Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Sylvan, the hidden power
Thread: Sylvan, the hidden power This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted January 29, 2007 12:37 PM
Edited by TowerLord at 12:55, 29 Jan 2007.

Sylvan, the hidden power

Sylvan is a very underated town, and from my recent experience, i must say that is a huge error. On the long run, Sylvan becomes very powerfull, maybe even the most powerfull.

Avenger, Sylvan's unique skill, is probably the best skill in the game. If luck is considered as a must have skill, than this mega-luck called avenger what is ? If you have two sylvans, you'll get 60% chance for double dmg , three sylvans 70% and so on. Also avenger works with luck, and you also get Elven Luck as ability, for an absolute 450% * your normal damage.

The sylvan heroes, having such a great skill as their unique, can be nothing but great heroes, but some of them are even better, possesing some really powerfull abilities:

Anwen - enhancing the double damage even further(+40% damage at level 20), might be the best late game hero in the game. Defense + Protection as secondary is not bad, but it could be better.

Ossir - speciality master hunters ... he starts with a nice army, and probably has the best sylvan start. also he enhances one of the best  sylvan creature, making it so deadly, that even the black dragons should fear it. His starting skill Luck, is a must have for sylvan, so I'd say this hero really represents the true nature of a ranger.

Wyngaal - with his Swift Striker ability, is really a top hero. In the final battle the Atb bar will probably be all sylvan, at the start of the battle, and with luck and avenger in your hands, your opponent might not get to see the second round. Also starting with attack and tactics is really great, cause your troops will be able to reach your opponent from start (unicors , sprites etc.). You should also get an artifact with +1 speed, and all your troops are gonna be able to cross the field !

Ylthin - favours the unicorns, which are the 2nd best lvl 5 creature( after the nightmares), making their stats(att/def) lvl 7 -ish. that is very nice, and she also starts with an unicorn, which is very good for creeping in the early stages of the game. also starting with light magic is a very good thing since this is the main sylvan spell.

All the Sylvan heroes gain very much defense and knowledge, maybe I would like that knowledge to be a little less, and part of it to go to attack, but still, they are might orriented heroes and that is a very good thing. Also against inferno, sometimes you might cry for that knowledge(Haven brings memories ).

My personal favourite hero from sylvan would be Wyngaal or Ossir. Since they gave that nice starting troops to Ossir I think he is the best overall! But the other 3 heroes come very close.

Main hero build should be something like this :
Attack -> Tactics , Battle Frenzy , Nature's Wrath(or archery depending on what you want)
Luck -> Soldier's Luck, Elven Luck
Light Magic -> All three abilities , or according to mage guild
2 personal choice spots...
Enlightment + Logistics might fit well here. I also like Defense very much, cause it gives you such a good protection, but it might not be the best for Sylvan. Also Leadership could be really nice, granting some extra-hits, and it works nice with the big initiative, but it doesn't have any cool abilities.

The sylvan army, is a very special one. Its main strength is the initiative. All the troops have >=10 initiative. I think 10 is a key point for initiative, and all your troops are above that key point. Except the Treant of course, but I usually won't build it . That's why Wyngaal is such a great choice, cause he makes some already fast troops , even faster . Appart from their fast orrientation, the sylvan troops are average, except the master hunter, which has a really huge damage for a lvl 3 creature. But having avenger on thier side, sylvan troops become the most damaging troops in the game. It is really amazing what they can do. Even the little sprites might become usefull damage dealers.

Recommended artifacts : + % initiative artifacts , + speed artifacts , and -% opponents initiative artifacts!

PS : a special thanks to Sq79, who gave me some nice advices about the faction!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 29, 2007 01:40 PM
Edited by Elvin at 13:44, 29 Jan 2007.

Quote:
On the long run, Sylvan becomes very powerfull, maybe even the most powerfull.


True, it's early on that they are vulnerable since they rely on low hp creatures like hunters that easily die to an eldritch arrow or a ranged attack. That's why I feel defence and vitality are essential early on. And resistance if possible used with unicorns!

Quote:

Avenger, Sylvan's unique skill, is probably the best skill in the game. If luck is considered as a must have skill, than this mega-luck called avenger what is ? If you have two sylvans, you'll get 60% chance for double dmg , three sylvans 70% and so on. Also avenger works with luck, and you also get Elven Luck as ability, for an absolute 450% * your normal damage.


It would be more fitting to say that it's the one with the highest potential or at least one of the top. Even if you don't get the neutrals you want you'll get some of your enemy's in a skirmish. However you can't roam around without knowing what you'll face if you are to make it useful and in maps with multiple players and the towns close to each other it's not as useful. Not to mention having to run back and forth to your town to change your favoured enemies... At least it can give you the edge in a big battle and preparation is the key.

Quote:
Wyngaal - with his Swift Striker ability, is really a top hero. In the final battle the Atb bar will probably be all sylvan, at the start of the battle, and with luck and avenger in your hands, your opponent might not get to see the second round. Also starting with attack and tactics is really great, cause your troops will be able to reach your opponent from start (unicors , sprites etc.). You should also get an artifact with +1 speed, and all your troops are gonna be able to cross the field !


A great hero but after a while. Early on he is as vulnerable as any...Since he gets to act first its best to focus on unit damage dealing skills and possibly leadeship. Luck/leadership/attack maximizes his damage output. The remaining is up to choice:
Logistics to pick on weaker heroes and catching main ones who haven't gotten reinforcements.
Light for mass haste/bless/righteous magic(even more damage) but also stormwind to keep flying units away.
Destructive for freezing/stunning/armour breaking effects etc.

Quote:

My personal favourite hero from sylvan would be Wyngaal or Ossir. Since they gave that nice starting troops to Ossir I think he is the best overall! But the other 3 heroes come very close.


Hehe I admit that I like Gilraen too! His numerous wardancers are good for creeping during the first two weeks and he can easily get vitality. Also I favour defence because at times sylvan is forced to charge and your units must be protected. He profits from leadeship-battle commander and later on his wardancers are great blockers and multiple attackers with luck and avenger.

Other misunderstood heroes:

Dirael. In larger maps with utopias and more towns she is really something. Ok imbue arrow+wasp swarm is a killer but phantom forces and hunters or any other unit for that matter is crazy. Might heroes don't profit from all schools of magic but some spells work better with them than spellcasters.

Vinrael. Enlightenment plus his special ensure you being about 3 lvls more than your opponents in midgame. Might want to use a magic school to make use of his high mana.


My main hero is usually something like that:

Luck->elven luck~ Easy to get, most important for sylvan. Beware of Deirdre with dead man's luck() and week of balance!

Defence for the reasons I mentioned. Basic abilities for me but mostly vitality and evasion.

Light for mass buffs and stormwind. Rarely I'll pursue fire resistance against inferno/dungeon/fortress. No need for high spellpower and later resurrection is a blessing for your hunters.

Logistics No need to comment on that. But I don't usually get its perks and focus on other skills. Maybe scouting to help in an unknown map.

Then at lvl 16+ I'll get basic and if possible advanced enlightenment for some easy stats.
Sometimes I'll take leadership because it's a sure bet while magic also needs resources and there may not be many to be had. The dwellings are damn resourse depleting...

One more thing. You mentioned you don't build treants at times. DO build them because they can be lifesavers and die hard! You also get a horde dwelling and if you upg them you gain unlimited retaliations while defending but also a higher defense. And they bind blockers.
Your money will usually not be enough so you'll have to choose whether to buy them or the unicorns for a while but it's worth it in the end.

Nice guide!
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dschingi
dschingi


Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
posted January 29, 2007 03:00 PM

Sylvan is very strong indeed, I enjoy playing it. I agree with most of what you said, initiative is important and with high luck and morale + either light magic or something to slow your enemies is a deadly combination.
For the treants I recommend to build them, too. They are great tanks and  can save you from losing precious master hunters or druids. Sometimes it's useful to save your unicorns for later and take only hunters, druids and treants with you.
____________
open source for an open mind

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 29, 2007 03:11 PM

The poor creeping of this faction still kills me.

And.. guys.. don't forget that you need to kill the creature in order to unlock the avenger. And, I don't see much of the deadliest endgame stacks on the map (say, paladins and archangels for haven). Even level 5 creatures ain't that often, and there is only 1/7 chance that it will be the creature we desire it to be.. And even if it is, "lots of arch liches" sounds like "zomg I'm out of here" for sylvan anyway in the first month ;p

So.. avenger will get mostly used at lower level creatures. Sure,if you had some luck and met the creatures on the map (or battled the enemy once and killed a few of them) it's good, but still, it's not something I'd depend on. A nice bonus, but not an unstoppable killer.

Another part is that there is so little sylvan can do about a rush. Not necessarily in the first week, but even in 2nd or 3rd.. A strong magic rush or inferno's might rush.. or haven's Irina rush (very deadly..).. Many things can become very difficult to beat for sylvan.

The potential is high indeed, still, it needs a careful and very skilled player to become a very tough town. And I'm neither careful, nor very skilled lol

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted January 29, 2007 03:20 PM

I have to clear some things:

1. Why defense isn't the best choice ? The Ranger already has a huge defense, and on top of that you can cast Expert Endurance with your druids on your most important stacks, so you can get a better skill. Still that 30% defense is so tempting, just not the best choiche for sylvan.

2. Why not destructive? If you go the destructive way, you must make a major change, and go for war machines, sorcery etc. Otherwise Destructive is too slowly casted compared to Mass Light Spells, and gives too small benefits.

3. Why not Summoning & Dirael ? Using imbue multi arrow wasp swarm, might seem really powerfull, but in fact, you waste a turn casting imbue arrow, and that is unacceptable for the blitz attack of the sylvan army. Phantom Forces can be countered so easily with an Area damaging spell, and I think a Mass Righteous Might (+12 attack to all your troops), would give you much greater benefits. Also Summoning occupies a important spot(logistics, enlightment etc. instead of it).

4. Why not Treants? Sylvan is a real wood eater. The Hunters and Master Hunter building really hurt your wood stockpile, and if you decide to also get the treants, you will really face a wood crisis. Also the Treants , don't fit very well in the blitz attack that you are preparing, and since they will be defending most of the time you won't get much benefit from avenger with them either. They have their uses against inferno, defending master hunters against gating near them, but that can be done in other ways too. Also by getting treants you will have money problems, and you can't splitt your druids for 2 endurances instead of one.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted January 29, 2007 03:28 PM

Quote:
The poor creeping of this faction still kills me.

And.. guys.. don't forget that you need to kill the creature in order to unlock the avenger. And, I don't see much of the deadliest endgame stacks on the map (say, paladins and archangels for haven). Even level 5 creatures ain't that often, and there is only 1/7 chance that it will be the creature we desire it to be.. And even if it is, "lots of arch liches" sounds like "zomg I'm out of here" for sylvan anyway in the first month ;p

So.. avenger will get mostly used at lower level creatures. Sure,if you had some luck and met the creatures on the map (or battled the enemy once and killed a few of them) it's good, but still, it's not something I'd depend on. A nice bonus, but not an unstoppable killer.

Another part is that there is so little sylvan can do about a rush. Not necessarily in the first week, but even in 2nd or 3rd.. A strong magic rush or inferno's might rush.. or haven's Irina rush (very deadly..).. Many things can become very difficult to beat for sylvan.

The potential is high indeed, still, it needs a careful and very skilled player to become a very tough town. And I'm neither careful, nor very skilled lol


Sylvan's main creeping method is the "pixie run-around" in the first week. Fight the very slow creatures(Zombies, Golems, earth elementals), in the first week until you have a decent number of hunters.
Sylvan is weak against rushes indeed, but most of the maps nowadays are closed maps, which have really powerfull guards in the middle, and that gives Sylvan the chance to become a super power.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 29, 2007 03:36 PM

Quote:
I have to clear some things:

1. Why defense isn't the best choice ? The Ranger already has a huge defense, and on top of that you can cast Expert Endurance with your druids on your most important stacks, so you can get a better skill. Still that 30% defense is so tempting, just not the best choiche for sylvan.

3. Why not Summoning & Dirael ? Using imbue multi arrow wasp swarm, might seem really powerfull, but in fact, you waste a turn casting imbue arrow, and that is unacceptable for the blitz attack of the sylvan army. Phantom Forces can be countered so easily with an Area damaging spell, and I think a Mass Righteous Might (+12 attack to all your troops), would give you much greater benefits. Also Summoning occupies a important spot(logistics, enlightment etc. instead of it).



1-Didn't say it was. But vitality and evasion ARE needed and I'd rather cast lightning bolt than stoneskin with druids.

3-I know, I'm just saying she is better than most would think. And with phantom forces you can use resistance(ability or a unicorn adjacent) to negate a spell and physical attacks may miss. Another turn spent that your opponent could have hurt you more.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted January 29, 2007 04:31 PM

I agree about defense, it's not bad at all, but enlightment or leadership instead of it might be better (blitz attack wise).

This is late game we are talking about... Lightning bolt is really a bad choice. More than that, even though the stack of druids is splitt into two parts, and probably your shown damage with lightning bolt will be a little bigger than the normal damage  (because of range penalty), usually the max physical damage is somewhere around the lightning dmg, you should still not choose the lightning damage , because of two things:

1. it can be resisted
2. you will probably get luck or avenger or both on you normal damage, making it greater than the lightning damage(of course shoot after favoured enemies)

Only against phantom forces or ghost i would recommend the lightning

Yeah, true .. Dirael's not that bad.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 29, 2007 04:55 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 16:56, 29 Jan 2007.

Quote:
This is late game we are talking about... Lightning bolt is really a bad choice. More than that, even though the stack of druids is splitt into two parts, and probably your shown damage with lightning bolt will be a little bigger than the normal damage  (because of range penalty), usually the max physical damage is somewhere around the lightning dmg, you should still not choose the lightning damage , because of two things:



Actually, I disagree.. Sylvan heroes have little attack, and when facing high-defence heroes, lightning may be the best thing a druid can do against a level 7 creature, since it doesn't take def into consideration. And since it's unlikely to have level 7 creatures as racial enemies, druids actually are the best level7 killers in sylvan faction possible.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 29, 2007 05:08 PM

TowerLord was speaking of very late game, when Druids start doing more damage than with their lightning (for the record, it is very late) Of course if the damage is somewhat similar, you should ALWAYS favour the regular attack, because of the change of getting Luck, Morale or Favourite Enemy damage.

In my games however, the Druids never start dishing more damage by shooting than with the Lighting. Then again, I always have 2 stacks of Druids when possible.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted January 29, 2007 05:20 PM

who said anything about lvl 7s ?
I said that, if you were to shoot instead of using the endurance trick, you should do it against favoured enemies, instead of using the lightning attack.

And about the level 7 deal... what lvl 7 could you possibly facing that you want to take out with the druids ?
Angels , highly doubtfull you'll see them on the battlefield
Blackies ? they are imune , and also i don't think you'll see them around... maybe some shadow dragons only
Skel dragons ??? no way

So that leaves you with Titans, Archdevils and Magma Dragons... The Titans and Archdevils are lead by heroes with low defense so its better to choose normal attack if you get them as favoured. And the dwarfs have that double resistance speciality, so I'd rather not.

Anyway the point is anoter... Druids won't make that big of a difference shooting at the beggining of the battle, but casting endurance can make your dragons take quite a few punches
Also scoring a f. enemy lucky shot with 25-28 druids killed 140 skellies for me(after enduring first round of course), so it was way better than the classic Lightning Bolt on the wraiths , and also the second stack of 25-28 got lucky so really much better results this way

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 29, 2007 07:16 PM

Quote:
Angels , highly doubtfull you'll see them on the battlefield


Did you see the changes for 2.1?? Training has been nerfed so Archangels are actually a good idea. No more marksmen abuse, sorry



 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted January 29, 2007 07:23 PM

is 2.1 out? i have heard about some changes to training and necromancy, but didnt know it was out.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 29, 2007 07:48 PM

It's not. Tomorrow morning!
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted January 29, 2007 10:27 PM

Anwen getting 2% per level... isn't that the craziest thing in heroes right now ?
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted January 31, 2007 11:26 AM

Problem with Avenger in campaigns is when you don't get a hometown (but then the scenario should be adapted to this).
I find Gating and Necromancy better racial skills.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 31, 2007 11:38 AM

Yes but they are also easier to use and have less prerequisites. If avanger's enemies could change at will without visiting town...
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted January 31, 2007 11:59 AM

oh come on ... avenger is very easy to use and really effective. you have to do it only once in a game, and you should do it when you visit town to learn the spells. so it requires no special waste of time or anything. why do you need to change favoured enemies ? just watch the tavern , see your opponents main strengths and then choose those creatures as opponents. sometimes you can do it even without that, just by knowing the opposing town .

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 31, 2007 12:35 PM

In maps with 2 players sure but if there are more and you haven't uncovered their locations it's a bit different. You may have to change the enemies periodically and cucling through the list of creatures is tedious.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 31, 2007 01:22 PM

A properly set avenger in 1v1 is a killer, yes. It's still hard to do, though!

The "first strike" the emerald dragons can do with elven luck and avenger is almost five times higher then normal, and since you can utilize two-hex attack, you may destroy two strong stacks if lucky.. in one attack.

That leaves level 6-7 creatures to be dealt with, though, since they're unlikely to be the "racial" enemy. Still, killing all Irina's Griffins in first turn may turn the battle around.

If anyone finds a good way for Sylvan not to get wasted early, I may consider this faction strong (yet luck-based )

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0710 seconds