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| Thread: Creatures' Survival |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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SS
Known Hero
Strike first, Strike Hard
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posted January 03, 2007 10:15 AM |
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Now I would assume that the attack you calculated was ranged and not hand to hand.
I extermly pleased about "Squires 80% (!)" they are truly are the defensice back bone of the mighty Haven faction.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 03, 2007 12:20 PM |
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Nice work, why don't you include a "Creature destroyability" to compensate  I mean, in this way, dwarves will obviously be the toughest faction, right? Blood furies are killers, for example, with their high initiative -- and dwarves are unlikely to get them down so easily because of their low damage.
I once battled with Inferno, had around 500 Sprites with Necklace of the Bloody Claw + Battle Frenzy (double damage), and got a good luck on first turn (my hero was Wyngaal, so it acted first).. imagine doing a splash attack, it said: "kills 457-501" on Familiars, Cerberi and Nightmares (200 cerberi, around 400 or so familiars, and around 50-60 nightmares, can't remember exactly). Remember it was a "good luck" strike, so the only remaining stuff was 2 Nightmares.. Sprites aren't really that useless, aren't them? It just depends how you use them, they suck at durability, but they rule at destroyability. Like blood furies. That's why including such a chart of destroyability will make it more compensable.
I really wish to see how some will realize that having 1 or 2 more levels around lvl 15 (creeping a bit faster) will surely provide a huge advantage -- this involves the tent, of course. I don't see why Sylvan is poor at creeping just because of that damn tent, and healing power is very poor (maximum 300)? I never get war machines even if I'm offered, and I have no problem at creeping. Also powercreeping and rushing attacks are not very useful as most believe. If you want, you can switch and choose experience from treasure chests instead of gold -- it's the same thing as creeping 3 or more neutrals earlier than expected 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 03, 2007 05:10 PM |
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Quote:
Nice work, why don't you include a "Creature destroyability" to compensate I mean, in this way, dwarves will obviously be the toughest faction, right? Blood furies are killers, for example, with their high initiative -- and dwarves are unlikely to get them down so easily because of their low damage.
I once battled with Inferno, had around 500 Sprites with Necklace of the Bloody Claw + Battle Frenzy (double damage), and got a good luck on first turn (my hero was Wyngaal, so it acted first).. imagine doing a splash attack, it said: "kills 457-501" on Familiars, Cerberi and Nightmares (200 cerberi, around 400 or so familiars, and around 50-60 nightmares, can't remember exactly). Remember it was a "good luck" strike, so the only remaining stuff was 2 Nightmares.. Sprites aren't really that useless, aren't them? It just depends how you use them, they suck at durability, but they rule at destroyability. Like blood furies. That's why including such a chart of destroyability will make it more compensable.
500 sprites? With max growth at 24 per week (with castle and building boosting growth) the game should take more than 5 months to make it possible to reach that number (well, not counting external dwellings or diplomacy ofc), so it's pretty much impossible in MP. Besides, one of the duel heroes has 500 sprites, and they ain't much of a killer. Even with doubled damage, they still wouldn't be that great.
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I don't see why Sylvan is poor at creeping just because of that damn tent, and healing power is very poor (maximum 300)? I never get war machines even if I'm offered, and I have no problem at creeping.
Yeah, you can kill the demons or golems. Or zombies.
Stop dreaming.. My usual example is peninsula map. To do anything on this map, you have to enter the underground early, and the entrance is protected by lvl3 creep. May be master hunter. How can you kill master hunters without HUGE loses with sylvan? And how can you take mines early? The answer is: you can't. Sylvan is good on rich maps mostly, because it sucks in creeping.
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Also powercreeping and rushing attacks are not very useful as most believe. If you want, you can switch and choose experience from treasure chests instead of gold -- it's the same thing as creeping 3 or more neutrals earlier than expected
"if you want to win the game,always take gold from chests" - a rule from heroes 3 which is true also in heroes 5.
You can't get resources from chests, and some cities simply MUST get the mines in order not to become totally halted in development. So, you have to creep anyway.
Ok, doing the fortress chart..
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 03, 2007 07:08 PM |
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I forgot to say the example with Sprites was on Sub. treasures map, but they killed a lot of familiars and cerberi, which were also quite a lot (more than "usual").
Peninsula, Sub. treasures, Mystic's Vale... I usually play these maps. Have to say, Peninsula is the creepiest map I've seen -- has got the most creeps and only 2 players! Anyway I can get hunters at week 3. Of course you would argue that at this point Arch Devils would be recruited, but they ain't that a big deal, especially in town siege when enemy hero does 140 damage to them with normal strike! 
"always take gold" -- I said you "could" switch and take experience instead of gold...
Secondly, it depends on map, the AI's stupidity (yep, neutrals are AI), and various other factors. This is not a 100% fair and competitive game player-vs-player. Too random, and too many creeps which don't fall into the "player" category.
And I am also kinda defensive even if I crush the enemy when he sieges/lurks within my town perimeter, so I do not attack back -- I usually wait for my sprites to grow up, and as you know the growth is unfair. 24 sprites ain't much of a difference in an army, so I can avoid a week or two of population when I engage other players (putting only high tiers in the battle until their numbers are decent).
Keep it up with Fortress, can't wait to see how they smash the others for their massive durability  
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 04, 2007 02:29 PM |
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ok Fortress chart:
Shieldguards: 71%
Skirmishers: 61%
Blackbear Riders: 78%
Berserkers: 62% (71% with growth booster)
Rune Patriarchs: 75%
Warlords: 85%
Magma Dragons: 93%
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 04, 2007 04:24 PM |
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Not bad!
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted January 05, 2007 09:21 AM |
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I don't know why, but i though it was higher? Hmm... well it is when you have 30 in def...
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 05, 2007 11:35 AM |
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Dwarves really disappoint me! And I thought it would've been over 80% for most of them 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 05, 2007 12:17 PM |
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Well, Skirmishers are quite easy to kill, yes. But compare them with other shooters, say marksmen or master hunters.. they are around 30-40%! So in fact skirmishers are quite durable for a level 2 shooter.
As for the rune patriarchs, they are supposed to be better in offensive than inquisitors with equally useful sells, so it's logical they are a bit less tough.
Still, for dwarven faction, the numbers don't show that much. First, def is their prime stat, so they are tougher on battlefield than those stats show they are. Second, "defence formation" and "preparation" really make them a b*tch, and with runes of incorporeality and dragonform their survivalability goes through the roof. Third, they are light-magic alligned, so it's possible to get spells like mass endurance easily.
So, with at least decent stats, their army is still the hardest to kill - haven comes close, though.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 05, 2007 12:23 PM |
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The damage Rune Patriarches do is incredible when you look at Inquisitors, and the durability is not much of a difference (50% magic proof). So I guess they're ok (like the skirmishers).
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 05, 2007 01:18 PM |
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You know, doomforge, from my experience, I actually find Inferno to be the weakest faction at creeping. (without Deleb, of course) Don't you get it that Deleb is not INFERNO? It's just a hero.
And there's Kaspar in Necro, I think he Rules!!! (he has the tent and also the Raise Dead spell) I would like to see how you can beat 20+ ArchLiches with no losses at week 2. (I did it with Kaspar, you know)
And this durability chart does not say the power of creatures. Give me a break! this means Zombies are especially strong?!?!? and some consider them useless... Oh yeah, this means the Gargoyles are the best creatures, right? (cost vs. hit points)
And there's another weakness in durable units: the heroes' direct damage kills a certain amount of tier-specific creatures. That means my hero would kill the same number of squires as cerberi. (much higher damage to squires)
EDIT: doomforge, Peninsula is not the only map in HOMM V, you know
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 05, 2007 01:50 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 13:51, 05 Jan 2007.
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ZombieLord: Do not get so angry man! We were only talking about the "survivability", not "toughness".. no need to be so angry.. Who said we were talking about power here?
Deleb is not Inferno, nor is Kaspar.. I am not "loving" any hero. Probably you are, but I always find much fun in playing all of them, even if Kaspar, for example, is "creeping faster". I don't care about creeping, I don't care to smash my keyboard because of neutrals.. I care for a nice player vs player confrontation.. I care for fun not exploit
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 05, 2007 01:53 PM |
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I was not angry. Sorry If i looked like that.
I'm just saying that Sylvan is not the weakest faction at creeping, Inferno is (at least Sylvan has a super-damaging ranged unit and no retaliation with the sprite, but Inferno doesn't even have a ranged unit until tier 4!)
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 05, 2007 01:56 PM |
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Yeah but it has Gating... and just because it isn't good at creeping doesn't mean it's a weak faction
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted January 05, 2007 02:01 PM |
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Quote:
Besides, one of the duel heroes has 500 sprites, and they ain't much of a killer. Even with doubled damage, they still wouldn't be that great.
She has 300 sprites, and yes, they ARE killers. Whoever you played must have not been good with them...
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted January 05, 2007 03:31 PM |
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I would say that Inferno ain't that bad at creeping too... You just use gating and hero.. nothing else untill you get Ceberus, then you can creep...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 05, 2007 07:21 PM |
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Quote:
I was not angry. Sorry If i looked like that.
I'm just saying that Sylvan is not the weakest faction at creeping, Inferno is (at least Sylvan has a super-damaging ranged unit and no retaliation with the sprite, but Inferno doesn't even have a ranged unit until tier 4!)
I don't care whether you hate inferno or not. The facts are simple: This town is a real creepkiller. You may consider them worthless, pathetic, etc. in the earlygame. You may consider the earth is flat, too. Too bad it's against the facts. But think whatever you want, it's your choice.
Deleb is not inferno? Huh? So why only inferno can choose her as its starting hero? And why do you write "there is kaspar in necropolis" if you think heroes are not parts of their towns lol?
20 archliches? weaklings. They cast spells all the time while ballista rapes them. Not a problem. I can post (again >_> some of my kills if you want to see them, though, in case you don't believe me.
If you read the whole topic, you'd know that I really hate comparing creatures by numbers, and this chart is purely informative. And it's about endurance, nothing more.
The "super-damaging" hunters can't really kill everything in one shot. And even if they can.. Creeps often are splitted to 3-4 stacks. You kill one, the rest kills several of your hunters. You kill another stack, the rest focus on hunters. In the end you win, but you lose a whole population of your most damaging unit. What is the point of creeping then, if it brings more casualties than benefits? None, of course. Creeping is ok only if you lose nothing at all or very little.
Peace, bro 
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 05, 2007 07:37 PM |
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Yeah but every Necro hero can take down strong creeps with no casualties thanks to Raise Dead. And I meant Deleb is not the only Inferno hero out there. So Deleb is not Inferno, it's just part of it.
The ArchLiches cast spells? It didn't happen to me, but then what you do against Liches? (also, do you consider yourself a 'strategic' guy if you make use of the AI's weakness? i.e. it shouldn't cast spells but rather attack with the ArchLiches)
3-4 stacks? you should know that the enemy splits stacks based on your army's strength. If you have a much weaker army than the neutrals, there would probably be 3-4 stacks. It never happened to me to find 4 stacks of neutrals except against dragons.
And when I play with Sylvan, yes, I really kill everything with Master Hunters and Druids; the only problem is that the neutrals can shoot first, you know...
And the First Aid Tent heals only 300 HP Max per battle... I really can't see how you can bring down High Tier creatures only with Horned Overseers and Deleb, but...
Ok, enough of this. Peace man
Edit: and no, i don't hate inferno, i really enjoy playing with it, though it's a bit difficult to manage creeping in the earlygame without Deleb. This doesn't mean I dislike it, I'm not a maniac to like only something that is overpowered, I don't enjoy anything from winning, i just like playing and inferno is no exception
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 05, 2007 08:27 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah but every Necro hero can take down strong creeps with no casualties thanks to Raise Dead.
Necros are even better than inferno in killing creeps. After 2-3 weeks, inferno can no longer match their creeping spree. but the first two weeks belong to the fiery guys!
Quote:
The ArchLiches cast spells? It didn't happen to me, but then what you do against Liches? (also, do you consider yourself a 'strategic' guy if you make use of the AI's weakness? i.e. it shouldn't cast spells but rather attack with the ArchLiches)
They do, if they can't do a lot of damage to your army. Exploiting some AI "bugs" was always a part of the strategy. You could kill a horde of chaos hydras in heroes 3 with little effort, for example, if you only had the blind spell.
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And the First Aid Tent heals only 300 HP Max per battle... I really can't see how you can bring down High Tier creatures only with Horned Overseers and Deleb, but...
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=20654&pagenumber=1
scroll down a bit, there are some screenies posted there by me, in case you don't believe I can take whatever the map brings with horned demons only. Perhaps the unicorns aren't the best example, but I killed bigger things too with little-to-no loses with ballista, tent and demons only.
regards!
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 05, 2007 08:37 PM |
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ok, i get your point. But the first aid tent is what does the real job, not inferno, as the Horned Demons don't do much, right? so simply the first aid tent seems to be overpowered at creeping, and Deleb happens to have war machines, that's all.
good night to you all (it's 10 PM here)
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