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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: High tier creatures overpriced?
Thread: High tier creatures overpriced? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted February 23, 2007 06:36 PM

High tier creatures overpriced?

NOTE: this topic does not include growth, only the price. That is because everyone knows the higher tier creatures have more growth than the lower tier creatures (in terms of power, because even if there are 16 Imps vs. 1 Devil, the power of the Devil is MUUUUCH higher than that of 16 Imps)

For the comparison, I chose two creatures that have the same special abilities, so that we can compare stat-by-stat.

Skeleton:
ATTACK: 1
DEFENSE: 2
DAMAGE: 1-1
HIT POINTS: 4
SPEED: 5
INITIATIVE: 10
COST: 17

Wight:
ATTACK: 24
DEFENSE: 22
DAMAGE: 20-25
HIT POINTS: 95
SPEED: 6
INITIATIVE: 11
COST: 1400


We'll have to divied the cost of the Wight by the cost of the Skeleton, to find out how many skeletons are equal in terms of power to one Wight..

1400/17 = 82.35294 (82 Skeletons)

Now, let's see the stats of 82 Skeletons:
ATTACK: 1
DEFENSE: 2
DAMAGE: 82-82
HIT POINTS: 328
SPEED: 5
INITIATIVE: 10

Now, to apply Attack and Defense, I'll consider the Skeletons attack the Wight and vice-versa:

The damage of the skeletons will be: 82 / (1 + 0.05*(22-1)) = 82 / 2.05 = 40
The average damage of the wight will be: 22.5 * (1 + 0.05*(24-2)) = 22.5 * 2.1 = 47.25

As you see, the damage is almost the same, but the nasty thing is that the skeletons have more than three times the amount of Hit Points!!!

For tier 7 creatures is even worse, as they cost precious resources (and I won't even include them here)

Let's compare with a creature that has no special abilities, like the Angel (ok, it can fly but...). Not to mention the Angles/ArchAngels and Cavaliers/Paladins are waaay to cheap relative to their power. Don't know why Nival did this DAMN TRAINING

Let's see the stats of the Angel:
ATTACK: 27
DEFENSE: 27
DAMAGE: 45
HIT POINTS: 180
SPEED: 6
INITIATIVE: 11
COST: 3200 (too cheap compared to other tier 7s... and relative to its power) + 1 Crystal (we'll ignore this...)

Again, let's divide the costs:
3200/17 = 188.235294 (188 Skeletons)

Now, let's see the stats of 188 Skeletons:
ATTACK: 1
DEFENSE: 2
DAMAGE: 188-188
HIT POINTS: 752
SPEED: 5
INITIATIVE: 10

We'll apply attack and defense in the same manner as before:

The damage of the skeletons will be: 188 / (1 + 0.05*(27-1)) = 188 / 2.3 = 81.7391
The damage of the angel will be: 45 * (1 + 0.05*(27-2)) = 45 * 2.25 = 101.25

As you see, the damage of the angel is a little bit higher, but the hit points of the skeletons are 752/180 = 4.17777 times those of the angel!!!


This leads to the conclusion that the higher tier creatures are either overpriced or have too few hit points. Not to mention the low tier creatures can be buffed significantly with Battle Frenzy and Vitality and that the tier 7s become easy targets for damaging spells (or Grim Raider's Rider charge ability) because they ignore the high defense of those creatures.

And everyone thought the higher tier creatures are GODs... that's because the low tier creatures have very low growth, according to their low price and power
What I think should be done is to increase the HP of the high tier creatures so that they will be more worth their price; this way, TheDeath's Multiple Dwelling idea could be implemented, without worring about the lower tier creatures being overpowered.


So, if you have unlimited growth (somehow), go for low tier creatures!

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blink
blink


Adventuring Hero
posted February 23, 2007 08:39 PM
Edited by blink at 20:42, 23 Feb 2007.

You're ignoring the fact that an angel with only 1 hitpoint left still deals full damage, while every 4 damage points to the skeleton stack decreases its damage output.  Not to mention that an angle can take 100 damage in 20 different fights and still be just as usable while a skeleton stack that takes that much damage with be weaker in each successive fight.

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted February 23, 2007 08:52 PM

Blink has excellent points.  That definitely makes the higher tier units worth the price.  Also think about the extra "bonuses" the higher tier creatures get.  For example, the tent with someone with Advanced War Machines.  Healing 50 hit points on an angel (that has high defense) vs 8 hit points (capped) on a skeleton.

There are a lot of little things like this that make a huge difference.

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Jospan
Jospan

Tavern Dweller
posted February 23, 2007 09:20 PM
Edited by Jospan at 21:24, 23 Feb 2007.

The first thing that came to my mind when i started reading this post is EXACTLY what Blink said.

If i have a pack of Titans, its better to travel with them killing lots of low level monsters, than to take large amounts of gremlins.

Each battle, any damage the gremlins take will take some of them killed, and the Titans can take 150 damage or so, without loosing any Titans.

On the Other Hand, as ZombieLord pointed, Low Level creatures can exploit MUCH more eficiently bonuses from artifacts, abilities and magic.

Example: I'm Academy Player (people shall be already aware, since i always use Academy examples LOL). When I see my army, I note that some creatures needs to improve some stats in order to survive or do more damage:

-Master Gremlins need more Health (needs to survive longer)
-Obs. Gargoyles need more attack (needs to do more damage)
-Master Djinns needs more Health (or even defense)... (OMG they need DESPERATELY to survive!!)

I look at Master Gremlins and make an artifact (with Artificer ofc.) with +4 Health, +5 Attack and +5 Defense. As u can see, it can make Gremlins survive even TRIPLE longer, plus do more damage

To Obs. Gargoyles, I can make an artifact with +Attack (obviously) and plus put +Speed, Initiative, well, anything helps. Even more defense, for even higher tank purposes.

When I see Master Djinns, i just realise even with artifacts it wont help that much! +6 Health? 15% more? ... Defense? Increase a little bit? OK, I'll do it, but it wont solve, cause its a High Level creature

Same thing we can say about Vittality, and the light magics! (Altough lower levels are also much more vulnerable to Dark Spells)

So seeing all of this, I think the creatures may even be one more expensive than other, or not, doesnt matter. What matter is that Low levels deppends on High Levels support, and vice-versa.

EDIT: Oh many times i wrote "Master Djinn" I meant Djinn Sultan, you know, used to H3
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 23, 2007 09:34 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 21:38, 23 Feb 2007.

Quote:
Blink has excellent points.  That definitely makes the higher tier units worth the price.  Also think about the extra "bonuses" the higher tier creatures get.  For example, the tent with someone with Advanced War Machines.  Healing 50 hit points on an angel (that has high defense) vs 8 hit points (capped) on a skeleton.

There are a lot of little things like this that make a huge difference.


another point: abilities. Skeletons have 0. Creatures like archangels can ressurect, for instance, and they fly. Every special counts.

ALthough I must agree that they offer WAY to little HP.. even 240 HP blackies die like flies. Magma dragons should have 400 HP to make them really fearsome, Blacks 300, other level7s should be adequate. Seriously, current level7 creatures' HP sucks. I guess nival wanted to end the level7s domination on the battlefield, but they introduced too many counters already (vorpal swords, hero attacks, spellcasters etc), and level7 units suddenly became weak.

Another point is that on small map, the battle that can happen around first month will give you one population of level7s and 3-4 populations of other creatures, making level7s very weak in comparison with other creatures.

And some level7 dwellings really cost too much.. contrary to titans' colossi, which is too cheap. 5 gems? Don't make me laugh.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted February 23, 2007 11:17 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 23:21, 23 Feb 2007.

Doomforge > You raise an interesting point with the Level 7 HP. Should we for the fun of it try to mod them all - increase the HP and see if it throws the game completely off balance? Do you have some suggestions for suitable numbers for the complete range? Something like:

Magma Dragons: 350 (or 400?)
Black Dragons: 300 (or 320?)
Archangels: 250 (or 275?)
Archdevils: 233 (or 266?)
Emerald Dragon: 225 (or 250?)
Titan: 220 (or 230?)
Spectral Dragon: 180 (or 190?)

Also, I would like to try to give the Titan Lightning Immunity and the Chainlightning Spell.
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What will happen now?

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TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted February 24, 2007 05:27 AM

OP: One more problem: You had the skeleton and the high tier guy attack EACH OTHER but if you want to properly compare them, you need to have them both attack the SAME thing. Attacking each other skews it in the high tier unit's favor as it gets massive bonuses due to its high attack versus skelly's low stats.

I still agree that the high tier units have things that more than make up for this "weakness." Don't forget that the higher tier guy due to better initiative and/or speed will most likely get to hit the skellies first, wiping out a good portion of that stack before the skellies even get to hit back (and wipe out even more with each successive hit.)

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted February 24, 2007 10:55 AM

Quote:
What I think should be done is to increase the HP of the high tier creatures so that they will be more worth their price; this way, TheDeath's Multiple Dwelling idea could be implemented, without worring about the lower tier creatures being overpowered.
Didn't think you really liked my Multiple Dwelling idea. Thx

Quote:
Blink has excellent points.  That definitely makes the higher tier units worth the price.  Also think about the extra "bonuses" the higher tier creatures get.  For example, the tent with someone with Advanced War Machines.  Healing 50 hit points on an angel (that has high defense) vs 8 hit points (capped) on a skeleton.

There are a lot of little things like this that make a huge difference.
Yeah like Battle Frenzy or Vitality on low-level creatures

And 82 Skeletons are more powerful than 1 Wight (I mean, the "power" ratio which Nival chose, you can see it in the creatures' respective .xdb file).

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted February 24, 2007 11:12 AM

Quote:
another point: abilities. Skeletons have 0. Creatures like archangels can ressurect, for instance, and they fly. Every special counts.

Yes but I was talking about the Angel, not ArchAngel. If I would have chosen the ArchAngel's price (4200), the power of the skellies would have been much stronger

@Blink: yes, high tier creatures are good for creeping. But in a player vs player fight, how many times you see 'kills: None' on a tier 7 creature? You will certanly kill some angels, which means the skellies won't be much in a disadvantage there (the angels won't ALWAYS have very few hit points left). So yes, the low tier creatures may have low growth, but they ARE better in price than the tier 7s

@TheDeath: yeah, looks like Nival knows the high tier creatures are overpriced

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted February 24, 2007 11:18 AM

Quote:
And some level7 dwellings really cost too much.. contrary to titans' colossi, which is too cheap. 5 gems? Don't make me laugh.

You know why they are expensive? Because they offer MUCH better growth than a tier1 dwelling... compare 20 Gremlin vs 1 Colossi and you'll see

That's why I think the Multiple Dwelling idea by TheDeath would fit: because even if the low level dwellings are cheap (and you can place many of them - that's what the idea is about) the high level dwellings offer better growth (relative to power, ofc). You could make the second tier 1 dwelling require town points as a tier 2 dwelling, the third as a tier 3 dwelling, etc; and the second tier 2 dwelling require town points as a tier 3 dwelling... this, ofc, to avoid rushes.

Anybody knows why the Necropolis tier 7 dwelling is the most expensive when it offers the weakest tier 7 creature?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 24, 2007 11:25 AM

That's the same question as: Why you can choose 500-1000 gold in the beginning if you can choose an artifact that costs 5-6k in the artie merchant. They just wanted to implement too much things from h3.. everyone says spectrals were weak in h3 (which is not true, and ESPECIALLY for WoG with balance script on which makes them on pair with strongest level 7 creatures), so they made them weak here, too.. no idea why their dwelling costs so much, though.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted February 24, 2007 11:55 AM

Quote:
Anybody knows why the Necropolis tier 7 dwelling is the most expensive when it offers the weakest tier 7 creature?
Because it's meant to suck

Nival are always based on "feelings" rather than strong statements.. probably they felt spectrals should be weak and costly

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Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted February 25, 2007 09:31 PM

Yes, bonedragons suck! But "at least" you can build the fabolous tombstone

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siinn
siinn


Adventuring Hero
posted March 18, 2007 02:57 AM

I agree with the theory of 7th level creatures having too few HP.
And the main reason is the advantage taken by low level creatures with some buff... it's just a question of number: legion of skeleton = legion x damages!

I think that such a balance could be welcome

Magma Dragons: 400
Black Dragons: 320
Archangels: 275
Archdevils: 266
Emerald Dragon: 250
Titan: 240
Spectral Dragon: 210

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Halm
Halm


Hired Hero
posted March 18, 2007 11:14 AM

Quote:

The damage of the skeletons will be: 188 / (1 + 0.05*(27-1)) = 188 / 2.3 = 81.7391
The damage of the angel will be: 45 * (1 + 0.05*(27-2)) = 45 * 2.25 = 101.25

As you see, the damage of the angel is a little bit higher, but the hit points of the skeletons are 752/180 = 4.17777 times those of the angel!!!




Sorry for beeing a smartass, but you should include the iniative in your caculation. Although it would not change much.

The damage of the angel will be: 101.25*11/10=111.


But your conclusion ist still right, the skeleton is pretty cheap.
Maybe lower triers must be cheap because you usually don't start with a capitol.

Or what about this theory:
The developers did the same what they did with creature's magic, which was weakend logarthmic too.

Assume we have two players, with the same town. Player 1 has only enough money to buy the lower tiers.
The other is lucky and finds twice the amouth of gold and can afford the building of the higher tiers.

If the higher tiers were even stronger the advantage of player 2 would become even bigger. This way the advantage of the rich player is weakend. This can keep the game more interessting.

Because with doulbe the money your army doesn't get the double strenght. This is still fair because an army which is two times stronger still beats the weaker one without losing half of it's troops.
This is the 2 Creatures beat 1 without losses effekt.

In the end, I think it's already pretty balanced.

Altough I would like more HP for the higher tiers, because it would make the might heroes even stronger.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 18, 2007 01:42 PM

Naw, I'd say it would make level7 units not so useless as they are at the moment. Bonus to health would fix their fragility problem.

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Halm
Halm


Hired Hero
posted March 19, 2007 11:00 AM

A good test if the higher tiers are worth their money would be.

If you don't have enough money to buy all creatures you want. In which order would you buy them?



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Pomo
Pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted March 19, 2007 12:05 PM

I think that obviously depends on the faction and your opponent. Also you should probably base your decision to buy one creature or another on some kind of reasoning about the effectiveness of the creature that precedes the decision to buy it, not simply infer that you bought it first therefore it must be best. Not saying that you don't do this already, but what you're suggesting is bad reasoning - if a new player thinks 'wow bone dragons - they really rock in AD&D - I'll spend all my money on them' does it make them the best? Obviously not

I see what you're saying, but basically I think you have it backwards - what you're proposing is not a test, it already reflects the outcome of a (explicit or implicit) judgement of worth - to say anything concrete you need to understand why certain creatures are better value for money.
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Halm
Halm


Hired Hero
posted March 20, 2007 10:54 AM

Quote:
I think that obviously depends on the faction and your opponent. Also you should probably base your decision to buy one creature or another on some kind of reasoning about the effectiveness of the creature that precedes the decision to buy it, not simply infer that you bought it first therefore it must be best. Not saying that you don't do this already, but what you're suggesting is bad reasoning - if a new player thinks 'wow bone dragons - they really rock in AD&D - I'll spend all my money on them' does it make them the best? Obviously not

I see what you're saying, but basically I think you have it backwards - what you're proposing is not a test, it already reflects the outcome of a (explicit or implicit) judgement of worth - to say anything concrete you need to understand why certain creatures are better value for money.



Okay I make an example. The first tier I would buy when playing haven are the marksmen. I'll do it because I think they are the best creature for their money. I can't give a good reason why probalby just experience.

Inferno  ->Imp
Dungeon  -> Blood Fury
Silvan   -> Hunter
Akademy  -> Gremlins
Nekropolis-> Skeletons Archers  
I think the bone dragons are in deed one of the worst nekropolis creature (considering their price). Not because they are weak, but because nekropolis has better creatues for their price. Many tiers 7 are pretty expensive for their strenght... that's what we are diskussing about?

Have you similar preferences? (I assume you are no one who judges creatues by their names or looks).

This is somehow subjektive, probably archers are preffered but I'll can look for objektive nummbers.

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Pomo
Pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted March 20, 2007 11:20 AM

Yeah sure I buy some creatures first, because they're better for the money - my point was simply that your decision to buy them isn't evidence in itself - you've already considered the relevant evidence in making that decision
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