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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Renegades Review+Tactics
Thread: Renegades Review+Tactics This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted April 06, 2007 11:13 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 18:35, 09 Apr 2007.

Renegades Review+Tactics

Eventhough renegade troops are a bit overpowered, and clearly stronger than the regular Haven troops, I think it can be very interesting to review them, to find new tactics for them and to compare them to the regular upgraded Haven troops.
I'll gather here everything I know about them, mostly from expirence in the game.

Enforcer:
The only bad thing in upgrading the Peasant into Conscript is that the ability 'Taxpayer' is gone (but they get a new ability, 'Bash'). 'Taxpayer' ability gives gold in every turn as the number of the creatures with it.
The Enforcer still has this ability, with the 'Bash', so you don't lose anything that the Peasant had.
The Enforcer has 2 attack (Conscript has only 1).
All the rest of the thing are the same, between the Enforcer to the Conscript.
Tactics: Put it as a guard of the shotters, in the tactics mode and attack offesive creatures that come to attack your shooters.
Useful tip: Gain 'Luck' skill, and chose the ability 'Soldier Luck'. It will make the ability 'Bash' to work much more often.


Crossbowman:
The status of the Crossbowman is similar to the status of the Marksman. There's only one difference of +1 attack to the Crossbowman, and +2 shots to the Marksman.
The main difference is the ability 'No Range Penalty' what means that there aren't broken arrows-every shot does full damage. Since the Crossbowman does huge damage (comparing to other 2nd level creatures) this ability does him extremely strong and useful creature, even overpowered.
This ability much better in this case than the ability 'Percise Shot', of the Marksman, that does that if the enemy is 3 tiles away or closer, shots are stronger, because the defence isn't be considered.
Tactics: Defend the Crossbowman well. You can use the Sqare (Vindicator), Conscript (Enforcer) and the Inquisitor (Zealot).
Remember that the damage is the same, even when you shot on very close creature.
Tips: 'Divine Strengh' is very useful for the Crossbowman.
Gain 'Attack' skill. The ability 'Archery' increases the power of the Crossbowman a lot.


Vindicator:
The Vindicator is the offensive version of the Squire.
Instead of the ability 'Shield Allies' (make close allies to suffer only 50% damage from shots) it has the ability 'Cleave', which gives him double attack (like the Minotaur Guard's) if he kills one creature or more in his first attack. This ability is extremely strong.
It's still has the Footman's ability 'Large Shield', what mean he suffers only 50% damage from shots.
Squire's attack is 5 and the defence is 9, while the Vindicator's attack and defence are 8.
All the rest of the status is similar.
Tactics: In the tatics mode, locate the Vindicator as you locate the Squire, like a tank creature that protects the shotters. Locate other creatures near it. He will protect them from attacks, until his turn comes. Till than, enemy creatures usually get closer, coming to attack the creatures you put near the Vindicator. The Vindicator will be able to attack, and will help, as an offensive unit and as a protector.


Battle Griffin:
Instead of the great 'Battle Dive' ability, the Battle Griffin has the ability 'Battle Frenzy'-Every retaliation is 1.5 times stronger than the previous one. It seems like this ability was built for working together Unliminted Retaliation.
Anyway, 'Battle Dive' ability is more useful. Its loss here is huge. That's the thing that does Imperial Griffin better than Battle Griffin.
Imperial Griffin has 9 attack and 8 defence, while Battle Griffin has 6 attack and 12 defence.
The Battle Griffin isn't immune to 'Blind' spell, like the Griffin and the Imperial Griffin are. Sadly, this is a good ability, and too bad that it's gone.
Eventhough, the Battle Griffin has 35 HP, 5 HP more than the Imperial Griffin.
Tip: Gain 'Attack' skill and the ability 'Tactics'. The Battle Griffin (like the other kinds of Griffins) has 15 initiative and 7 speed. He usually the first to play in the comabat. With 'Tactics' ability, he's able to reach to large enemies in one turn, and this early turn isn't wasted.


Zealot:
The difference between the Zealot of the Inquisitor is mainly the spells.
Instead of the 'Haste' and 'Divine Strengh' spells of the Inquisitor, the Zealot has 'Blindness', on advanced level.
The Zealot has 15 mana, while the Inquisitor has only 12.
What means that once per a battle, the Zealot can blind creature for 3 turns. Very powerful ability, even overpowered.
Inquisitor has 16 attack and defence, while the Zealot has 20 attack and 14 defence, and the Zealot has only 5 shots (7 for the Inquisitor). All the rest of the things are the same. Both of them has 'No Melee Penalty'.
Tactics: First of all, cast 'Blindness' spell on the strongest creature on the battlefield, or on the one that most dangerous for your army. In this way, the creature won't be able to interrupt you while your army is attacking the enemy. After it, use the Zealot as a regular shooter.
It's always good to separate your Zealots into few stacks, so they will be able to cast 'Blindness' spell.
Tip: Try to get the ability 'Refined Mana' (of Light Magic skill). If you get it, you will use only half of the mana when you cast spells, and you will be able to cast 'Blindness' spell three times per a combat.


Champion:
Instead of the not-very-useful 'Lay Hands' ability, the Champion gets the ability 'Champion Charge'. It's quite similar to the the 'Fire Breath' ability, but does only 50% to the creature behind the attacked creature, and works only if the Champion walked 2 tiles or more to reach to the attacked creature.
As I said, the Champion does more damage than the Paladin. The Champions' damage is 20-35 and the Paladin's is 20-30.
The Champion has less defence than the Paladin. Paladin: 24, Champion: 20.
Both of them has the great 'Jousting' ability, that adds +5% damage per each tile the Paladin/Champion went, to reach to the attacked creature.
Tactics: In the tactics mode, locate it in the middle-side, and check that there aren't obstacles on its way. Than, attack creature, and try to attack one that there's another one behind it, so you will be able to attack them both. Every time you attack, try to do it after going 2 tiles (or more) so you will be able to attack also creatures behind the attacked ones.
Tip: Gain the ability 'Tactics' (of 'Attack' skill). If you put the Champion in the third row, it will be easier for you to use the Champion Charge.


Fallen Angel:
There are two main changes between the Archangel and the Fallen Angel: Damage and abilities.
The Archangel has 50-50 damage. It's not affected by things like 'Divine Strengh' or 'Weakness' spells.
The fallen Angel has 25-75 damage. The average damage is basiclt the same, but the Fallen Angel is affected of many effects and spells that the Archangel isn't, for good and bad.
Archangel has 31 attack and defence, and Fallen Angel has 35 attack and 25 defence.
The main question is what better: the ability 'Resurrect Allies' or 'Life Drain'.
Well, you can resurrect allies once per a battle. It might help a lot, but you can use it only once.
The ability 'Life Drain' is endless. The Fallen Angel can uses it over and over. It's more useful.
After the Fallen Angel is attacked, he can restore the lose units in the retiliate. On hard battle, that seems to be lost, all what it has to do is to attack weak creature, and the Fallen Angel can be strong as it was in the beginning.
That's what makes the 'Life Drain' to storger than 'Resurrect Allies', the amount of times that it can be used.
Tactics: Always attack it your turn. Even if you are weak and many units were lost. They can be restored by the 'Life Drain' ability. When the stack lost many units, attack weak creatures or shooters (that don't have the ability 'No melee Penalty') and restore the lost units.
Tip: Use the spell 'Divine Strengh'. Raising the minimum damage of the Fallen Angel (which is very low) is great. The spell is perfect with Expert Light Magic skill-the damage of the Fallen Angel will be 75-75. You better do it fast, becuase the enemy might cast the 'Weakness' spell.


Summary:
When you play with the Renegades, you better have:
-'Attack' skill
-'Tactics' ability (of 'Attack' skill)
-'Archery' ability (of 'Attack' skill)
-'Luck' skill
-'Soldier Luck' ability (of 'Attack' skill)
-'Light Magic' skill
-'Master of Blessings' ability (of 'Light Magic' skill)
-'Refind Mana' (of 'Light Magic' skill)
-'Divine Strengh' spell or 'Mass Divine Strengh' spell.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 07, 2007 12:10 AM
Edited by Elvin at 00:12, 07 Apr 2007.

Good work GenieLord! Pretty accurate analysis.

At first glance we can understand that the renegades are an offensive-minded version of haven as reflected in their stats and abilities. Also they have an affinity for dark as seen in their 'spiritual' units. That means that if you go light you have some dark assistance from your troops and if you go dark you can cause more havoc

As for tactics it's pretty much an all-out assault. Nothing keeps the vindicators back now that they can take part in the battle and the griffins are forced to go melee as well. The champions will try to score a double hit and the angels will attack as well leaving the crossbowmen for ranged and the zealots for blinding. That's an awesome combo with leadership, mass haste and luck to increase their damage output even more.

The only units I do not consider imba are the griffins and vindicators here though they are not too bad off-the vindicator still has big shield! I just might prefer the haven version for them in some cases but if you check renegades vs haven in general there is no real contest imo. Which makes me wonder about the alternative upgrades system that is about to come...Will that be the renegades for haven? If so shouldn't they be toned down?

About the new spells and especially vampirism...Suppose the paladins would get more drain due to jousting. But does it affect the champion charge that hits two units?

About the Fallen angels I am also in favour of life drain. The reason is the max damage you can obtain with divine strength, the fact that they are lvl 7 and easily kill though are hard to kill plus their increased attack compared to the archangel. Even if you try to steal the retaliation they'll drain...In a lowly unit as the vampire it doesn't seem much but in a poweful unit(from a might faction no less) life drain simply shines.

I guess that's pretty much it, little else to say in the matter.
____________
You are truly a monster, Blizz. Truly
-Gnomes2169

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted April 07, 2007 12:39 AM

Quote:
Good work GenieLord! Pretty accurate analysis.

Thank you.

Quote:
At first glance we can understand that the renegades are an offensive-minded version of haven as reflected in their stats and abilities.

I agree.

Quote:
Also they have an affinity for dark as seen in their 'spiritual' units. That means that if you go light you have some dark assistance from your troops and if you go dark you can cause more havoc

I don't think so.
It seems like Haven was built for Light Magic. It works much better with it. For example, the Fallen Angel was built for the Divine Strengh.
Anyway, there's always the option of going with Dark Magic. Just semms to be a bit... Unsuitable. Not many things in the Haven's troops fit with that.

Quote:
As for tactics it's pretty much an all-out assault. Nothing keeps the vindicators back now that they can take part in the battle and the griffins are forced to go melee as well. The champions will try to score a double hit and the angels will attack as well leaving the crossbowmen for ranged and the zealots for blinding. That's an awesome combo with leadership, mass haste and luck to increase their damage output even more.

Agree.

Quote:
The only units I do not consider imba are the griffins and vindicators here though they are not too bad off-the vindicator still has big shield! I just might prefer the haven version for them in some cases but if you check renegades vs haven in general there is no real contest imo. Which makes me wonder about the alternative upgrades system that is about to come...Will that be the renegades for haven? If so shouldn't they be toned down?

Agree. And I don't think that they will be alternative upgrade. They are too powerful, and they should stay as neutral special version of Haven.

Quote:
About the new spells and especially vampirism...Suppose the paladins would get more drain due to jousting. But does it affect the champion charge that hits two units?

I'll check that.

Quote:
About the Fallen angels I am also in favour of life drain. The reason is the max damage you can obtain with divine strength, the fact that they are lvl 7 and easily kill though are hard to kill plus their increased attack compared to the archangel. Even if you try to steal the retaliation they'll drain...In a lowly unit as the vampire it doesn't seem much but in a poweful unit(from a might faction no less) life drain simply shines.

Again, I agree.
____________

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 07, 2007 02:02 AM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 02:04, 07 Apr 2007.

I think they may be the upgrade, why not?. Its just a matter of lowering some stats, thats all.

lol ive just notice this on top of the screen: Get some Sleep feluniozbunio!!

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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted April 07, 2007 04:47 AM

With the expansion in mind, supposing it was like heroes iv, and you could pick either the normal unit OR the renegade unit for each tier, what would you choose?

It looks like all renegade units except for the imperial griffin and maybe the squire.
____________
Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.

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kirnon_bhale
kirnon_bhale

Tavern Dweller
posted April 07, 2007 10:21 AM

True, but if the choice is like that of Heroes IV then I would not be surprised if the Alternates cost more to build and recruit thus they would balance it that way or even lower the growth (although I doubt that.)

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 07, 2007 10:25 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:28, 07 Apr 2007.

Champions have jousting!! It's just not shown on their charts.


Same for vindicators & Big shield!!!

correct it please.


Besides, lay hands is not "not very useful", it's GREAT.. the only thing that dispels frenzy in the game, I think (and a life saver if you're ot of cleansing or mana against puppet master..). I'm surprised you rate it low. I'd rather think twice before giving such unreasonable mark

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted April 07, 2007 11:04 AM

Quote:
Champions have jousting!! It's just not shown on their charts.

Doesn't appear in my game.

Quote:
Same for vindicators & Big shield!!!

I know that, just forgot to mention.

Quote:
Besides, lay hands is not "not very useful", it's GREAT.. the only thing that dispels frenzy in the game, I think (and a life saver if you're ot of cleansing or mana against puppet master..). I'm surprised you rate it low. I'd rather think twice before giving such unreasonable mark

"Not very useful" means that it's not used a lot.

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted April 07, 2007 11:45 AM

Quote:
it has the ability 'Cleave', which gives him double attack (like the Minotaur Guard's) if he kills one creature or more in his first attack. This ability is extremely strong.


it is not extremally strong. it has no sense to make average - offensive creature from extremally defensive

btw this is square



and this is squire



about champions: dont make me weak, GL... I know it is not shown in right-click table but... have you ever attacked with them?


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 07, 2007 11:49 AM

Quote:
Quote:
About the new spells and especially vampirism...Suppose the paladins would get more drain due to jousting. But does it affect the champion charge that hits two units?

I'll check that.

With the newfound powers of your avatar?
Hmm is it one of the spells you can get to work?


Quote:
Champions have jousting!!


____________
You are truly a monster, Blizz. Truly
-Gnomes2169

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted April 07, 2007 11:57 AM

Quote:
With the newfound powers of your avatar?
Hmm is it one of the spells you can get to work?


he can mod a seraph and put him fire breath, it is easy to improve... but I am not sure he was thinking exacly about it


Quote:
Champions have jousting!!



Elvin, you too? Do not make it to me!

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 07, 2007 12:05 PM

Hey I haven't seen many of them as neutrals while playing and I missed it when I played the campaign some months ago!
*sigh* Ok I apologize, that won't happen again!
____________
You are truly a monster, Blizz. Truly
-Gnomes2169

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 07, 2007 12:56 PM

yes, champions do have jousting, that makes them even more scary than paladins.. not onlyjousting, but breath attack! that means 2 units killed per turn. Duh.

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted April 07, 2007 12:59 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 12:59, 07 Apr 2007.

Quote:
yes, champions do have jousting, that makes them even more scary than paladins.. not onlyjousting, but breath attack! that means 2 units killed per turn. Duh.


Yes, Radar proved that. I have already fixed the mistake.

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 07, 2007 01:20 PM

Quote:
yes, champions do have jousting, that makes them even more scary than paladins.. not onlyjousting, but breath attack! that means 2 units killed per turn. Duh.


In this case I guess there will be need to enlarge battlefield to be able to separate your stacks

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted April 07, 2007 01:59 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 14:00, 07 Apr 2007.

Quote:
Quote:
yes, champions do have jousting, that makes them even more scary than paladins.. not onlyjousting, but breath attack! that means 2 units killed per turn. Duh.


In this case I guess there will be need to enlarge battlefield to be able to separate your stacks


You remind me to add a simple tactic:
Separating your Zealots into few stacks, so they will be able to blind more creatures.

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 07, 2007 02:27 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 14:29, 07 Apr 2007.

Quote:
You remind me to add a simple tactic:
Separating your Zealots into few stacks, so they will be able to blind more creatures.


Of course . This is onlz reason whz it might be unbalanced. Having one onlz creature with such spell would be good but not overpowered but having 3 stacks of those may be too much, im not sure though.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 07, 2007 03:16 PM

even 1 stack with blind is overpowered.. period

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted April 07, 2007 03:56 PM

With 2 or three you can blind all the strong creatures, kill the weaker ones, and then kill the strong ones, one by one.
Anyway, I think that giving creature this kind of spell is overpowered anyway.

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VokialBG
VokialBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted April 08, 2007 12:08 PM
Edited by VokialBG at 12:09, 08 Apr 2007.

Good work GLord, interesting and tidy.

Only 1 important note, the Large Shield ability is mistake. The Vindicator hasn't it. I have checked the hard coded codes in Heroes 5, it's a bug. You can see that it's written, but the creature hasn't it...
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