has Haven will win at least 70% of the games they play. Defeating 500-600 marksmen in week 6, is a very difficult thing to do, almost impossible even!

Even if they fight melee only , they still do a huge damage!



Towerlord ,
it is almost impossible to accumulate even 500 and not to mention 600 marksmen in 6 weeks since that is not the only thing that you're building and spending money for.Consider also that you need castle,training grounds and hall of heroes built along with the capitol and then calculate the amouut of money already spent PLUS all the money that you need to train peasants into archers and then upgrade archers into marksmen .I would say it's rather impossible in that number you said.Of course,it is not a problem to have 300-400 of them (approximately) and i agree they are VERY strong and offensive unit but, as some people said in last few posts, there is ALWAYS a counter-measure for everything.It is up to you to choose which method to use against them.Their initiative isn't high enough to present unmanagable threat.I might agree that their damage is slightly higher than other units of the same tier, but again, they are not the only one.That doesn't mean that the game is not balanced,cuz every faction has it's strengths and advantages and weaknesses and Haven is no exception.Priests are way to underpowered and even inquisitors suck imo,cuz they never get to do any serious damage,they are expensive and the only good thing about them are spells which i can always use with my hero and waste only half of initiative.Paladins are sick i agree, but again they're pretty low in HP compairing to other lvl 6 creatures.Squires are a great defensive force but that is pretty much it.Not to mention the griffins that are rather weak in terms of deffense...it is never a problem to dispose of them quickly.So just like any other faction in HoMM, Haven is just as beatable as any imo. The only thing that brings certain victory is adjusting each game completely to your enemy and brutaly use disadvantages of your opponent and hit where it hurts the most (read: kill blood furies,marksmen & master huters )
Enough from me (for now )
L8er

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted September 06, 2006 11:46 AM
Edited by TowerLord at 11:50, 06 Sep 2006.

Quote:
The whole tactic thing is written as a counter to Dougal, I think that is quite clear. There would obviously be changes if fighting Dungeon. Eaten by Implosions? It would take about 10 Implosions to kill them. Having 25% Resistance is piece of cake. Teleport anyone? Magical Immunity anyone? Will you cleanse perhaps?

You probably never played this tactic. I recommend you try, you will be surprised.


you said it's by far the best hero in endgame , that's why i thought you meant against all !

anyway my question still remains... can you get 400 squires by week 6? I don't think so... and if you don't manage to do that I'll make a chain to your island take you secondary town, and after that conquer your island peace by peace , until you come to fight with 250 squires at most, which are totally disposeable !

i don't think squires are the way to victory, cause eventually they'll have to come into the 3 tile range of the marksmen, and then they'll be history!

edit: and about the implosion thing ... after the dungeon player crushes you paladins and griffins, he can take his time casting implosions all over the place , cause you'll never reach the furys! & Magic immunity doesn't work against dungeon(just partially), and you won't have it since you are focusing on dark magic

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted September 06, 2006 11:53 AM

hebpeme ... i can only say i did more than 600. it is very easy to do it! 500 + is piece of cake in the 6th week... for 600+ you must get Ellaine in your tavern , and that usually happens when you don't play against another haven

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HEBPEME
HEBPEME


Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
posted September 06, 2006 12:13 PM

Quote:
hebpeme ... i can only say i did more than 600. it is very easy to do it! 500 + is piece of cake in the 6th week... for 600+ you must get Ellaine in your tavern , and that usually happens when you don't play against another haven


Towerlord ,

i don't wish to sound like a perfectionist but even if you had castle built in the first week and Ellaine in the castle, you would accumulute about 480. That is , however ,without any losses and without any creature dwellings that you might have on the map. If you were refering to Sub treasures ,however, i admit the number can be 600 cuz of the dwelling.It's just that i thought you were speaking generaly all the time (didn't figure it was about a sub treasures map )

L8er

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted September 06, 2006 12:25 PM

it works on any map, if you get two Haven towns ... The map creature dwelling helps, but the huge quantities come from the second town , not from the dwelling!

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