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| Thread: Naga Queen vs Dread Knight |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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HeymlicH
Famous Hero
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posted January 10, 2007 06:12 PM |
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Naga Queen vs Dread Knight
We had a discusssion recently. Some guy was saying Naga Queens are the best L6, some other guy was claiming this has been discussed long ago, Dread Knights are better, and posted a link. I was a bit surprised to hear this, just looking at the stats and abilities I wouldn't expect the Dread Knight to win. So I was following the link and found some statistics where DK does 5:5 against NQ in 10 matches 100 vs 100. Well, 10 matches, this doesn't say much I thought. So I was planning to do some further research on this.
So, before doing some real matches let's look at the theory. The Naga Queen has fixed damage. The DK has a huge Damage Range, the maximum Damage is 4 times the value of the minimum damage, including the special. Well ... is it really? Actually everyone is talking about "double damage", but I think this is wrong. He just gets a 100% Damage bonus which is added to the other boni including attack rating and Offensde skill. Correct me if you think I'm wrong.
The NQ has better damage, the DK has better stats. The DK is faster. The NQ has the no retaliation. So, if both play to their best, the sequence will be as follows:
DK(move), NQ(defend), DK(wait), NQ(defend), DK(attack), NQ(retaliation), DK(attack), NQ(retaliation), NQ(attack) ... (repeat the last 3 steps)
How do we find out who will win? An ingame test will be a pain. calculating will also be a pain, since just using average damage for the DK will definitely give wrong results. I decide to write a simulator.
so, which setting will we test? Lets first try with a level 0 hero and 100 dk vs 100 NQ. We do 100000 matches.
The result is: DK wins 24.9%.
This basically means The DK is winning if he is starting with a double blow. If he isn't he is almost lost - there is a small chance he can turn things around with a lucky punch in the second attack.
So now let's have a look at what happens if we take a hero with 20A/D and expert Offense/Armorer. I would expect an advantage for the NQ here: The DK does less than double damage with the special, and armorer will make the match longer what is good for the stronger opponent. On the other side offense makes the match is shorter which is good for the DK. The defense bonus in the beginning will be a bit higher.
This time the result is: DK wins 25.1%
Mhmm ... I'm a bit surprised to see almost no change. What it basically means is: The Dread Knight wins if he can open the match with a lucky punch 
Since testing is fun with a simulator, and I didn't do this coding to just execute it once, we do some more matches. 
Offensive heroes,(A30/D10) with Offense and Armorer: DK wins 25.2%
Defensive heroes,(A10/D30) with Offense and Armorer: DK wins 24.6%
The result always is the same: The DK is winning if he can open the match with a double blow. Too bad, I was hoping the answer will not be that simple.
So, if you have a different experience, doubt the game mechanics posted above, think I'm not able to make a simulator or just agree, post it here 
btw: I can not guarantee there are no errors in the simulator, but I tested it well and I'm quite sure it is working fine. The damage numbers it produced were looking quite good. I have no idea how rounding works in HoMM3 and I didn't think much about it, so I'm quite sure real results would differ from the simulated results a bit, but I don't think it makes a big difference.
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JungleMan
Hired Hero
Funkenstein
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posted January 10, 2007 07:20 PM |
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Were dread knights or naga queens grouped or there was only one unit of 100 dk/nq?
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Fank0_
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 10, 2007 10:17 PM |
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Naga queens can never defeat Dread Knights. DK has 18 ATT and 18 DEF while the NQ has 16 ATT and 13 DEF. This basicaly means that the DK normally deals approximately the same ammount of DMG as the NQ. Moving first and having 10 HP more makes it impossible to lose the battle. Notice that double damage possibility is not calculated at all...
In fact, I am not sure whether NQ can win even in case the DK never deal more than 20 DMG. With dmg range 15-30 this could NEVER happen in real game but is still interesting to know.
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tenzor
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 10, 2007 10:28 PM |
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http://heroes.dai-net.net/bitva.exe
DK should win approx. 3 of 5 fights. Death blow is implemnted as double damage here.
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tenzor
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 10, 2007 10:31 PM |
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Quote:
Naga queens can never defeat Dread Knights. DK has 18 ATT and 18 DEF while the NQ has 16 ATT and 13 DEF. This basicaly means that the DK normally deals approximately the same ammount of DMG as the NQ. Moving first and having 10 HP more makes it impossible to lose the battle. Notice that double damage possibility is not calculated at all...
In fact, I am not sure whether NQ can win even in case the DK never deal more than 20 DMG. With dmg range 15-30 this could NEVER happen in real game but is still interesting to know.
I think you didn't take Nagas no retalation ability into account at all. Death knights would have no chance in case of lower speed.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted January 10, 2007 10:38 PM |
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Yep. Nagaqueens hit twice per round (attack and retail), while dreads only hit once. And that happens 100% of the time, while the doubledamage of the dreads only happens around 20% of the time. So I also doubt the dreads will win more than 40% of all fights.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Fank0_
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 10, 2007 10:54 PM |
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I think you didn't take Nagas no retalation ability into account at all. Death knights would have no chance in case of lower speed.
After doing some more calculations it appears that you are right. It is indeed something like 3 out of 5 for the DK.
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JungleMan
Hired Hero
Funkenstein
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posted January 10, 2007 10:59 PM |
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Quote:
After doing some more calculations it appears that you are right. It is indeed something like 3 out of 5 for the DK.
No, actually 2 out of 5. But this is only while playing 1on1. I tried playing with more groups, actually 7, each group 10 dk/nq; no morale/luck/terrain bonus, same heroes. When I was playing with dk hero I defeated the other nq hero with only 26 losses, but when I was playing with nq hero I managed to kill only 33 dk.
To sum up, dk and nq are almost equal, but speed gives dk huge advantage in this case.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted January 11, 2007 02:24 AM |
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I would most definately pick Naga Queen over the Dread Knight.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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HeymlicH
Famous Hero
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posted January 11, 2007 10:08 AM |
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1 stack of 100 each. If distributing the units it becomes too complicated, there would be more than one choice in a turn. Also, the AI tends to make stupid moves and block the way so it can't attack.
I also had a try without the double blow ability. DK win zero matches (out of 1000).
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JungleMan
Hired Hero
Funkenstein
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posted January 11, 2007 10:19 AM |
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I also had a try without the double blow ability. DK win zero matches (out of 1000).
So, you have proven that nq is better then dk, without making critical strike dk is no match for nq, gj HeymlicH.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 11, 2007 12:14 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 12:14, 11 Jan 2007.
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some other guy was claiming this has been discussed long ago, Dread Knights are better, and posted a link.
Hmph, I appear to be that "other guy", but I have NEVER claimed that DKs are better than NQs. The closest is:
Quote:
Personally I prefer the DKs because of their better A/D, speed, slightly lower cost (and also better HP).
I do not take it lightly when someone claims that I have posted something which I haven't.
How was the flow of attacks in your simulation? As discussed in the other thread, I do not think it would be fair if the DK did not use it's speed advantage to get the 1st and 3rd hits. (I.e. DK waits, NQ defends, DK attacks, NQ retaliates, new round, DK attacks, NQ retaliates, NQ attacks, new round, etc.)
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted January 11, 2007 01:08 PM |
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Edited by liophy at 13:10, 11 Jan 2007.
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There are several criterias which are decisive for the outcome.
1. How much damage do the dread knights on the first strike. If they do 30 the game is almost won, even without DD at all in the next rounds
2. If there is DD in any of the of the first 3 rounds (60% probability) the game is over
I admit, that i am not sure how the curse speciality of the Dread Knight is treated - is it expert or basic? If its expert there is big dependancy on it also - the Nagas will do not 30, but 23 damage, wich is significant decrease. And if there is a curse in any of the first 2 turns (40% probability) the outcome is also desided.
One thing, that must be taken into account thou is that Naga DO HAVE moral and the Dreads DONT. So if Nagas gets moral in any of the first two rounds will have the strong advantage.
I am not sure how you tuned your testing software, but i dont thing you took all the facts into account.
In general the Dread Knights will win in most of the cases.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted January 11, 2007 01:14 PM |
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I still think that the Naga Queens will win most of the cases.
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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HeymlicH
Famous Hero
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posted January 11, 2007 02:22 PM |
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Quote:
There are several criterias which are decisive for the outcome.
1. How much damage do the dread knights on the first strike. If they do 30 the game is almost won, even without DD at all in the next rounds
The first attack is very important, yes.
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2. If there is DD in any of the of the first 3 rounds (60% probability) the game is over
A DD in the third round in many cases comes too late to turn things around.
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I admit, that i am not sure how the curse speciality of the Dread Knight is treated - is it expert or basic? If its expert there is big dependancy on it also - the Nagas will do not 30, but 23 damage, wich is significant decrease. And if there is a curse in any of the first 2 turns (40% probability) the outcome is also desided.
Expert curse would reduce the damage to 29, right? But this is not really important since the curse is base level, otherwise ist would be a mass curse.
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One thing, that must be taken into account thou is that Naga DO HAVE moral and the Dreads DONT. So if Nagas gets moral in any of the first two rounds will have the strong advantage.
Morale can be good or bad. I assumed Nages don't have any morale bonus, what actually is matching the situation in a real match.
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I am not sure how you tuned your testing software, but i dont thing you took all the facts into account.
I'm quite sure I have taken all factors into account. However, I could have made a mistake when coding. I don't think so, but it is possible. So any opinion is welcome.
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In general the Dread Knights will win in most of the cases.
No, I don't think so
@Ecoris:
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Hmph, I appear to be that "other guy"
I had the impression the discussion there had become a bit emotional and I didn't want to continue this, that's why I didn't refer to any thread or person
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How was the flow of attacks in your simulation? As discussed in the other thread, I do not think it would be fair if the DK did not use it's speed advantage to get the 1st and 3rd hits. (I.e. DK waits, NQ defends, DK attacks, NQ retaliates, new round, DK attacks, NQ retaliates, NQ attacks, new round, etc.)
As mentioned in the original post I used the same sequence as you did in your test, but I set the NQ to defend at start - I'm not sure if you did this. I believe you got a 5:5 when you tried. But 10 tries is not much. Could have been 10:0 as well. I wouldn't expect anyone to do more than 10 tries on this, it is really boring. that's why I used a simulator. For most matches in H3 10 would be enough, but NQ vs DK is so much depending on luck that a higher number is needed.
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted January 11, 2007 03:47 PM |
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Expert curse would reduce the damage to 29, right? But this is not really important since the curse is base level, otherwise ist would be a mass curse.
Curse Expert Effect: All enemy creatures deliver ((80% of their minimum damage) - 1) when they attack
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Morale can be good or bad. I assumed Nages don't have any morale bonus, what actually is matching the situation in a real match.
Moral of an army consisting of monsters of same alighment is always +1. Moral could be bad only if you have visited map objects before the battle (such thing cannot be taken into considaration in this test) or if there is monsters from more the one alighment.
So, army of 1 creature obviously is from 1 alighment and thus has morale +1.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted January 11, 2007 03:47 PM |
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Those percentages refering to probability are not correct. You can't just add up the numbers. 20% chance doesn't mean, u will have 100% chance when u try 5 times. Think about Roulette, and forget about the ZERO for a moment. Chance for red and black is both 50%. When red doesn't appear in first try, the chances it appears in 2nd try are NOT 100%, otherwise every casino would be bankrupt..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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HeymlicH
Famous Hero
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posted January 11, 2007 03:55 PM |
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An army consisting of one creature doesn't get a morale bonus. The bonus for all creatures have the same alignment is only given if you have at least two stacks.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 11, 2007 05:01 PM |
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An army consisting of one creature doesn't get a morale bonus. The bonus for all creatures have the same alignment is only given if you have at least two stacks.
No, 1 stack is enough.
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I had the impression the discussion there had become a bit emotional and I didn't want to continue this, that's why I didn't refer to any thread or person
Heated perhaps, but not emotional.
I don't mind that you refer directly to what I write as long you do it in a proper way.
Quote:
Curse Expert Effect: All enemy creatures deliver ((80% of their minimum damage) - 1) when they attack
The 80% was never implemented in the game. You only get minimum damage - 1 (or just minimum damage at basic level).
I guess the DK's curse is cast at advanced level because that is usually the case with creature spells, though I have not tested it.
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kallen
Known Hero
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posted January 11, 2007 09:39 PM |
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Naga is better - and curse don't affected on Naga(always 30 damage)
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From the beginnin' to end Losers lose, winners win This is real, we ain't got to pretend The cold world that we in Is full of pressure and pain I thought it would chane
But its stayin' the same
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