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| Thread: A morality test |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted June 11, 2002 09:53 PM |
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Marion, Litttle John, Sheriff, Robin Hood obviously!
Quote:
Thing is that all of them are bad choices and I at least came up at least many different solutions what I see as "morale" thing. But the problem is that the story itself is lacking dimensions and is very twodimensional and we know that reality isn't like that.
If we look at the story we see that it contains the biggest faults of these kind of stories. It has very unrealistic plot behind it with no choices with characters as they are acting like bunch of ten year olds with no imagination.
Also if you look at the analysis in overall they are mostly very strongly against men and women have much more positive things in descriptions.
Only woman in the story is Marion (or it looks like that). Basically she doesn't do anything but only men do only something to her.
Sha_Men... My friend... I must disagree with you!
Marion is the only one in the story who can & actually does take an action to "fix the problem" "advance the story line" or "correct an injustice", your choice. Everyone else in the story can only take an action based on what she does.
The story appears to be two-dimensional as it is told but we all know the story of Robin Hood and we mentally fill in the missing details automatically.
This unrealistic plot does truly happen in life everyday in every country, we see the brief two-dimensional story in the newspaper and we make judgements based on our own personal morals. People are in fact forced to take an action without any (or few) choices very often in this
life.
We say Marion is a snow! (or hero) or That Sheriff is a b@stard! (or he was just doing his job) or Little John is wonderful! (or a sucker) or Robin DID give to the poor so he is ok! (even if he is a little bit prudish).
In any case.... I want Maid Marion as my woman!
The alternative is: Robin & Little John rot in prison, The Sheriff is free to oppress the people and Marion will probably be forced by the Sheriff at some future point to
give it up anyway!
May Marion & Little John live happily ever after I say!!
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 11, 2002 11:57 PM |
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Edited By: Ichon on 11 Jun 2002
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no...
No, Marion doesn't advance the story all by herself- Little John offers her a choice, just as the Sheriff did, all Marion does is chose between offers, she doesn't initiate anything. The Sheriff(sleeping with him) Robin(abusing her for sleeping with the Sheriff) and Little John(asking her to leave Robin for him) advance the story.
As for relative morality, the story rests on most people being familiar with the fable of Robin Hood. Otherwise, how do we know why Robin and Little John were in Jail? Perhaps they were murderers? The Sheriff abuses his power in asking Marion to sleep with him and if they were murderers is their accomplice if he releases them. Robin repays the supposed devotion of Marion by questioning her love for him, but if Marion did love him then she wouldn't leave him for Little John so easily. Little John isn't Robin's friend if he asks Marion to elope, but the story doesn't say they are friends, just that they are in jail at the same time, so we assume based on the fable that they are friends and acquantainces.
They all take questionable actions, but strictly by what we know in this story Robin is the least morally challenged. Little John next, then Marion, and finally the Sheriff- as to what actions they actually do as related in this story, not what we assume their actions mean based on the fable.
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted June 12, 2002 12:14 AM |
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Quote "The Sheriff of Nottingham captured Little John and Robin Hood and imprisoned them in his maximum-security dungeon. Maid Marion begged the Sheriff for their release, pleading her love for Robin. The Sheriff agreed to release them only if Maid Marion spent the night with him. To this she agreed." Unquote.
Except that;
A. Maid Marion begged the Sheriff to release Robin.
If she had not.... Game over, no story.
B. She then agreed to spend the night with the Sheriff.
If she had not.... Game over, no story.
Without initiation of these two actions there is no story at all.
Result....
Robin & Little John rot in prison.
Sheriff oppresses people.
Marion is gonna get it anyway!
logical heroic conclusion is Marion gives it up for the good of all.
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
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posted June 12, 2002 12:38 AM |
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It specifically said to assume that you don't know the characters or story line. You should read carefully. You are supposed to make your decision that way.
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Go Red Sox!
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 12:44 AM |
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Quote:
Result....
Robin & Little John rot in prison.
Sheriff oppresses people.
Marion is gonna get it anyway!
logical heroic conclusion is Marion gives it up for the good of all.
That is the logical conclusion "if" the sheriff is opressing his people (which it does not say he does) Otherwise marion is just selfish
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 12:44 AM |
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lol
"Except that;
A. Maid Marion begged the Sheriff to release Robin.
If she had not.... Game over, no story.
B. She then agreed to spend the night with the Sheriff.
If she had not.... Game over, no story.
Without initiation of these two actions there is no story at all.
Result....
Robin & Little John rot in prison.
Sheriff oppresses people.
Marion is gonna get it anyway!"
The Sheriff put them in prison, so without him there would be no story. The Sheriff offers her a choice after she begs for Robin's release(which by the way is never explained by this story why Little John should be released also- Marion doesn't love him or at least the story doesn't say she does, but it does say she supposedly wanted Robin's release because she loved him, why should the Sheriff release Little John? Robin abuses Marion and this prompts Little John to offer the next continuation of the story, offering Marion the choice to leave Robin and go away with him. So of 6 main plot points, only 2 of them are initiated by Marion. Yet you give her the credit for the entire thing? LOL This story also doesn't mention what Robin and Little John did to get in prison in the first place and prompt the Sheriff to arrest them.
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted June 12, 2002 01:18 AM |
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Hee hee....
Yes but...... You have to start somewhere!
The ENTRY point to the story is: Robin & Little John are ALREADY in prison. The Sheriff gets no credit because that part is over. Robin & Little John get no credit for ALREADY BEING IN JAIL for whatever activity they were involved in.
We could go all the way back to the beginning of time with previous actions that contributed to the ultimate story. 
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted June 12, 2002 01:24 AM |
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Sorry
I had to reread the story.....
It DOES start with the Sheriffs action...
Crap!...
Now I have to start over ;(
I still like Marion!
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 01:37 AM |
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so you like easy women?
;-)
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted June 12, 2002 05:12 AM |
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Uhhhh..... yeah....
Does'nt everyone??
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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Pepe
Tavern Dweller
Druid seeking for adventure
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posted June 12, 2002 12:10 PM |
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I thinc every one does that.
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Begone Demons!
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SubZero
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 01:54 PM |
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For me...
The problem is that I start to analyzy the whole scene.
I'm not very good reading newspapers as I always notice incorrect information, try to read between lines and so on.
I don't trust anybody but myself and sometimes not even myself. Same thing happens with these tests.
They exist only so people can feel bad themselves so they can start finding "the correct way of morals" or they feel good about themselves when tests give positive outcome.
For me the only result that can come with this test is that the morals are relative or they don't exist at all.
And thanks for the man who said that "morale" means different thing than "moral"...
In finnish the word is one and the same so I'm sorry O'Great humble morale creature telling that I made my huge mistake with my low morals.
Oh wait...I mixed them up again. Or did I? Sorry, too late to change it.
Maybe my moral thinking isn't in very high level...
Now I got it right!
My morale is raising...moron.
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The only Zen you find on the top of mountains is the Zen you bring up there.
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mmontgomery
Hired Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 06:46 PM |
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1) Little John
2) Marion
3) Robin Hood
4) Sherrif of Nottingham
Rationale
1. Little John personifies a redeemer. He understands/overlooks/forgives and perhaps is even grateful for Marion's efforts on his and Robin's behalf. He does not betray Robin; Robin has already rejected Marion. Little John does absolutely nothing immoral.
2. Marion does the wrong thing for the right reason. Her motives are good (hopefully), but unless there was some implicit deadline/danger (like they would be hanged the next morning), she should have explored other alternatives. With no stated danger, the fact that she offered herself that very evening makes one wonder if perhaps she wanted to have sex with the Sherrif, and this gave her a good excuse? That is the problem with such a short synopsis; the motives are not clear. But more likely she acted impulsively, sacrificing herself for the man she loved. Or perhaps there was an unstated danger, in which case she would have acted bravely and unselfishly. If there had been an explicit danger stated, I could have rated her above Little John as making a noble sacrifice, rather than an impulsive mistake.
3. Robin Hood is dispicable in this story. His lack of understanding of Marion's sacrifice, and insulting and rejecting her, makes him almost worse than the Sherif
4. The Sherrif abuses his authority. He may have had a perfectly good reason to lock up Robin and John, but to use the power of his position to extract favors is bad news. And if he felt he was justified in locking up Robin and John in the first place, he is violating his own sense of justice in letting them go in return for sexual favors.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 13, 2002 12:12 AM |
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lol
These thigns are funny cause you can argue endlessly about result; you said it yourself, we don't know what Marion motives were for sleeping with Sheriff so quickly and of the range of possabilities, only 2 or 3 I can think of cast her in a good light. The rest justify Robin in castigating her. But- I have to say if she is willing to abandon Robin so easily after the supposed sacrifice she made to sleep with the Sheriff she is not noble at all and could surpass the Sheriff in dasterdliness.
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mmontgomery
Hired Hero
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posted June 13, 2002 01:11 AM |
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Let's see, Robin calls her a snow and says he does not want to have anything to do with her after she presumably saves his bacon, and you view this as HER abandoning HIM?
Hmmm, I wonder how many of peoples girlfriends would "abandon" their lovers under these conditions?
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted June 13, 2002 01:26 AM |
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Quote:
:LITTLE JOHN, MARION, SHERIFF, ROBIN: You are the slightly romantic realist. You respect truth, and are broadminded and flexible. Whether you are a man or a woman you are probably a happy person. You like people and they can readily make friends with you. You are not very adventurous, but this does not bother you.
...Why thank you!
i have the same choice
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 13, 2002 01:43 AM |
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lover or love
Lovers come and go, but love isn't that fragile. It doesn't matter what Robin said, if he was mad when he said it or even if he wasn't made and totally meant it. If Marion did love him she wouldn't give up just because of a few words, actions mean more and she is the one who slept with someone else, then left her supposed love due to a little disagreement.
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RMS
Responsible
Legendary Hero
-ing yummy foods
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posted June 13, 2002 02:01 AM |
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...although in these false, made up circumstances I would have to take a different opinion, I say it is nonsense. This is not real. What does it matter?
In real life, Robin Hood is awesome, and he's my hero. If he didn't fall into the hands of the despicable person who wrote it, he would pretty much always be the best. Oh, he still is the best, even if...he just always is, so there. You can't get any cooler guy in tight pants than him. Of course, he doesn't necessarily have tight pants...
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This space for rent.
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Avallach
Hired Hero
Disputo ergo sum.
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posted June 13, 2002 05:05 AM |
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Quote:
In real life, Robin Hood is awesome
Perhaps that should be 'in popular legend' . Do we actually know very much about the real Robin Hood?
Little John
The hero of the story. His act was one of kindness, and kindness is good. I like to think of his actions as 'agapé' love at it's finest.
Maid Marion, Robin Hood
I can't decide between these two, so I've put them in alphabetical order . I don't doubt the faithfulness of Marion's heart, nor that she saw it as the only way to save Robin. Nevertheless, I question her judgement, and perhaps her deeper motives. This may sound very strange, but I think that Marion acted selfishly. It sounds preposterous - she gave herself to the Sheriff to save Robin, and yet I call her selfish? The thing is that I think she was acting more out of her own feelings for Robin, and her own despair at seeing him imprisoned, than out of true regard for his feelings and best interests. She could not have been so naive as to think that Robin would be pleased with the sacrifice she made, that he would think the end justified the means. What she did would have utterly shamed him. Given his reaction, the Robin of this story is a proud man, who values his dignity. Marion's actions would have left both pride and dignity devastated. Better that than imprisonment? Perhaps for some, but not for this Robin. He was, I think, too proud though. He did not seem able or willing to see things from Marion's viewpoint, but could only focus on the hurt done to himself. He too then was selfish, seeing in Marion's loss only his own. I don't think that he could have done as Little John did, and if he did I would probably think poorly of him. I could not respect any man who would be grateful for what Marion did, who would think the gain outweighed the loss. But balance was needed. Whatever the affect on their relationship, he should not have treated her so cruelly. All said, both made mistakes, but are deserving more of sympathy than of condemnation.
The Sheriff
And here we have the villain. His crime, as has been said, is twofold: making Marion prostitute herself, and releasing men he viewed as criminals. Either of these would be enough to place him firmly at the bottom.
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"Death slew him not, but he made death his ladder to the skies"
- Edmund Spenser, on the death of Philip Sidney
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 13, 2002 06:23 AM |
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what if...
Marion and Robin have children? Would Little John still be the hero? Just to keep this going... the story doesn't say they do, but it doesn't say they don't either.
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