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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Dungeon heroes overview!
Thread: Dungeon heroes overview! This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted January 20, 2007 10:00 PM

Quote:
They are total garbage

You insult zombies? I am the Zombie Lord and I will feast on your brains for saying that!

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 20, 2007 10:11 PM

we already have unlimited growth. It's called marksmen trai.... whoops :X Ok, no more whine

Anyways..

Growth is an essential part of the game, otherwise everybody would choose one unit that has the best price/power ratio and massed it to oblivion. Lol.

You say hellfire is not related to cerberi, rasing pitlords too, etc.. you focus on stats which tell you furies are uber powerful and super cool. Too bad they bite the dust after three seconds And, they have no hellfire to augment them, no archdevils to make any use of their bodies after their death (no necrophily ideas please ). In other words, their usefulness is much lower, despite their stats. Simple

Emlisn: Might, not magic -> why not? Destructive can be stopped in many ways. I think might is more reliable here, and besides, you can really surprise your enemy, prepared for evading implosions and covered with anti-magic arties.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted January 20, 2007 10:13 PM

I think fixing ritual pit would be a nice solution. Sacrificing 300 hp to get 1 Fury more isn't the best tradeoff..
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 20, 2007 10:18 PM

I think it's more ridiculous that you'd need to sacrifice 334 black dragons to get +9 fury growth LOL

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted January 20, 2007 10:28 PM

Only 334 Blackies needed to make my imba furies shine. MUAHAHAHAAAa
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 20, 2007 11:00 PM

Doomforge there is something I must say here. Whatever makes you believe a might faction as haven or inferno won't kill off easily a might dungeon?
The spellpower you gain 45% of the time has a reason you know. Your attack is 30% and your defence is almost nonexistant so you need the magic as support for your creatures. Even if you don't focus on it.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 20, 2007 11:09 PM

Enlightment makes the attack reasonably high, almost as high as infernal heroes.

As for def: That's why I think power of endurance is absolutely godly for might-dungeon, same for visiting every arena and marletto tower you see and buying every def artie you can find at your artie merchant.

I'm not saying this is the best way to play, but having your empowered lucky implosion resisted 2 times in a row will give you even LESS than focusing on might. And there are almost 100%reliable counters. Mass familiars (from two castles) and counterspell are the bane of destructive magic. Better to focus on something else, I guess. I have to test it more to be certain, though.

Of course magic still offers hit'n'run after your army has been crushed. As I wrote some time ago: you may lose an army, lose the battle, run, rehire and return with your empowered emplosion to finish the job. But what if your enemy has counterspell? Ouchh. You're a gonner.

Academy generally owns traditional warlocks, so I found the might path a bit better here.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 20, 2007 11:23 PM

Quote:

I'm not saying this is the best way to play, but having your empowered lucky implosion resisted 2 times in a row will give you even LESS than focusing on might. And there are almost 100%reliable counters. Mass familiars (from two castles) and counterspell are the bane of destructive magic. Better to focus on something else, I guess. I have to test it more to be certain, though.

Of course magic still offers hit'n'run after your army has been crushed. As I wrote some time ago: you may lose an army, lose the battle, run, rehire and return with your empowered emplosion to finish the job. But what if your enemy has counterspell? Ouchh. You're a gonner.

Academy generally owns traditional warlocks, so I found the might path a bit better here.


Your spells are never completely resisted but do half damage instead(exp irresistible magic). It should be sufficient. Academy cannot make resistance arties for all creatures AND give them other bonuses due to resources shortage. You don't have to go all might to defeat them, I've played the match. Also counterspell is negated by your creatures too so you can wait with your hero and cast with the matriarchs first. Academy doesn't reall own warlocks as is seen on paper but it's a close match. About a horde of familiars it's a nasty situation but you can find knowledge arties or buy them from your castle and if you want to make sure you'll have a favourable ending battle you can hit&run to kill familiars first. From your town you get 1 knowledge, from secrets of destruction two more and if you add intelligence you have something. Can't hit&run academy so you try to finish them in the old fashioned way or hope you'll get to play first.
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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted January 20, 2007 11:44 PM

I have a strange feeling that the best thing that can happen to a might oriented Dungeon is Deleb in tavern..
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 20, 2007 11:45 PM

You'll get him started again!!!
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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 20, 2007 11:45 PM bonus applied.

Heroes.

Sinitar is a good Hero, I cannot think otherwise. On level 15 as you said he will give a 20% discount to Empowered spells. That is like another Arcane Training. With both, he has 0.8*0.8 times cheaper spells, taht is 0.64 of the prise.. Empowered Implosion, costing 36 will then cost 23 mana. That is 13 mana cheaper.. Granted, it makes only for 6 mana if you count the difference between a normal Warlock and Sinitar. However, mana is THE biggest problem of Warlocks, so his ability is a very needed one. That is, ofcourse, if you take the destructive route.

Other Heroes of Dungeon are fun also. You mentioned Kythra, the leader of Minotaurs. Actually something that many don't know is that Minotaur Guards pack the most damage of the entire Dungeon army, if not counting attack bonuses (which will take Blacks to a lot higer spheres ) And they bring really solid HP per week, more than Shadow Matriarchs. The thing is, that you must find a way to use them as they are low on initiative. And yes, they do more damage than Steel Golems! Of course Golmes have other abilities to make them tougher, but at raw damage they lead. From level 3 only Master Hunters score more damage...

So Kythra is ok, but I wouldn't brag about starting with Ice Bolt. Sure it is most efficent early with low SpellPower, but you can only cast it once, as it costs 6 mana. She is my favourite support Hero, giving a healthy boost to Minotaurs and Estates, also quick at obtaining Recruitment.

As a side note, Dungeon has the most HP of all factions. That supports both a magic way and a might way. But they do the least damage! Which pretty much indicates a need for additional help (well all faction do need additional help) Warlocks high Attack also takes away from this drawback.

To continue with the Heroes... I am not sure what you mean with Yrbeth having infinite mana. You do know that the ability is used outside combat? Yes it is a good ability, but I wouldn't use the wording you used. Lethos is fun Nuff said.

Wou don't like Furies, so that might overshadow your pov about Yrwanna. That defense bonus you get is handy, but the real reason is more attacking power. As thats what furies are for.

I consider Eruina a very good choise, as in her really the essence of Dungeon comes out. A Hybrid faction of Might and Magic, and she starts with Attack & Destructive. Very nice. The speciality isn't great though.

And Vayshan is great on smaller maps, but other than that, I am not a fan. Starts with Fire Trap... And Sorgal is the worst.


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 21, 2007 01:33 AM

Congratulations Doom!
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 21, 2007 10:49 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:57, 21 Jan 2007.

Quote:
Your spells are never completely resisted but do half damage instead(exp irresistible magic). It should be sufficient. Academy cannot make resistance arties for all creatures AND give them other bonuses due to resources shortage. You don't have to go all might to defeat them, I've played the match. Also counterspell is negated by your creatures too so you can wait with your hero and cast with the matriarchs first. Academy doesn't reall own warlocks as is seen on paper but it's a close match. About a horde of familiars it's a nasty situation but you can find knowledge arties or buy them from your castle and if you want to make sure you'll have a favourable ending battle you can hit&run to kill familiars first. From your town you get 1 knowledge, from secrets of destruction two more and if you add intelligence you have something. Can't hit&run academy so you try to finish them in the old fashioned way or hope you'll get to play first.


I thought irresistable only works on golem-type resistance? Ouchh, there is so much I don't know about warlocks ~~

I heard counterspell no longer works with creatures, and it affects hero only, so I wouldn't bother with magic vs. academy. I'll do a test soon, we shall see how does it work now.

Playing pure magic is fun, but still, the list of pre-requisites of a succesful empowered implosion makes me want to throw all the magic away. And somehow sorcerey is offered to me rarely.. which leads to huge mana costs and slow casting And, even with enlightment, I end with 10 SP at levels 13-14. Damn, it's not much.

Oh, and I didn't say I entirely skip destructive with Kythra.. I just don't build guilds. Icebolts serve me as disabler. With exp. destructive of course

The reason I've started searching for something different is because I got thrashed by my friend playing necro. I went for traditional Sinitar+Implo combo, had warlock's luck, slippers.. He had 1,3 K skellies. My lucky empowered implosion with 13 SP (couldn't get it higher ~~) killed like 300 skellies, the rest OHKOed my lizards and minos before I could act again (he had master of speed). He also had vamps, liches and wraights who did considerably big damage. Furies died next, and I was left with shadow matriarchs only. Another implosion (without luck) killed next 200 skellies, but I really couldn't do much anything more than run, cuz skellies killed 4/5 matriarchs in their shot.
Ok.. but it wasn't over yet, you think? it was.
I recruited some flesh, regained mana and come back.. and while I was doing it.. he killed a bunch of neutral squires andother creatures and gained 300 skellies back! lol >_> The battle took even less, since he had almost untouched army. I managed to launch only one empowered implosion before all my stacks were dead.
In other words.. I don't think magic is the best way at all times.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted January 21, 2007 10:49 AM bonus applied.

Actually...

Quote:
You say hellfire is not related to cerberi, rasing pitlords too, etc.. you focus on stats which tell you furies are uber powerful and super cool. Too bad they bite the dust after three seconds And, they have no hellfire to augment them, no archdevils to make any use of their bodies after their death (no necrophily ideas please ). In other words, their usefulness is much lower, despite their stats. Simple
Actually when you "buy" or "recruit" a creature, you pay for it's stats, abilities, not on it's usefulness. Gating, for example, is a Hero skill. You "waste" levelups for it, and it's a Demon Lord's racial (for example, he can't have Irresistible Magic, but Gating instead). That's why you don't pay for Gating when you buy Cerberi..

Archdevils, hmm.. why do they cost so much if that was not THEIR special? Who cares you use Cerberi when raising Pit Lords? 160 gold for Cerberi does NOT include how you "use" them, only their stats and perks..

Anyway, I do not find Cerberi weak, and I do not think Furies are imba or uber powerful (like you said, or ZombieLord, one of you).. and if you find them killed in 2 seconds that doesn't mean they're weak either -- you could as well attack some other creatures and kill them in 2 seconds with infinite skellies. Attacking the furies means they're a big threat for you. You could attack anything else instead (depends on player) -- again this says NOTHING about their survivability. Your chart, for example, says it the correct way (it's based on stats, not how they're "used")

But you have to see that the cost of creatures depends on their stats and specials, NOT on how they're used by you or any other player. At least Furies are better than Horned demons (from your perspective), though I think those "slow and sturdy creatures" do quite some damage, same as marksmen from far range. (sorry for bringing this back, couldn't resist)

Quote:
I'm not saying this is the best way to play, but having your empowered lucky implosion resisted 2 times in a row will give you even LESS than focusing on might.
I thought I cleared this Implosion stuff last time.. Implosion is a very weak level 5 spell. First, it uses 18 mana (ok, less than Meteor Shower, but..), VERY EXPENSIVE just for a damn 40+40*power damage?!? Once you hit 2 stacks with FIREBALL, you end up with the SAME damage! And it costs ONLY 10 mana. Don't you get it? It doesn't matter if you kill 288 marksmen or 144 marksmen & another stack, because this ain't Dark magic -- it won't affect the whole stack, so if you, for example, split your marksmen in 2 stacks, Meteor Shower kills 144 & 144, Implosion 288.. that's the same.

With Meteor Shower, hitting 3 or more stacks (as it IS supposed to, since it has such a large area) will give you more damage than Implosion. Worse yet, you waste a lot of resource on lvl 5 guild for Implosion, believe me it's not the best approach

As for Academy, Implosion can be easily Magic Mirrored, which translates into... you know
But Meteor Shower or Fireball? No magic mirror, less mana/more damage

Quote:
And Vayshan is great on smaller maps, but other than that, I am not a fan. Starts with Fire Trap...
What's wrong with Fire trap?
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 21, 2007 10:56 AM

Well, I think you got a point, TheDeath. Still.. a fireball kills, say, 80 marksmen and 40 squires. I don't care for squires: they do not pose a threat. I'd rather double the damage against marksmen rather than kill some non-offensive units. I guess implosion is better here.


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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted January 21, 2007 10:59 AM

Well actually I agree with you here, but I still don't think it's worth to spend money on lvl5 guild, use a lot of mana, and 50% chance to get Implo

Anyway I said that unless the enemy has few stacks (like the marksmen & squire thing, with squires being tanks rather than damage dealers) Implosion sucks.


PS: don't get me wrong about the stats, I know cerberi are good indeed (not underpowered for their price), but it's just that the cost is not dependant on their usefulness by Arch devils or Hero's gating.. those are "external" things.

And yeah I love Cerberi & Sprites and creatures that do splash damage -- most underestimate that triple/double damage

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 21, 2007 11:06 AM

yeah, double-triple hit is easy to trigger in this part of HoMM. And it pushes cerberi from 70 dam/week to 210 dam/week, which tops arch devils, in fact. Even mroe with triple hellfire! With a full, 7-stack army, it's likely to hit three targets in your first charge and do a LOT of damage. Sure, you won't do it again, cuz a massive focus-fire will whack them, but, still..

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted January 21, 2007 02:46 PM

I think it's a game design problem unfortunatelly - the warlock's spellpower is not reflected in his troops. Look at Academy: they have their mages that use Energy Channel that boost wizard's knowledge(not literally of course).

What about warlock ? Does he even care what army he leads? He simply wants to cast implo, shower, arma.. and run away hoping there is no shackles. I think Dungeon really need some kind of a troop that would actually be important to him. Lets say for example that each Shadow Matriarch increases the empowered bonus by 1%. So 2 Matriarch gives 52% bounus, 3 Matriarch gives 53% bonus and so on. Maybe it's imbalanced but at least it's a direction that fits dungeon spellpower style.

For now, dungeon players are forced to create some weird might + magic combo that can't do both things properly.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 21, 2007 03:15 PM

It's fair enough theme wise and balance-wise. That's what being a warlock is about, power at the expense of others. And depends on what kind of hybrid you use.
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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted January 21, 2007 03:29 PM

Quote:
Sorgal aww. His only stregth is the attack skill, making it possible to get tactics quite fast.. except for that, uhh, lizard specialization that boosts ONLY the not very good lizard bite? Worthless if you ask me, lizards are second after blood furies to get killed and you won't really have many ocasions to use lizard bite under extreme focusfire.. Plus, haste spell at start is a waste. period.



This is a bad analysis.  He can be EXTREMELY dangerous with the lizard bite.  In fact, I sometimes won't even attack with my lizards, but move them RIGHT up to a slower enemy.  Then, having several stacks of furies, attack the slower enemy.  The lizards get free bites over and over while the furies receive no retaliation.  If you use him in this manner, he is one of the BEST heroes.  Give it a try sometime...  

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