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| Thread: Luck and Morale - a discussion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2007 01:08 PM |
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How about Leadership, rather than giving morale, increasing the bonus of the Morale? I mean, look here:
None: reset to 0.2 ATB when Morale triggers
Basic: reset to 0.27 ATB when Morale triggers
Advanced: reset to 0.33 ATB when Morale triggers
Expert: reset to 0.4 ATB when Morale triggers
... or something like this. I know this way Leadership would have a minor effect but those values can be tweakened or one can come with something else to consider (one is to increase the maximum Morale you can have with this skill)
hey that is a very good idea! numbers may be changed of corse
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 21, 2007 01:19 PM |
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Well given that luck bonus would be 66% I don't think it becomes THAT powerful, a 100% chance to trigger would just mean +66% damage, roughly on par with expert righteous might as you've mentioned, while your attack can still be boosted in other ways.
Luck should NOT be as good as Expert Righteous Might! Spells must always be better because:
a) you have to cast them
b) cost mana
c) have a duration (though it is pretty high)
d) can be dispelled
But I agree that 100% luck would be hard to achieve
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hey that is a very good idea! numbers may be changed of corse
Well, after some thinking, I realize Expert Leadership should give 0.5 ATB after all, because it's hard to get Exp. Leadership and max morale as it was before. But I'm not a balance guru anyway (though mostly I like things balanced)
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Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted March 21, 2007 01:32 PM |
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I agree to the leadeship-ATB idea. Very good 
100% luck is even achiavable today for some of the elves; actually it is 125% with elven luck, but the path there is hard.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 21, 2007 02:13 PM |
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Quote:
How about Leadership, rather than giving morale, increasing the bonus of the Morale? I mean, look here:
None: reset to 0.2 ATB when Morale triggers
Basic: reset to 0.27 ATB when Morale triggers
Advanced: reset to 0.33 ATB when Morale triggers
Expert: reset to 0.4 ATB when Morale triggers
... or something like this. I know this way Leadership would have a minor effect but those values can be tweakened or one can come with something else to consider (one is to increase the maximum Morale you can have with this skill).
This is a quite interesting idea. The implications of such a change would be very far reaching, as it would mean a MAJOR boost in the strength of Leadership - maybe even too much, I don't know. Morale without Leadership would be much less attractive, and I'm not sure we necessarily want that.
On the other hand, there's no denying that this is very similar to the approach of most spells - that you can use them without the appropriate skill, but they will be practically worthless (Wasp Swarm without skill - a joke; Expert Wasp Swarm - extremely powerfull).
Would you vouch for a similar system for Luck? So that:
None: + 50 % Damage
Basic: +60 % Damage
Advanced: + 80 % Damage
Expert: + 100 % Damage
Or am I taking the idea of symmetry too far now?
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What will happen now?
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 21, 2007 02:17 PM |
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Quote:
100% luck is even achiavable today for some of the elves; actually it is 125% with elven luck, but the path there is hard.
I think it was about chances here that 100% means all the time Morale (it's not my idea)
Quote:
Would you vouch for a similar system for Luck? So that:
None: + 50 % Damage
Basic: +60 % Damage
Advanced: + 80 % Damage
Expert: + 100 % Damage
Or am I taking the idea of symmetry too far now?
Me personally, I don't see this a bad idea, only for the fact that Elven Luck already improves luck's damage (and I don't want it to be like the skill). Sure, Elven Luck can be changed too...
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2007 02:17 PM |
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This may be good balance. Sorcerers need proper skills to gain significant boosts , might heroes need just artifacts, they don't NEED ability itself. This is not fair in my opinion, this change would balance things out.
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 21, 2007 04:21 PM |
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hmmm... that may be but in your square I would suggest swapping dungeon with necropolis. Necropolis is far more lawful than Dungeon.
That's why they have a Keeper of the Law Whereas necros follow their whim. The whole matriarch idea IS lawful as it represents strict hierarchy.
Nearly lawful... They are just a band of clans, constantly fighting each other. You call this ORDER? There is strict hierarchy within tribe, yes, but not between tribes. They crumble like frenzied dogs in a pit. I support my argument that necros are more lawful.
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Though I'd change some alingments:
Neutral Good means 'Kind'. There's no way Academy is kind with those arrogant mages. I'd place Sylvan in this position.
Academy should be Lawful Neutral, and Fortress Chaotic Good
just my 2 cents
Very good remark. Well I am still not shure whether Fortress should't be neutral good, and Sylvan chaotic good. Dwarves seem to be more lawful than elves.
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Dendroid
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 21, 2007 10:19 PM |
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Perhaps a bit drastic, but what would you guys say if we just skipped luck as a thing you can choose? Why not letting your state of luck be deceided by the luck-bringing artefacts you have and the fountains you visit? I mean, you can't really practice or learn luck now can you? But you can learn how to be a good leader and to motivate your troops. Certain skills you get with luck, should be reassigned to other skills than. For example: Magic ressistance --> Defense, soldiers luck ----> Attack and resourcefullness --> Morale.
That's why I'm a morale fan, it is a skill you can really learn..
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted March 21, 2007 11:03 PM |
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First of all, I'm all for improvements.
I think there is a general flaw in the concept of morale here in Heroes 5. Morale is how happy your troops are. How strong and confident they are.
Morale should NOT be based on luck. Luck obviously should be! So luck should be left as is, with a CHANCE to fire.
Morale, however, needs to be changed to a fixed amount. It makes it consistent. It should be a little less powerful than luck though for many reasons. One, it affects damage, actions, movement, etc. Luck is ONLY for damage. Two, something being consistent is generally better than something not (based on luck).
Therefore, I propose that morale have nothing to do with "luck" of the random number generator anymore. It should do a fixed increase on initiative and damage. Perhaps make initiative increase by 4% per point and damage increase also by 4% per point.
The whole concept of someone's morale not being high one round, then high all of the sudden, then not high doesn't make sense. In the real world, morale is either higher or not. As your troops get killed, it lowers. As you begin to win, it raises. That's how I believe it SHOULD be implemented. I'm sure this will never happen though.
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Dendroid
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 21, 2007 11:09 PM |
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Quote:
The whole concept of someone's morale not being high one round, then high all of the sudden, then not high doesn't make sense. In the real world, morale is either higher or not. As your troops get killed, it lowers. As you begin to win, it raises. That's how I believe it SHOULD be implemented. I'm sure this will never happen though.
I agree with this. On the other hand, if you look in real live, when you get a break sometimes, it can can boost you morale for sure. If you for example shoot an arrow dead centre in your target with your eyes closed, you are lucky. You can laugh about it with you're fellow archers and with that you're morale raises. So in the distance, there is a connection with luck and morale.
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nocaplato
Adventuring Hero
Lover of Ancient Philosophy
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posted March 22, 2007 12:53 AM |
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Heh, heh, maybe it's not that Luck and Morale/Leadership are overpowered, but that everything else is underpowered  .
While mostly this is a joke, there is something to consider. Think of the magic skills, it doesn't matter which ones, but Light or Dark seem to be forum favorites (I'll admit to being a Warlock lover though). Is it accurate to say that Light Magic is overpowered? Consider what it does for you: Increase effectiveness of spells, provides mass effects (and increases spell casting speed), gives you access to a huge range of upper level spells (these, in turn, make your armies fantastic killing machines). All in all, that's a heck of a lot from a single skill... far more versatile and dangerous than say, Attack (I can hear the clacking of keys as people disagree with this, but remember the main point- a single magic skill is an incredibly powerful pick). Given the four magic picks, each is arguabely an 'overpowered' pick.
Luck and Leadership seem to hold their own in this view for so many of the reasons this discussion is happening in the first place. Adding the magics, and several other skills (several racial skills in particular) there seems to be a split, some half or so skills that, upon close examination, can be seen as imbalanced, and the others (maybe even a majority) which are apparently underpowered.
Maybe the answer is amping up a skill like Logistics or Attack, rather than nerfing these others.
Eh, just food for thought.
Oh, I absolutely love the chart by the way Alcibiades.
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Pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted March 22, 2007 06:01 AM |
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Edited by Pomo at 06:02, 22 Mar 2007.
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Well I'm not sure that I agree that attack is underpowered - (logistics most certainly is NOT ) The difference between attack and light magic is that it's passive; so you don't have to do anything or spend your time in combat to get the benefit. Attack also has a number of VERY useful abilities associated with it - tactics and retribution in particular are well, simply great.... 
Edit: oh and welcome btw, I don't think I've seen you post before. 
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linkTouched by His Noodly Appendage
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 22, 2007 11:44 AM |
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Good post, Nocaplato - while I don't agree with you that the combat skills are underpowered, you are right that skills light Light Magic and Dark Magic are extremely powerful - plus consider the effects of Master of Blessings/Wrath/Abjurations/Pain/Mind/Curses; these are the basic abilities in their respective Skill, and still they are incredibly usefull!
Attack and Logistics (and probably also Defence) can keep up with them though (more or less at least), because they are passive, and Attack have some amazing abilities tied to it - Archery, Battle Frenzy and Tactics are all great abilities, not to mention Retribution that some classes have. Logistics and Defence maybe are slighly less useful in terms of the abilities, though most classes have some really good specialised abilities in Logistics - such as Teleport Assault and Silent Stalker (the latter is a favorite of mine).
Anyway, that was a lot of talk to bring me around to what was actually my main point of this post. someone mentioned it a long time ago, but Leadership have some really poor abilities tied to it, and I wonder whether one could tweak them to make them more attractive. Here are some loose suggestions:
Diplomacy is probably fine as it is (haven't got much experience with this ability).
Estates currently is a complete waste of a level and a skill slot. I would suggest instead of the fixed bonus like now, that one added a level dependant bonus, maybe something like 50 x level in gold, plus possibly some bonus ressources, like the table below (the cyclic rotation of the ressources means that at level 16, you will have 1 of each of the precious ressources).
Recruitement is another really lousy skill. First of all, it requires that you have the Hero present in the town for it to work. This effectively blocks out its usefulness on main Hero (though it's usefull on secondary Heroes).
I would suggest something like the Heroes 4 Nobility approach: That you tied the Hero to one city, where the skill worked. Also, the bonus should be level dependant, possibly something like increases growth by 1 % per level. Thus would effectively give you a seizable bonus of low level creatures, whereas the high level ones would only come in late game (+1 Level 6 unit at level 25, +1 Level 5 unit at level 17, +1 Level 4 unit at level 10 and +2 at level 20).
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 22, 2007 11:46 AM |
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I agree with Pomo: Attack is NOT underpowered. I mean, heroes should not have such strong skills like Luck so that two-three levels won't be extremely powerful. I don't want the heroes to become killing-machines (ok, for might ones their armies)
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Estates currently is a complete waste of a level and a skill slot. I would suggest instead of the fixed bonus like now, that one added a level dependant bonus, maybe something like 50 x level in gold, plus possibly some bonus ressources, like the table below (the cyclic rotation of the ressources means that at level 16, you will have 1 of each of the precious ressources).
Estates is not as useless as Recruitment. But I agree it should be improved...
Quote:
Recruitement is another really lousy skill. First of all, it requires that you have the Hero present in the town for it to work. This effectively blocks out its usefulness on main Hero (though it's usefull on secondary Heroes).
I would suggest something like the Heroes 4 Nobility approach: That you tied the Hero to one city, where the skill worked. Also, the bonus should be level dependant, possibly something like increases growth by 1 % per level. Thus would effectively give you a seizable bonus of low level creatures, whereas the high level ones would only come in late game (+1 Level 6 unit at level 25, +1 Level 5 unit at level 17, +1 Level 4 unit at level 10 and +2 at level 20).
Actually, I'd like Recruitment to increase the growth of the low level creatures only. But still I like your approach about the % percentage (this means that Dungeon won't be the faction who benefits most from this ability).
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 22, 2007 12:16 PM |
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that's a nice suggestion, Alcibiades, although.. err..estates belongs to leadership, leadership is rare skill, available mainly to knights, so every knight, except being an exceptionaly powerful melee force, would be a walking goldmine aswell  That would make the +13 paladins per week even more abused, so.. perhaps a whole new skill called nobility should be created? Hah, that would be fun.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 22, 2007 12:29 PM |
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Come on, Alc's improvement in Estates is not that bad. And you sacrifice a level up for it (you could take Divine Guidance or such)
If Training is your problem then I suggest make it more expensive. It's too cheap now, dammit!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 22, 2007 12:43 PM |
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Nival always does it: From imbalanced to abysmal, from very expensive to very cheap etc That's why I fear their "balance changes" pretty much
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 22, 2007 12:47 PM |
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that's a nice suggestion, Alcibiades, although.. err..estates belongs to leadership, leadership is rare skill, available mainly to knights, so every knight, except being an exceptionaly powerful melee force, would be a walking goldmine aswell That would make the +13 paladins per week even more abused, so.. perhaps a whole new skill called nobility should be created? Hah, that would be fun.
Well, first of all, it goes before anything, that Training must be changed, before any other changes to the game. I have given my suggestion to what I feel would make the skill very nice in the Wishes for Future Patches thread.
That being said, yes, Leadership is indeed the one skill that is least available, which is a pitty, really, because I think several factions could actually have very good use of it with some of the suggestions made here. For instance, Academy would benefit greatly from the Estates bonus. So one might want to tweek the availibility of the skills between the factions - I will look into that later.
However, all that should not be an excuse for not changing the Estates ability. The bonuses I suggest might be too big, but remember, that the ability should be on the same level as other abilities, and most of them are very powerful indeed. I favor the idea of a bonus that grows with level, because otherwise you will just end up with either a) a ridiculous bonus, like the current 250 Gold, or b) a seizable bonus, making the ability overpowered on secondary Heroes.
About the REcruitement changes, ZombieLord, they would mainly affect low levels. The below tables show the bonuses added at level 1-20 for Haven (highest creature growth?) and Dungeon (lowest creature growth). I had not specifically taken that into account, but you are very right that it's a good thing that the new system would meen that Dungeon got much fewer units, making it more ballanced between the factions.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 22, 2007 01:57 PM |
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The table shows it clear. Now I understand how it really works
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 22, 2007 02:33 PM |
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Nival always does it: From imbalanced to abysmal, from very expensive to very cheap etc That's why I fear their "balance changes" pretty much
I commpletely agree.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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