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Heroes Community > WCL Heroes 3 Tournament > Thread: Welcome to HoMM3 tournament - World Cup league!
Thread: Welcome to HoMM3 tournament - World Cup league! This thread is 15 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 · NEXT»
sag
sag


Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
posted December 18, 2006 01:59 PM bonus applied by angelito on 13 Nov 2010.
Edited by angelito at 10:02, 05 Oct 2008.

Welcome to HoMM3 tournament - World Cup league!

Dear HeroesCommunity team!

World Cup league (WCL) tournament is active for more than 1 year, so i decided to update this first post with latest information, original version of this post is at bottom.

World Cup League tournament is for all online Heroes of Might and Magic III players. This is a fun and simple ranks system that we hope is enjoyable for all our members.

Why should people play for rating? Well, there are many reasons, few of them:
- more people will know about you
- it will be easier for you to find players online in Gamespy
- you will enhance level of your game, your skills by playing vs best players

Some statistics of first year:
- more than 700 players from 60 different countries joined WCL
- more than 2000 games played
- website is available in 3 languages

Navigation on WCL website:
"Rules and info"
Rules and information page. Here are listed mandatory and optional (default) rules. Most of skilled players use default WCL rules or similar.
"Register"
New players can quickly register here (get login/password).
"Player search"
Use this page to find details about some player by his nickname. You may enter part of nickname.
"Tournaments"
On this page there is information about sub-tournaments available at the moment.
"Report game"
When you report games, your rating changes. If you wish to be the best player - try to play with players with higher rating.
"All games"
At this page you can find detailed information about recent games. Use filter if you need info on definite map or player
"Rankings"
Very important page, it shows current rankings of all active players. Just registered players with 0 games are not shown there.
"The Great Hall"
This page is for recongnition of great players and great battles. Look into saves of great battles between best worldwide players.
"The banished"
Cheaters list. Fortunately, not many records there
"Downloads"
At this page you can download templates, patches, training maps and useful tools (Autosaver).
"Message board"
Ask your questions, share your ideas and leave feedback at this page.
"Statistics"
General statistics about best towns, best heroes and maps.
"Knowledge test"
You have played HoMM3 for ages? Check your knowledge using Knowledge test
"WCL Online Calendar"
WCL Calendar is new service, visit it HERE. This service allows players from different countries and different time zones to publish their estimated presence in online.
"Tournament Edition of HoMM3"
Best version of HoMM3 that is very new and gaining popularity. Wanna know why? Click HERE
"Rule Profile"
Many of you know that players normally create lots of rules in order to make game more balanced. These "player-made" rules are sometimes incomplete or just not clear. It's hard to remember exact rule set for each player and it's too long to discuss all precise rules each time before the game. Rule Profile page allows to store rule settings for each player and each template.
"Sacrifice calculator"
Calculator for "Sacrifice" spell can be fould HERE




--- original message: ---
Dear HeroesCommunity team!

i missed TOH and WW tournaments a lot, therefore i decided to create new tournament "World Cup league (WCL)".

Let's make it fresh and attractive!

New season will be open January 1, 2007.

Right now demo version is here: http://www.heroes-iii.com/. Graphics will be replaced later.

Only "Regular" tournament will be available at launch. Random Discovery and Tribes - to follow later.

There were at least 2 problems in TOH:
- strong players with high rating would have prefered not to play with novice or low-rating players because they had risk to loose too many points and gain too little points in case of victory.
- novice players often quit without finishing the game and with no intention to continue it later.

I tried to fix both problems in my tournament:

Firstly,

Rating formula is going to be as in TOH (rating=rating+30+0.05*difference) with changes:
1) minimum bonus for winner is 10 points.
EDITED 14 Feb 2007: 5 points.
2) no penalty for loss.
EDITED 14 Feb 2007: maximum penalty 20 points.

I hope this change will allow to attract more players into the game. If you have any good ideas - let's discuss in this post, i still may change formula if needed.

In order to fix second problem (quitters) i decided to make changes into reporting system. Procedure is the following:
1) any player submits game description BEFORE the game starts. Link: http://www.heroes-iii.com/prereport.php
2) opponent accepts (confirms) this game. Link: http://www.heroes-iii.com/postreport.php

3) ANY player after the game submits final confirmation (game results)
Link: http://www.heroes-iii.com/postreport.php

If someone disagree with report - he will be allowed to submit ESCALATION request (not ready yet, but i hope it will be done before start of new season). In this case winner will be deducted of his bonus points for this game until escalation will be reviewed and decision will be made.

Attention: During registration email is NOT required (in demo version). All details (except password) are visible to all visitors, not only to admin. Perhaps i will add "hidden email" for privacy.

3FFA and 2vs2 reports will be added a bit later.

Notice: i saw final confirmation bug (opponent's name is the same as submitter name), i will fix it asap.

Please share your thoughts about tournament, tell about possible bugs, register and report games! Welcome and good luck!

Regards, Sergey

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted December 18, 2006 02:10 PM
Edited by angelito at 19:02, 18 Dec 2006.

Made this thread sticky, so it won't get lost and hopefully many players will see it and register.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted December 18, 2006 04:39 PM

First of all I will thank you for this great intiative.

I think you are right about the problems toh had with their pointsystem, but with the changes you made i think you will run into new problems. Your system rewards "easy wins" to much imho. The reward for beating a strong player is very little compared to beating a weaker player. So the ranking list will look to much like WWs ranking list looked. The ones with most games at the top.

What i suggest is changing the minimum points, you can gain from a win, from 10 to 5 points. From my own experience this should be enough points for a high ranked player to want to play a lower ranked player if he doesnt risk losing to much. Besides that I think you should still lose points from a loss, but there should be a maximum, for example 20 points. This way I think all games should be attractive ranking wise, without giving to many cheap points away.
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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Jammer0
Jammer0

Tavern Dweller
posted December 19, 2006 07:53 PM

A thought on Quitters.

My main problem with quitters is not getting points for that game but knowing who they are so I don't waste time playing them. Perhaps you could address this by keeping the actual report simple but haveing a seperate place to report the handel of someone who quite on you. You could then place an quitter icon on a player that has say 10 quits. Better yet would be to place that icon on the player if the number of quits exceeds 5% of his total games. Not sure if you could automate that.

Anyhow, my main point is WOOHOO.. we have a new tournament!!!
____________

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sag
sag


Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
posted December 19, 2006 11:43 PM

1) to Maretti : I agree, your formula proposal is pretty good. If no one propose better - then i will change it to yours.

2)to Jammer : I see that many of new players don't finish the game. They just got 2-3 hours of free time and are confused by patches, versions, tournaments...the objective is not to ignore them but teach them, explain rules, etc...hard work, but the only way out. If we would not attract NEW players then homm3 will disappear in few months. I suggest to to mark as "quitter" only those players that play here for a long period of time without any honor/skill improvements...Easy to implement (from programming point of view). However, not everybody will be allowed to give "quitter" label, only experienced players

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted December 20, 2006 05:26 PM

SAG. If you want to atract new players there must be very explicit tutorial section. Something like the library here, but more graphic, with hundreds of screens, and even videous (like short movie how you fight a crypt week 1).  You know - in recent days people are spoiled, they dont read unless they are very interested. And if we are talking about new player we must presume they are not that interested in the begining. So we must make it interesting and easy for them - multimedia - pictures, screens, step by step tutorials, movies, charts...

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SAG
SAG


Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
posted December 21, 2006 04:53 PM

re to Liophy: agree, i separated discussion into new thread How to attract more people into H3

update on tourney:
1) report page had a big bug, fixed.
2) i plan to include "Chaos town selection" page. This is more balancing way to select starting towns than "full random" and more flexible and interesting than just selecting any town that you like. Players say (one by one) which town will NOT be available as starting - until 3 towns are left. Then 1st player selects starting town from these 3 towns and 2nd player selects from rest 2 towns.
3) i added Sacrifice calculator, may be useful: http://randommaps.siteburg.com/sacr.php
4) "offline rooms" will be developed in order to show people when you are going to come to GS and set appointements for games.
5) ranks will be added later when more game will be reported: Lieutenant, Captain , Major, Colonel, General.
6) "prestige" points - would be nice to add them, but how to calculate them, what will they show? what about import of "prestige" points from TOH?

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted December 21, 2006 08:00 PM

Do you think about some kind of "Honor Council"?
Hopefully not needed, but we all know what happens when it is getting "serious". And there are not only nice guys on Gamespy lately..
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted December 21, 2006 08:04 PM
Edited by william at 20:15, 21 Dec 2006.

I think that this is an alright idea, and when I get my homm3 complete working again and fix the router thing and all that, then I will be happy to participate, although I kinda suck at this game with online

Well an Honour Council worked for TOH when that was with HOMM3, and it is now with HOMM5, so maybe, if enough people get involved with this, an Honour Council could also be with this new tournament aswell.

Perhaps also, maybe before doing a game, make sure that player's both have enough time to finish the game or get very close to it.

Do not start a game, where you will only be able to play maybe 30 minutes or an hour of it, because with an hour, you wont get that very far into the game, well atleast I don't think so, perhaps discuss with your opponent how much free time you both have, instead of rushing into a game, and then 30 minutes later having to go somewhere for like half of the day.

Maybe also a discussion about everyone's various timezones, just so that people from across the world do not get mixed up with different times and all that, maybe make it suitable times for both player's, that would make it easier and a little more fun to play, well maybe, but it would make it a little more organixed.

Maybe something from the TOH could also be with this aswell, maybe ranks and all that for the amount of wins that you have.

Maybe if you have 100 wins your rank will be: Veteran

If you have 1000 wins your rank will be: Expert or something like that.

Perhaps ranks representing different creatures in the game, for example:

10 Wins: Peasant
20 Wins: Sprite
30 Wins: Gargoyle
40 Wins: Grand Elf
50 Wins: ArchMage

Those could perhaps be for the lower ranks, and maybe some suggestions for higher ranks:

500 Wins: Ghost Dragon
600 Wins: ArchDevil
700 Wins: Gold Dragon
800 Wins: Ancient Behemoth
900 Wins: Chaos Hydra
1000 Wins: Black Dragon Could also be 1500 Wins rank
1500 Wins: Titan Could also be 1000 Wins rank
2000 Wins: ArchAngel
3000 Wins: Azure Dragon


Maybe something like that, well I am not sure if anyone has even got upto 3000 Wins, but those were just examples.

But it would perhaps be nice to see a Ranks thing similar to that of the TOH, but not exactly the same ofcourse.

But the ranks would be pretty cool for this new tournament thing, but might get a little complicated, and I do not know how exactly you would  be able to do it.

Also what about people abusing the wins/loss reports thing?

I have seen many people abuse it before, and  fight over the wins and losses, so that would make the Honour Council needed, exactly for scenarios like this, it would come in very handy in my opinion.
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted December 21, 2006 10:04 PM

This is a great initiative, SAG. I guess I'll join, though I don't know how often I'll be able to find enough time to play a scenario. I also need to set up my router but that's just a technical issue I should be able to deal with.

The rating system: Should the rating system award players that play alot? Is 100 wins 100 losses better that 50/50?
In chess (and possible other games) you use the ELO system. The idea is that you have an expected score based on your rating compared to the opponent(s). If you score above your rating improves, if you score below it decreases. But the 'sum' of all adjustments is zero.
It's a good rating system, but perhaps it would be difficult to use because in chess the new rating is first resolved after a tournament meaning the player has played several matches. The maximum loss/gain is bounded.

However I like the aspect that the loser will lose rating points, but perhaps there should be a minimum rating value one can't drop below.

Win frequency should not be used. Winning against a strong player should be rewarded.

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted December 21, 2006 11:47 PM

Quote:

2000 Wins: ArchAngel
3000 Wins: Azure Dragon



And how would you rate 50 000 wins?

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted December 22, 2006 12:38 AM

I think you have done a great job so far Sag. I see severel improvments from toh.

One thing I would like to see is that, when you report what map you will play, you should be able to report different templates instead of just "random xl". Since everybody plays randoms this will be whats relevant to see what your opponent normally plays.

Some explanation on the points system:

Winning will mean your new rating = old rating + 30 + 0.05*difference between your and your opponents old rating. But minimum 5 points.

Losing will mean your new rating = old rating - 20 + 0.05*difference between your and your opponents old rating. But maximum loss is 20 points.

Example 1: A with rating 1000 beats B with rating 1000. A will gain 30 points while B will lose 20 points. This means that 10 points will be added to the total amount of points in the tournament for this game. If they play each other 100 times and win 50 each in the right order they will end up with 1500 points each. So this part of the point system rewards people who play many games (in a reasonable size imo)

Example 2: A with rating 2000 beats B with rating 1000. A will gain 5 points because this is the minimum amount of points you can get from a win. The 5 points is the motivation to play the underdog. In Toh you got 0 points from a win like that. B will lose 0 points.

Example 3: A with rating 1000 beats B with rating 2000. A will gain 80 points. B will only lose 20 points. In Toh he would have lost 70.

As I said in another post I dont think this pointsystem should  deter anyone from playing anyone.

About the chess pointsystem: In chess there is no luck factor, in H3 there is a pretty big luck factor. A strong chessplayer dosent have much reson not to play a lower ranked player (if the ranking tells the truth). In H3 it makes sense avoiding such games. The risk of losing is simply to big compared to what you can gain pointwise. The same happend with the Toh-system.  


____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted December 22, 2006 06:30 PM

The point system maretti posted here sounds good. Gets my vote.
What I also wanted to see on ToH in former times was the win/loss statistic a player had for every kind of map/template he played.
Not only : 125:26 win/loss
But:
Jebus XL: 31:11
TrueRandom L: 3:2
Balance M, Rampart, Ivor: 55-1 ()
NorthvsSouth: 5-0
Heartlands: 0-16
...
...
etc..

This way u get a clue about the strength and favorites of each player.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted December 22, 2006 07:26 PM

I liked your idea before Angelito, about having a 2vs2 allied game, maybe a vet with a noob.

That sounds rather good, and I would probably be the noob
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted December 22, 2006 09:46 PM

Hmm this tournament idea is interesting. I could play againts somebody if possible.

When and whit who would these battles go. How many players at time... These things i would like to know.

For the point ranking system i think best system is so start from 1000 or 1500 points and when you lose your points deacreases and when you win the amount other loses points you get equal to your own points. The difference could change also whit lesser points player could lose less points than the high rank player.

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black_knight
black_knight


Known Hero
LT League
posted December 24, 2006 02:33 AM

At last, i see, that H3 will never die This is very good.
You can take some ideas from our lithuanian h3 tournament page -
http://heroes.mums.lt . Good Luck ! One question. Where we will play 2007 season, if gs is close ?

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black_knight
black_knight


Known Hero
LT League
posted December 24, 2006 10:45 PM

Quote:

Why you dont use Hamachi???? http://hamachi.cc/download/
Its simple and easy to set up, just play on lan!


I have this program, but this program is only for man, who haven't external IP adress. I see now, that gs isnt close (sry for my english)

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted December 24, 2006 11:50 PM

Hamachi is exellent program i use it when i play Unreal Tournament 2004 but sure the Heroes 3 works on gamespy arcade aswell.

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Jammer0
Jammer0

Tavern Dweller
posted December 29, 2006 08:33 PM
Edited by Jammer0 at 20:36, 29 Dec 2006.

I think it would be very helpfull if you posted a definition of various rules that players may agree on for the game on the new site. New players may then have a single reference for rule definitions. I know you have a site currently that does something like this Sag. I have played many games lately where we agree to "standard" rules and add perhaps a few more that we like so perhaps an exact definition of standard rules could be set as well.
____________

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted December 30, 2006 01:50 AM

Standard rules for me:

- No dimension door
- No fly (including angelwings)
- No diplomacy
- No cartographer
- No hillfort
- Must fight misplaced guards
- All conservatories and hives ok, but not allowed to upgrade the creatures u get as reward.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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