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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Hero's Attack On Units
Thread: Hero's Attack On Units This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted May 12, 2007 04:38 PM

I do like how it is implemented now though. Without this "not based on HPs and stats" thing, it's like a great balancer. Otherwise, super tough creatures have no hard counter.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 12, 2007 06:18 PM

Quote:
I do like the idea about attack affecting it.  But if you treat it like a Ballista, the enemy's defense should also affect it...


Yes, that would be the most logical implementation. Something like: Damge = 10 x Level, Attack modifier = Attack + Defence vs. target units Defence.
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted May 12, 2007 07:41 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 19:42, 12 May 2007.

I agree that the hero damage should be a fixed number based on the level.
But I don't agree that might heroes should have a higher damage than the magic ones. The might heroes are might, sure, and are more skilled in close combat, but the magic heroes don't attack with a dagger or a sword, they use MAGIC shots. So, either you take attack into consideration for might heroes AND spellpower for magic ones, or you don't include those stats at all.

What I have in mind is this:
- for Knight, Ranger and Demon Lord, the hero's damage is calculated with the formula:
NOTE: hero_att = hero_attack+hero_defense
if hero_att >= target_defense
hero_level*8 * (1+(hero_att-target_defense)*0.05)
else, if hero_att < target_defense
hero_level*8 / (1+(target_defense-hero_att)*0.05)

- for Warlock, Necromancer and Wizard, the hero's damage is calculated with the formula:
hero_level*5 * (1+hero_spellpower*0.05)


As you can see, the might heroes use their attack and defense in the damage calculation, the magic ones use their spellpower and ignore the target's defense (but they use only spellpower while the others attack + defense, and the base damage per level is 5 instead of 8)... anyway, I'm not saying these numbers are perfect

And I don't know what to do with the RuneMage, since the Mammoth is handling the attack

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 12, 2007 08:04 PM

Quote:
And I don't know what to do with the RuneMage, since the Mammoth is handling the attack


10% of stack got trampled

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executor
executor


Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
posted May 12, 2007 08:12 PM

I love your idea ZL.
And for runemage, attack is physical, so go mighty way.
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted May 12, 2007 08:17 PM

Quote:
I love your idea ZL.

Good to know you like it

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 12, 2007 08:35 PM

Quote:
I agree that the hero damage should be a fixed number based on the level.
But I don't agree that might heroes should have a higher damage than the magic ones. The might heroes are might, sure, and are more skilled in close combat, but the magic heroes don't attack with a dagger or a sword, they use MAGIC shots. So, either you take attack into consideration for might heroes AND spellpower for magic ones, or you don't include those stats at all.

What I have in mind is this:
- for Knight, Ranger and Demon Lord, the hero's damage is calculated with the formula:
NOTE: hero_att = hero_attack+hero_defense
if hero_att >= target_defense
hero_level*8 * (1+(hero_att-target_defense)*0.05)
else, if hero_att < target_defense
hero_level*8 / (1+(target_defense-hero_att)*0.05)

- for Warlock, Necromancer and Wizard, the hero's damage is calculated with the formula:
hero_level*5 * (1+hero_spellpower*0.05)


As you can see, the might heroes use their attack and defense in the damage calculation, the magic ones use their spellpower and ignore the target's defense (but they use only spellpower while the others attack + defense, and the base damage per level is 5 instead of 8)... anyway, I'm not saying these numbers are perfect

And I don't know what to do with the RuneMage, since the Mammoth is handling the attack


Interesting idea. I'm not sure I support the separation of Might and Magic heroes like you do, but it's worth considering. Have you made some samlpe tables with damage at various levels of different Hero classes to give an example of damage amounts?

Also, there are a couple of problems in your approach here - making it depend only on Spellpower will give very lowly damage for Wizards - and what about Runemages [semi Might, semi Magic] - where do they fit into this scheme?
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted May 12, 2007 09:12 PM bonus applied.
Edited by ZombieLord at 10:51, 13 May 2007.

Hmm, ok, now that I think more of it, I don't think the might heroes need a damage boost with their defense, since the target's defense is taking into account and thus the might heroes with high defense (Knight) will be more resistant to other heroes direct attacks rather than deal huge damage.

But of course, there is the problem that magic heroes ignore defense (in my idea), and that the Knowledge is not taking into account and thus the Wizard is in disadvantage. But, I have an idea: the Knowledge of the heroes is used the same as the defense for might attacks. That means that the Wizard's troops will be more resistant to other magic heroes' direct attacks. It is logical as well, because having high knowledge of magic makes you able to 'lower' the effect of the enemy's magic shots

Note that even though the might heroes ignore 'knowledge-protection' while the magic heroes ignore defense, the might ones are still in disadvantage, since the creatures already have a defense value in addition to the hero one, but no knowledge value. This means that the magic heroes still need a lower number to multiply per level than the might heroes (like my 8 vs 5 example)

However, these ideas imply that some factions are very deadly against others, and implicitly, some are very weak against others. (deadly and weak only in direct hero attack which is not very important, but anyway)
Example: Necro with high defense and spellpower is the perfect counter against Haven in direct attacks, since the Knight's direct attack damage is lowered by the Necro's defense and the Necro's direct attack deals a good amount of damage because of the high spellpower and ignores Knight's high defense at the same time.
Also, there is the problem that Dungeon is at a disadvantage because the Warlock has high attack for nothing (talking only about direct attacks), since only his spellpower is useful (and his defense and knowledge for incoming attacks - but these are quite low). Not that the Warlock needs the direct attack much with his powerful spells, but anyway
The same for the RuneMage - he has the spellpower for nothing with his direct attack (I chose attack to apply to his damage because there is no spell shot or something similar)

But I don't think that the direct attacks are really THAT important, so the above things are not very deadly IMO.


With these things Sylvan can be considered the most resistant faction from heroes' direct attacks (high def and kn)


Also, I think that Excruciating Strike should ignore 50% of the target's defense (in 40% chances or however they were) rather than dealing double damage. It's more interesting this way. But this is a little off the point


If you have some ideas on how Dungeon and Fortress can 'lose' the disadvantage please share them


I don't know how to make the charts because it depends on the target's defense (might attack) or knowledge (magic attack) and I'm not really good at chart-making, but I'll try... no promises though

EDIT: I made a chart, but it's not about how much damage the hero deals, but about how efficient is a hero against another with the direct attack

The first chart is how much damaging bonus (attack|spellpower / defense|knowledge) does a certain class have against another, the second takes both the damage and surviability into consideration.
NOTE that 400% does NOT mean it deals four times the regular damage, only that it has four times the bonus effect (which is scaled by 0.05 or something like that)

An example how the first chart works: Knight vs Ranger is 67% because the Knight has 30% attack received at level up and the Ranger has 45% defense, and 30/45 = 0.666...; Wizard vs Knight is 200% because the Wizard has 30% spellpower and the Knight 15% knowledge

Knight vs Ranger = 67%
Knight vs Wizard = 200%
Knight vs Warlock = 300%
Knight vs Necromancer = 100%
Knight vs Demon Lord = 300%
Knight vs Rune Mage = 100%

Ranger vs Knight = 33%
Ranger vs Wizard = 100%
Ranger vs Warlock = 150%
Ranger vs Necromancer = 50%
Ranger vs Demon Lord = 150%
Ranger vs Rune Mage = 50%

Wizard vs Knight = 200%
Wizard vs Ranger = 100%
Wizard vs Warlock = 200%
Wizard vs Necromancer = 200%
Wizard vs Demon Lord = 100%
Wizard vs Rune Mage = 150%

Warlock vs Knight = 300%
Warlock vs Ranger = 150%
Warlock vs Wizard = 100%
Warlock vs Necromancer = 300%
Warlock vs Demon Lord = 150%
Warlock vs Rune Mage = 225%

Necromancer vs Knight = 300%
Necromancer vs Ranger = 150%
Necromancer vs Wizard = 100%
Necromancer vs Warlock = 300%
Necromancer vs Demon Lord = 150%
Necromancer vs Rune Mage = 225%

Demon Lord vs Knight = 100%
Demon Lord vs Ranger = 100%
Demon Lord vs Wizard = 300%
Demon Lord vs Warlock = 450%
Demon Lord vs Necromancer = 150%
Demon Lord vs Rune Mage = 150%

Rune Mage vs Knight = 44%
Rune Mage vs Ranger = 44%
Rune Mage vs Wizard = 133%
Rune Mage vs Warlock = 200%
Rune Mage vs Necromancer = 67%
Rune Mage vs Demon Lord = 200%


And now the second chart:
Knight - Ranger = 200% (since 67/33 = 2)
Knight - Wizard = 100%
Knight - Warlock = 100%
Knight - Necromancer = 33%
Knight - Demon Lord = 300%
Knight - Rune Mage = 225%

Ranger - Knight = 50%
Ranger - Wizard = 100%
Ranger - Warlock = 100%
Ranger - Necromancer = 33%
Ranger - Demon Lord = 150%
Ranger - Rune Mage = 112.5%

Wizard - Knight = 100%
Wizard - Ranger = 100%
Wizard - Warlock = 200%
Wizard - Necromancer = 200%
Wizard - Demon Lord = 33%
Wizard - Rune Mage = 112.5%

Warlock - Knight = 100%
Warlock - Ranger = 100%
Warlock - Wizard = 50%
Warlock - Necromancer = 100%
Warlock - Demon Lord = 33%
Warlock - Rune Mage = 112.5%

Necromancer - Knight = 300%
Necromancer - Ranger = 300%
Necromancer - Wizard = 50%
Necromancer - Warlock = 100%
Necromancer - Demon Lord = 100%
Necromancer - Rune Mage = 337.5%

Demon Lord - Knight = 33%
Demon Lord - Ranger = 67%
Demon Lord - Wizard = 300%
Demon Lord - Warlock = 300%
Demon Lord - Necromancer = 100%
Demon Lord - Rune Mage = 75%

Rune Mage - Knight = 44%
Rune Mage - Ranger = 88%
Rune Mage - Wizard = 88%
Rune Mage - Warlock = 88%
Rune Mage - Necromancer = 29%
Rune Mage - Demon Lord = 133%

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted May 12, 2007 10:19 PM

demon lord vs. warlock. -

Add excruciating strike and the mark's base bonus for ~1000% damage

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 13, 2007 02:05 AM

Quote:
Hmm, ok, now that I think more of it, I don't think the might heroes need a damage boost with their defense, since the target's defense is taking into account and thus the might heroes with high defense (Knight) will be more resistant to other heroes direct attacks rather than deal huge damage.

But of course, there is the problem that magic heroes ignore defense (in my idea), and that the Knowledge is not taking into account and thus the Wizard is in disadvantage. But, I have an idea: the Knowledge of the heroes is used the same as the defense for might attacks. That means that the Wizard's troops will be more resistant to other magic heroes' direct attacks. It is logical as well, because having high knowledge of magic makes you able to 'lower' the effect of the enemy's magic shots

Note that even though the might heroes ignore 'knowledge-protection' while the magic heroes ignore defense, the might ones are still in disadvantage, since the creatures already have a defense value in addition to the hero one, but no knowledge value. This means that the magic heroes still need a lower number to multiply per level than the might heroes (like my 8 vs 5 example).


Yes, I agree that the idea of using Knowledge as magical defence is both straight foward and appealing.

Quote:
However, these ideas imply that some factions are very deadly against others, and implicitly, some are very weak against others. (deadly and weak only in direct hero attack which is not very important, but anyway)
Example: Necro with high defense and spellpower is the perfect counter against Haven in direct attacks, since the Knight's direct attack damage is lowered by the Necro's defense and the Necro's direct attack deals a good amount of damage because of the high spellpower and ignores Knight's high defense at the same time.
Also, there is the problem that Dungeon is at a disadvantage because the Warlock has high attack for nothing (talking only about direct attacks), since only his spellpower is useful (and his defense and knowledge for incoming attacks - but these are quite low). Not that the Warlock needs the direct attack much with his powerful spells, but anyway
The same for the RuneMage - he has the spellpower for nothing with his direct attack (I chose attack to apply to his damage because there is no spell shot or something similar)

But I don't think that the direct attacks are really THAT important, so the above things are not very deadly IMO.


The direct attack is perhaps not vital, but if one wants to rework it, it should be done properly. Therefore, one should at least evaluate the differences before accepting them.

I think it's ok that some factions are stronger against each other than others - but obviously, the Warlocks low Defence and Knowledge is going to make him extremely vulnerable in combat. I have, however, trouble feeling real pitty for him, considering the carnage he can cause with his spells. And his high Spellpower will make him yield high damage as well, so that balanced out.

To make things more varied, if not necessarily more even, one could even suggest that each Hero has two possible attacks at his disposal: A melee "Might" attack and a ranged "Magic" attack. That would allow for making things like range and obstacles (city walls) apply to Hero attack! Anybody ever wondered about how the Knight manages to gallop right through those city walls? In this way, if path is blocked, Hero can choose to use Ranged attack (magic), where normal range penalty applies [this might even account for the lower damage multiplier ]. Of course, to make such a change would be rather radical, but it would actually make sense.

Quote:
EDIT: I made a chart, but it's not about how much damage the hero deals, but about how efficient is a hero against another with the direct attack


Great charts, that is one way of evaluating the situation. I cannot quite decide whether the Demon Lord vs. Warlock issue is a problem.

Another important factor to take into account would be for each faction average attack multiplier of specified faction vs. other factions / average attack multiplier of other factions vs. specified faction. Thus, Demon Lord generally yields very high damage multipliers vs. other factions, but also suffer very high damage from them, and thus it evens out. Ratios should be as close to 1 as possible to be "ballanced", numbers > 1 implies faction deals high damage and suffer low damage, number < 1 the opposite. The numbers for the factions are:

Knight: 1.09
Ranger: 0.87
Wizard: 1.02
Warlock: 0.76
Necromancer: 1.41
Demon Lord: 1.19
Rune Mage (might): 0.76
Rune Mage (magic): 1.01

Numbers show that actually Necropolis is most overpowered, dealing a lot more damage than it suffers (due to high Spell Power and Defence), whereas Warlock and Rune Mage (w. Might attack) deal lowest damage compared to damage suffered (for Warlock due to poor defensive properties). Rune Mage is more ballanced with Magic attack than with Might. This is just one of many ways to evaluate the numbers.
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 13, 2007 02:18 AM

I would like to notice that hero's stats is one thing and certain units is another. You can either attack low lvl unit with low defense or high lvl unit with high defense.  If a statistics isnt in favour and you wont be dealing a lot of damage you can always attack lower lvl thig to make more damage.

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TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted May 13, 2007 02:31 AM

Wait, instead of doing something confusing like Attack/Defense for some and SP/KN for others, why not let hero attack = Attack + Spellpower and creature defense be Defense of Creature + Defense of Hero + Knowledge of hero? That way, everyone is under the same rule and it's more fair to say Runemages who have their stats distributed more evenly.

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Pomo
Pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted May 13, 2007 06:28 AM

Well just to point something out about ZL's chart, the % are misleading if you interpret them as '% of normal damage dealt' because really it's not the ratio of knights attack to warlocks def for example, it's the difference multiplied by 5%. So say that a demonlord at level 20 has 12 attack and a warlock has 3 defence; under ZL's proposal, the damage is not 400% of base, it's 1+9*.05=145% of base.

The idea seems excellent, the chart is a bit misleading about the consequences imho.

Oh and btw, I personally think that hero attack as it stands is one of the most gimp features of the game

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted May 13, 2007 10:48 AM

@Pomo:
- you're right, my chart doesn't show '% of normal damage dealt', it shows how much % bonus has the respective hero against the other. That bonus is not scaled with 0.05 or whatever

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted May 13, 2007 11:05 AM

Wow man, cool suggestions ZL

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 13, 2007 12:28 PM

You might be right that there could be more precise ways to evaluate the numbers, Pomo. I tried to make a table here, doing the following calculation:

Might Attack vs. a creature of defence 10. Damage is calculated for Hero level 21, base damage is 10 x Level. Attacking Hero's Attack is meassured against Defending Hero's Defence + target's Defence (10).

Magic Attack negates creature natural defence. Damage is calculated for Hero level 21, base damage is 6 x Level (number is chosen to give best ballance). Attacking Hero's Spellpower messured against Defending Hero's Knowledge.

The top table below shows the damage done by the respective Hero classes when Hero in left column attacks Hero in top row. Knight, Ranger, Demon Lord and Rune Mage (I) uses Might attack; Wizard, Warlock, Necromancer and Rune Mage (A) uses Magic attack.

The bottom table shows the ratio of Attacker Hero damage to Defender Hero damage. Thus, the Ranger vs. Knight field shows 0.89 because Ranger will do 111 damage to Knight, whereas Knight will do 124 damage to Ranger (see top table); thus Ranger / Knight is 0.89. Knight vs. Ranger is the inverse (1.12).

The most interesting thing in this context are the numbers in the Green boxes to the right. This displays for each class the Average Damage Done / Average Damage Received. A ratio of 1 is ideal in the sense that this means that the class receives and yields the same amount of damage, ratios > 1 means more damage is done than is received (providing the class an advantage in combat). A small variation is seen depending on whether the Rune Mage does Might or Magic damage, Might Damage actually seems to yield the most ballanced fit, with only limited variation of the ratios from 1.

The bottom table also shows that some classes will be unevenly matched - Demon Lord vs. Wizard is actually the most unfair match, with Demon Lord doing 50 % more damage than Wizard does - but also Demon Lord vs. Warlock (+32 % damage), Necromancer vs. Knight (+26 % damage) and Necromancer vs. Ranger (+22 % damage). Might Rune Mage will also have a hard time vs. Necromancer (-22 % damage) but overall, the variations are not as extreme as the +450 % of ZombieLords calculations might indicate.


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