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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: more than 1 schools of magic ?! is it worthed :)?
Thread: more than 1 schools of magic ?! is it worthed :)?
TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted July 25, 2006 04:02 PM

Poll Question:
more than 1 schools of magic ?! is it worthed :)?

I wonder if it is worthed specialising in more than one school of magic. It is such a waste o levels ?! Some towns like Academy or Necropolis, might seem to need that... but is it trully the best thing to do? Remember that you can cast only one magic / turn ... so it doesn't matter so much the quantity of the spells , as the quality does !

Vote and sustain your point of view please

Responses:
yes
no
sometimes
 View Results!

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caligno
caligno


Hired Hero
If zombies only had brains
posted July 25, 2006 06:23 PM

I personally (when playing with Dungeon or Academy and even sometimes Necro) like to mix Destructive with Light magic.  Light magic with the Master abilities (wrath particularly) allow you to buff all your troops with only using 1/2 your initiative giving you plenty of time to cast Destructive spells and allowing your creatures to hit harder and live longer.

Granted if you're town isn't prone to light magic it can be more difficult to get the abilities that you want, but the majority of the abilities (haste, divine strength, stoneskin (or whatever its called now)) are lower tier abilities so they are more likely to pop up (especially with library if your academy).

In some cases it is more advantageous to only pick one type of magic and use the other slots for passive abilities but mixing can help a lot as well.

Thats my 2 cents.

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Top-Rob
Top-Rob


Hired Hero
posted July 25, 2006 06:41 PM

Well, when playing undead I like to go for Summoning and Dark magic.

When I play Academy I like to go 2 or even 3 schools of magic too. Of course you're limited in the number of spells you can use, but keep in mind that it's little use to cast mass haste two times right after each other, but casting both mass haste and mass respectively rocks . So the importance of having more schools of magic is so you can choose the OPTIMAL spell for every situation instead of 'just using that one because it's the best one of the three spells I got' ;-)
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Betruger
Betruger


Known Hero
empowered mind
posted July 25, 2006 06:51 PM
Edited by Betruger at 19:02, 25 Jul 2006.

I'd say choosing 2 schools of magic has most use while playing sylvan.
Why? Their primary skill is defence and secondary is knowdlege.
That's why their attack skill sucks, and why the buffs from light-magic school are so useful.
They always have plenty of knowdlege and therefore will have lots of mana.
The Sylvan mage's guild concentrates on light and destructive so if a Sylvan hero has expert light AND expert destructive, he can cast 2 mass buffs on the first turn (remember that casting mass spells takes only half of the initiative) and then repeatedly casting some high damage destructive spells.

The only problem is spell power, but you should aim to get that from artifacts / places on the map. In any case, meteor shower does lots of damage even with moderately low spell power.

Oh, and last but not the least: Remember about imbue arrow skill. I know that it has been said thousands of times but imbued meteor shower + rain of arrows really do MASSIVE ammounts of damage. And it's not so difficult to pull it off as it may appear.


As for other factions, I think that necro could surely benefit from dark + summoning (as necro guild concentrates on them), or destructive + summoning because necros have such a huge spellpower always (destructive is therefore useful provided he can find some good destructive spells somewhere, like from scrolls or from utopia).

The rest is happy with one school of magic I guess.

Worth remembering is of course, that in order to be able to effectively cast mass buffs, or mass curses you need at least 4 level-ups which is a LOT, as most of games end with heroes around lvl 15 - 20 and I'm talking about long games here.

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 25, 2006 08:08 PM
Edited by Shauku83 at 20:09, 25 Jul 2006.

With Academy you really can't go on with only one school IMO. Light isn't enough on its own etc. With others it depends, second magic school isn't what I am aiming for if i already have one.

For Inferno I would rarely take 2, and never for Haven. Others like Necro can get 2 easier. Sylvan not often because they have to recast Light (my preferred school for them) spells often cause of low spellpower, neither Dungeon because Destruction overshadows other schools too bluntly.

And no, you don't need Expert to make Light and Dark spells effective, Advanced & mass will do fine, so 3 levels. Summoning pretty much requires Expert to get anything out of it, Destructive gets better as approaching Expert, but is useful even on Basic.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 25, 2006 08:59 PM

Light Magic goes with everything.

No ... or yes ... I usually use any combo of Light Magic, Dark Magic and Destructive Magic. Occasionally even all three of them. In late game, Mass Haste + Mass Slow + Mass Divine Strength + Mass Curse makes for a very nasty combo. Sorcery helps out on making you have turns more quickly to cast. And Destructive Magic is very usefull in early game, and Master Of Ice is an ability I find usefull through the entire game.

As for Summoning Magic I say ... why bother.

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caligno
caligno


Hired Hero
If zombies only had brains
posted July 25, 2006 09:16 PM

Quote:
As for Summoning Magic I say ... why bother.


I agree that summoning magic is less versatile than the other magic trees, however it does have its uses.

Arcane armor and Phoenix are far from useless given the right situation.  And Summon elementals, although normally not a huge advantage do give you some extra units to absorb/deal damage if the battle is close.

Phantom image... well we all know about that...

The level 1 and 2 spells are less useful (except raise dead to necro's).  Fist of Wrath, although pitiful damage is somewhat useful when fighting a stack of black dragons, although Light magic could be put to better use.  Fire wall has its uses in siege defense, block up some holes and deal a little extra damage for the ground units coming in.

Not the best tree but I wouldn't say useless.

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Betruger
Betruger


Known Hero
empowered mind
posted July 25, 2006 10:12 PM

What do you mean why bother? It is a must for necro, Raise Dead without summoning magic is quite weak.

As for academy going for more than one school of magic. Well...
In late game battles destructive spells from lvl 1-3 don't do so much damage. There is a huge difference between fireball and meteor for instance.
So since academy is not likely to get any high level damaging spell I'd just go with light magic I guess. Although I can see that this is also not so good as it doesn't use those huge stockpiles of mana wizards get.

So really I'm not sure about academy, it's the worst town imo because of their ridiculously expensive and weak units, and light/summoning magic in guild.

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 25, 2006 11:13 PM

Quote:
What do you mean why bother? It is a must for necro, Raise Dead without summoning magic is quite weak.

As for academy going for more than one school of magic. Well...
In late game battles destructive spells from lvl 1-3 don't do so much damage. There is a huge difference between fireball and meteor for instance.
So since academy is not likely to get any high level damaging spell I'd just go with light magic I guess. Although I can see that this is also not so good as it doesn't use those huge stockpiles of mana wizards get.

So really I'm not sure about academy, it's the worst town imo because of their ridiculously expensive and weak units, and light/summoning magic in guild.


Summoning for other towns is quite in the *why bother* section, sadly cause I kinda like it.
Academy can get either Destructive or Dark up to 5th level in addition to Summoning and Light. So any Magic works for Wizard, actually. If you get destructive for level 4, you will get a Dark Magic spell for the 5th and vice versa. And yes, because of that huge mana it is quite wise to go with another school (IMO again)

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Betruger
Betruger


Known Hero
empowered mind
posted July 26, 2006 12:06 AM
Edited by Betruger at 00:10, 26 Jul 2006.

Quote:

Academy can get either Destructive or Dark up to 5th level in addition to Summoning and Light. So any Magic works for Wizard, actually. If you get destructive for level 4, you will get a Dark Magic spell for the 5th and vice versa.


Are you sure of that? It seemed to me that they get additional spell of each level completly at random. If what you're saying is true then maybe it really is wise to choose another magic school but only after building the guild to lvl 4 at least.

But aside from everything else, building magic guild to lvl 4 may in fact be a huge problem for academy, as they will almost certainly lack gems. And ore.

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 26, 2006 12:46 AM
Edited by Shauku83 at 00:49, 26 Jul 2006.

Quote:
Quote:

Academy can get either Destructive or Dark up to 5th level in addition to Summoning and Light. So any Magic works for Wizard, actually. If you get destructive for level 4, you will get a Dark Magic spell for the 5th and vice versa.


Are you sure of that? It seemed to me that they get additional spell of each level completly at random. If what you're saying is true then maybe it really is wise to choose another magic school but only after building the guild to lvl 4 at least.

But aside from everything else, building magic guild to lvl 4 may in fact be a huge problem for academy, as they will almost certainly lack gems. And ore.


Well IMHO you don't need the level 5 spells for making a spellschool effective, in many games I sometimes don't get to building level 5 Mage Guild and I don't base my skill selection only after I have built level 4 Mage Guild. It would be too late, because level-ups would be less frequent and I wouldn't probably be offered the appropriate school either. So basing magic on earlier levels is quite necessary. For example if I have Slow, Decay and Confusion on dark Magic, and Eldrich, Ice Bolt and Circle of Winter on Destructive, I could go with either of these ones. I'd say that Mass Confusion will get me farther than Blind from level 4.

The additional spell is either Dark or Destructive, Summoning and Light have the fixed value of 1/level. Actually, on lower levels 1-3 you can even get 2 Destructive spells of the same level (Eldrich Arrow and Stone Spikes, but that will mean that you will get 2 Dark ones in level 2 or in level 3) which is impossible for Summoning and Light. I do not know the code how the spells appear exactly, but from my experience this has been the case so far without exceptions. But this one needs clarification.

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juventas
juventas


Adventuring Hero
posted July 26, 2006 04:00 AM

Spell versatility is probably a lot less useful than you think it is.  In each spell school, there's always a spell you can cast over and over again to good effect:

Light: Resurrect
Dark: Frenzy/Blind/Puppet master
Summoning: Phantom Forces/Arcane armor/Raise Dead
Destructive: Pick one

So, while you can adapt to a situation better with versatility, you can't use both magic schools at the same time.  For example, if you choose Light and Dark, you can cast Mass Haste and Mass Slow.  But with Light and Leadership, you can cast Mass Haste and Mass Righteous Might and you get good morale.  Remember, you are replacing a skill that is always active with a magic school that is only activated once your hero gets a turn.

The only exception I can think of is the campaign, where you have to scrounge for every last unit.  That way, getting something like Resurrect/Raise Dead may make your life easier, no matter what faction you play.
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scooter_me
scooter_me


Adventuring Hero
posted July 26, 2006 04:41 AM
Edited by scooter_me at 04:42, 26 Jul 2006.

i only play warlock, so i only got for destructive magic... this is because i think i NEED

- Logistics (for teleport assault [hydras] and overall overworld map advantage)
- irrisitable magic (duh)
- war machines (that earthquake special is great, expecially for early game seiges)
- enlightenment (like seriously. your level 20 will be like a lvl 30 stats wise)
- sorcery (more spells for lower cost, and you can know all lvl 3 spells YAY. now we can get MORE destruction)

they're just my preferances. so 1 school of magic for me

i used to go with summoning magic because in this game guide i bought for 30 bucks, it said that the adventure spells were in the summoning magic section. it ALSO said ancient treants have 120 health and black dragons have 200 health. it also said that heroes with creature specialities get bonus to att and def every 3 levels, not 2... it tricked me a lot in my first few games.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted July 26, 2006 10:09 AM

Quote:
Spell versatility is probably a lot less useful than you think it is.  In each spell school, there's always a spell you can cast over and over again to good effect:

Light: Resurrect
Dark: Frenzy/Blind/Puppet master
Summoning: Phantom Forces/Arcane armor/Raise Dead
Destructive: Pick one

So, while you can adapt to a situation better with versatility, you can't use both magic schools at the same time.  For example, if you choose Light and Dark, you can cast Mass Haste and Mass Slow.  But with Light and Leadership, you can cast Mass Haste and Mass Righteous Might and you get good morale.  Remember, you are replacing a skill that is always active with a magic school that is only activated once your hero gets a turn.

The only exception I can think of is the campaign, where you have to scrounge for every last unit.  That way, getting something like Resurrect/Raise Dead may make your life easier, no matter what faction you play.


it's like you are in my head ... that's exactly what I was thinking when I started this poll . I must say I did not vote yet, cause i am not sure if no is a totally corect answer.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted July 26, 2006 10:16 AM
Edited by TowerLord at 10:18, 26 Jul 2006.

Let's think about the following situation:

You are Vladimir, and you start with Summoning Magic.
And you get Phantom Forces or Summon Phoenix in your mage guild.

So you will have 2 main spells to cast :

Animate Dead & Phantom Forces or
Animate Dead & Summon Phoenix ?

and you also have some lvl 1-2 spells like that always usefull cleansing.

Is it worther to waste another 4~5 levels to get Dark Magic ?! Or is it better to take some "passive" skill and rely on your great animation and Phantom or Phoenix(or maybe both )?

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 26, 2006 10:21 AM

Quote:
Spell versatility is probably a lot less useful than you think it is.  In each spell school, there's always a spell you can cast over and over again to good effect...



And that is called *putting all of your eggs in one basket

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rainalcar
rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted July 26, 2006 11:39 AM

They could implement a new skill in the expansion, which would limit the number of times you can use a certain school of magic considering some factors (like SP, knowledge etc) (unlike the specialty of the hero which sucks more than not), and this would force you more to take more than one school. As for the moment, 2 schools are difficult to obtain, and are rarely a must have. Necro will get along with summoning, haven with light, warlock with destruction... etc. just fine.
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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted July 26, 2006 04:00 PM

yep ... it is a bit too much 8-9 skill points to get 2 magic schools.
In H3, with 9 skills you had 2 schools and expert wisdom ... but back then you could have more secondaries

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 26, 2006 06:44 PM

I kinda miss it although the current one is well designed.Back then I would take 2 to 3 schools-maybe that's why I like arcane omniscience
True the level requirements are many and in a town you are mostly restricted as to what will appear in your mage guild so it's not a good idea most times.One has to prioritize the spells he wants so that he can
invest his lvl ups getting the appropriate skills and abilities.For instance I always take expert dark magic with necro and basic summoning(maybe master of life too) for phantom forces on skellies and more effective raise dead.But if the map is big I will probably take more summoning levels for summon elementals/phoenix.Same goes for other skills.In the same situation I will get basic attack minimum with frenzy (archery at my convenience) for my skellies.We are made to skip levels here and there to get the desired effect in time.
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Juoksentelisinkohan?

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