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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: The Best Caster in HoMM5 - Round 2
Thread: The Best Caster in HoMM5 - Round 2 [ This thread is 3 pages long: 1 (2) 3 ]
Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 25, 2007 01:51 PM bonus applied.
Edited by Shauku83 at 16:06, 25 Feb 2007.

Better later than never

Archlich. This creature is awesome in a variety of ways. It is an excellent shooter with best stats from level 5. In damage, only Djinn Sultan surpasses Archliches. In Necropolis army, they do a fair share of damage. This applies only into full range damage, but Deathcloud increases the overall damage. The Decay spell is perhaps the most used spell in his arsenal, and very good at softening down high tier creatures. Weakness on expert is good as well, and Suffering is excellent. Mana is a problem because you would want all of those spells cast.. therefore splitting is advised if possible…however their large size is a hindrance. They loose a lot, because damage is halved from melee penalty and death cloud doesn’t work. Their speed of 3 ensures that there is no escape once engaged in melee.

Archmage. Holds a very important place in Academy army. The Fireball is certainly a key spell… again there to deal away with high defence creatures that Academy will have trouble against because they have very little attack. He is an offensive caster, even Righteous Might serves offensive purposes. Cleansing is the only support spell, and not used that often. Academy has big natural defence from magic, like Magic Mirror. Only in the case of a Frenzy or other disastroys cases.  But even then I like to do something nasty, like Teleport my Frensied creature next to the enemy, making use of that damage increase J As for shooting, they have no range penalty. That is needed as their damage is only 7, but as with Archliches they can hit multiple enemies at once but have pretty much the same problem of being hard to protect, making their lifespan shorter than Druids for example.

Rune Patriarch. Fire Wall adds loads to the strategic possibilities. It can be used to protect your troops from incoming enemies, or it can be cast directly on enemy casters/shooters. Damage comes with area affect (all of which can set a Mark of Fire). A versatile shooter, having the biggest average damage from Fortress without attack & defence modifiers thanks to the horde-building. You can’t go wrong with this creature.

Shadow Matriarch. Possesses very useful spells. Lets start with Confusion, the spell has 2 aspects. It reduces ranged damage by 50%, or retaliation of creatures by the same amount. It is really useful against overgrown stacks of Haven, Imperial Griffins with unlimited retaliations is also a good choice. Shadow Matriarchs are the only creature capable of casting Slow, and it works well with Stunning effects of Lighting Bolt or Wasp Swarm. Their attack is not good compared to other tier 6 creatures, so casting doesn’t make you feel bad about loosing a shot. They are a heavy support unit.

Inquisitor. A supportive caster almost in it’s perfected state. Haste is always useful, Divine Strength is the most used spell however. That is because Haven troops have a very wide damage range. Imperial Griffins and Marksmen are the prime targets, but Paladins will benefit greatly as well. Endurance is a great spell, and Paladins, Angels and Imperial Griffins are the usual suspects here.  

Pit Lord. A caster that is not a shooter, and therefore acts quite differently from others. Has a level 4 Destructive spell Meteor Shower to compensate, and it works. The spell reaches so many targets that the damage is more than splendid in many cases. Most Powerful AoE caster is slow though, the fast creatures are likely fallen already. Inferno has so huge damage already, that Destructive seems more powerful in the hands of other factions. Also it hurts that a level 4 caster Archmage has equally powerful Fire Ball, making Pit Lords really feel inadequate. Add there an initiative of 8, and they sure seem to need help to gain the most of them. Their role in Inferno army is important though, especially sieges and long combats will show you that.

Druid Elder. A versatile caster, unlike Archmage who is clearly more offensive. Druid Elder has destructive spells and Endurance, so you can choose their function as an offensive or defensive caster. Emerald Dragons really appreciate that +12 Defence, as do other creatures as well. Advanced Lighting of the Druid Elders is the most damaging single target spell, so you are torn between these 2 spells, as mana is limited to 15. But they are good shooters as well, having an attack of 12! Especially with Luck + Favoured enemies of the Sylvans, the shooting is more than a viable option. They have low HP for level 4 though.

Sprite. A very valuable creature to Sylvan both early and late game. Early creeping is much easier by upgrading these, using single Sprites to do very good damage (12 per Sprite) so that Blade Dancers won’t have to suffer a heavy retaliation. Later the Cleansing is there to ruin a dark Magicians day (and night). They have minimal HP though, but initiative 14 can be used to fly her out of the danger, to an extent.

Mummy. It is a good caster, with very good spells. I don’t understand why they have 32 mana, while their spells cast 9 mana, so all cannot be used even if wanted. Expert Confusion is perfect, as well as Expert Raise Dead. So any undead army will like to have these. With initiative of 15 no shooter will be getting a turn before them in normal circumstances.

Water Elemental. Circle of Winter and Icebolt, both are good damage spells with a massive base damage, so low numbers of these do damage beyond normal limits. The most useful elemental. The Ice spells are very imbalanced for creatures, so they are actually the best caster there is. They become a melee creature after the mana is exhausted, and they have no hefty abilities to keep them fighting, like Pit Lords.

Djinn Sultan. The scariest damage dealer. The casting is a nice bonus,  as teh fastest creature of Academy might want to wait for the rest of the army. But size does matter, and you often are not having many options with these. But at least they give time for your army because they are a must target for the enemy in the first round, just like Blood Furies in Dungeon. Raise Dead & Resurrection work well with these, because they likely will do more damage than any destructive spell.

I am having the decision made between Archmages, Archliches and the Druid Elders. The potential damage that area attacks gives is so valuable, that Druids are going to settle for the 3rd place… Out of the 2 left they both have the problem of not being easily protected, but it is then more than ever that good spells are needed. Archmages have more mana and more spells, so the vote goes for the living..


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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted February 25, 2007 02:20 PM

Quote:
Better later than never


Indeed. Great review.
____________
Heroes 7 - News overview | Heroes 7 - Discussion thread

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 25, 2007 03:54 PM

Hehea. Sometimes misspellings fit perfectly

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted February 25, 2007 03:58 PM

Quote:
The Ice spells are very unbalanced for creatures


One should not confuse unbalanced with imbalanced since they differ in meaning quite a bit

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 25, 2007 04:05 PM

I know... I wrote so much in a short time that I seem to have gotten a lot of things mixed... But it's nice to keep everyone guessing what I really ment LOL (not really of course)

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted February 25, 2007 06:14 PM

Ok, since everyone likes to use a 1-10 rating, but NEVER use the full scale, I've decided to do so.  Here is my ratings on overall effectiveness.  I do NOT take the hero into account because you could take over a 2nd castle and have a hero not belonging to the faction.

Archlich - 8

Archmage - 6

Rune Patriarch - 4

Shadow Matriarch - 5

Inquisitor - 3

Pit Lord - 9

Druid Elder - 10

Sprite - 2

Mummy - 8

Water Elemental - 7

Djinn Sultan - 1

Druid elders are best for these reasons:

1) Attack spell (single target)
2) Area attack spell
3) Defensive spell
4) Mana feed
5) Ranged attack
6) Several castings possible because of large mana pool
7) Middle tier

All of those combined make it the best overall.  It's a jack of all trades, but very effective as well.

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted February 25, 2007 06:48 PM

Pointless to rate creatures without taking heroes, spells.. etc into consideration if you ask me, the best example is the archlich, who cares if it does some uber damage on paper if in lategame it gets pathetic for a necro hero? Again: No morale, no luck, 0 ATT, no retribution etc etc. Ofc necro hero grants them other bonuses, but it's really weird to cheer at their damage if it's not their main strength (not for necromancer, anyway). Well, just my two cents.

And other heroes don't really fit the towns well, their racial becomes disabled and they often miss the needed spells. Besides, the 2nd hero in tavern gets random, so it may be a demonlord, but also a warlock smth like that.

Without the randomness, Necros would obviously benefit from a knight hero: He couldn't raise the troops, but he would give them serious bonues and he would find dark spells in the guild, making it a nice idea to go for a fallen knight.

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 25, 2007 07:09 PM
Edited by Shauku83 at 19:32, 25 Feb 2007.

Quote:
Pointless to rate creatures without taking heroes, spells.. etc into consideration if you ask me, the best example is the archlich, who cares if it does some uber damage on paper if in lategame it gets pathetic for a necro hero? Again: No morale, no luck, 0 ATT, no retribution etc etc.


So which necro creatures do get these bonuses?

In other words, if those things make Archliches pathetic it would have to make all necro creatures pathetic. If that is the case Necro would never win...

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted February 25, 2007 08:14 PM

Bah, proper use of darkmagic can do wonders. And it's obviously the main point of playing necro, otherwise you will get always thrashed by knights or elves. Just compare their morale, stat bonuses, luck etc. with necro's and it's quite obvious necro is in disadvantage until they use dark magic to nullify it. Arch Liches do little damage for necro heroes in fact, if you don't believe just play duel and compare 30 archliches to 80 master hunters of ossir and you will see, not to mention that master hunters are easier to protect than those huge liches.

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 25, 2007 08:22 PM
Edited by Shauku83 at 20:24, 25 Feb 2007.

In my opinion it is necessary to compare who does the damage inside Necro army. Someone in the army has to be doing damage, they cannot win by dark Magic alone. So looking at the relations of Necro creatures to each other, who does damage and how much, gives a better understanding of the role/usefulness of the creatures.

Instead of comparing damage of Archliches to Master Hunters, they should be compared to other Necro creatures. Surely they are no Wraiths, but honestly they do fare quite well.


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VokialBG
VokialBG

Hero of Order
First in line
posted February 25, 2007 08:23 PM
Edited by VokialBG at 20:25, 25 Feb 2007.

Quote:
Bah, proper use of darkmagic can do wonders. And it's obviously the main point of playing necro, otherwise you will get always thrashed by knights or elves.



Wrong! Totaly wrong! Elves are really the easiest enemy And actually necro is not only Dark Magic, I prefer might, not magic I'm useing the defence not the offense or the magic, and really If you can play with necro you can defeat every enemy only with might (and Rise Dead )

I know you guys can't play with necro or you do not play, so do not make a conclusions like this one, if you want to make a conclusions play with necro 2 or 3 months you'll become ultimate player, if you want to be good necro player you must learn a long time...
____________

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted February 25, 2007 08:24 PM

I'm no fun of such comparing either, and the duelmode ain't the best example either (very unrealistic armies), but trust me, Arch Liches did less damage than knight's untrained marksmen in the long run, although marksmen's damage is 106 per week and Archliches' one exceeds 1is around 150-160 (don't remember exactly).

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Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted February 25, 2007 08:41 PM

I find the witches very useful as they have tactical spells. Of course the Djinn sultan have a great potential, but it takes much room and is not reliable. The Archlich's Decay can add a nice flavour to the combat too

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 25, 2007 08:54 PM

I bet that Marksmen or Master Hunters can score more damage than ANY creature in Necro army. Their damage is way biger than normal creature on that level. You can't hold that against Archliches alone, even though they are all shooters. It is the nature of the entire Necro army to be able to receive more damage, yet not inflict that much.

The thing is that enemy will want to go for Archliches. They can't be protected, but even when blocked they can a) remain as damage dealers with Decay or b) serve as a supportive unit for the rest of the army by weakening the opposition.

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted February 25, 2007 08:54 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 20:56, 25 Feb 2007.

Quote:
Wrong! Totaly wrong! Elves are really the easiest enemy


If you rush.. sure.. I wouldn't be so quick to underestimate their potential later on, though.

Quote:
And actually necro is not only Dark Magic, I prefer might, not magic


Than go play haven?

Quote:
I'm useing the defence not the offense or the magic, and really If you can play with necro you can defeat every enemy only with might (and Rise Dead )


Go raise dead against a good warlock then. With 2-3k damage implosion your tiny-damage units will lie dead on the ground before his mana ends.

Quote:
I know you guys can't play with necro or you do not play, so do not make a conclusions like this one, if you want to make a conclusions play with necro 2 or 3 months you'll become ultimate player, if you want to be good necro player you must learn a long time...


We must play sometime than, Vokial. I think you are the one that's overconfident here, not us



Shauku83: That's exactly my point: Archliches are not damage dealers, but supportive casters WITH an ability to do some ranged damage if necessary. That's why I don't understand why most people keep talking about their offensive potential which, again, is great on paper.

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 25, 2007 09:26 PM

So who are the damage dealers in Necro army? Is there any


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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted February 25, 2007 09:36 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 21:37, 25 Feb 2007.

wraights still do a lot, even though the lack of bonuses. Skellie archers used to be a killer too, but it's in the past. Finally, spectrals: yes they suck, but if you can get them and their horde building somehow, they aren't much worse than emerald dragons in terms of damage and they are very, very durable with huge hp (with horde building) and necro's defense.

Hey, boosted archliches via necromancy can be scary aswell, not THAT they don't do any damage They just aren't that strong in endgame in dealing damage as stats show, that's all.

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Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted February 25, 2007 10:50 PM

Quote:
Skellie archers used to be a killer too, but it's in the past.
I must have been sleeping, but when did skel-archers get nerfed and what did change?

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted February 26, 2007 08:44 AM

Quote:
Pointless to rate creatures without taking heroes, spells.. etc into consideration if you ask me, the best example is the archlich, who cares if it does some uber damage on paper if in lategame it gets pathetic for a necro hero? Again: No morale, no luck, 0 ATT, no retribution etc etc.
Now you're wrong here.

Bonuses from the hero does not represent the creature, it represents the hero. That is, if Liches do double damage because of the hero, then you should rate the hero high, NOT THE LICHES. And as far as I can see, you love might heroes since they boost up your army. Anyway, in truth, you're completely wrong. As I see, you should rate the hero, not the creature.. The creature itself is, well, the one you see at the dwelling

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted February 26, 2007 08:45 AM

You're wrong about the Necro hero! The basic Spellpower/Defense of the necromancer is certanly only 50% of the total you get from Map Objects/Artifacts!

Did I tell you about a 14 ATT and 10 DEF with a Wizard (Faiz)

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