|
| Thread: The Best Creature with no Enemy Retaliation in HoMM5 - Round 4 |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
posted April 16, 2007 02:47 PM |
|
|
Maybe you will be unlucky not to build them in week 2/3 but to skip them completely is a severe tactical error. Maybe in small games where you can rush with magic.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 02:50 PM |
|
|
It's not an error, you don't have enough many on everything anyway. If you throw artifact merchant and couple artifacts you are drained good. Ive played vs few top academy players and none of them built rakashas.
____________
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 03:26 PM |
|
|
Just because you can't afford them for "artifact" reasons doesn't mean they are weaker than any other creature. If you prefer arties then that's your decision, but that's no way of rating the Raksasha.
However in my opinion No Enemy Retaliation creatures are good if they use that ability, which is having a good damage potential and perhaps poor survivability. The ability enlarges the survivability while it should gain a decent amount of damage to make it worthwile. So I'll discuss them invidiually (however like executor said, I describe only creatures with No Enemy Retaliation ability, not Squires, etc).
Blood Fury: For the reason posted above, this is an extremely good creature which uses the No Enemy Retaliation to it's full potential. High damage with high initiative, and Strike and Return ensure the survivability will go much higher than a Blood Maiden, and this means a very good effect of the No enemy retaliation ability. This is one of the best examples, along with the Sprite and Cerberi, that are for me using that particular ability to it's full potential. Furies are much more powerful than some people realize. The fact that you compare 100 Blood Furies against a much more expensive stack is disturbing for me. You realize that you get for what you pay. So personally I wouldn't expect more from the tiny gold this creature costs since it's only a tier 2.
Sprite: Also one of the best creatures that use the No enemy retaliation to full potential. The sprite is incredibly fragile, and a retaliation might be deadly, not because it destroyes the whole stack, but rather because it will severly weaken it's damage potential, since there will be less sprites in the stack after a retaliation and given their poor survivability this will most likely be devastating to their potential. The fact that they have 14 initiative, and a multi-target hit also improves the concept of using the No enemy retaliation with maximum output. Why? Because no matter how the big the initiative is, without that ability it will still suffer a retaliation from the enemy and as explained above it will cause it to lose it's damage. Like I said it's one of the best uses of the No enemy retaliation ability, in my opinion. And it is also extremely cheap (not to mention it's flying ability, high speed AND casting spells like Cleansing)
Cerberus: Very good creature as well with that ability. The Hell Hound was lacking this ability and made it somewhat below it's meant potential. Except for the Sprite's flying ability and caster, this is remarkably similar in other areas, so I won't go into details. However it is much more durable (which is to be expected from a much more intensive gold cost), and it really blasts through enemies mainly because of the No enemy retaliation ability -- in this way you can be assured the enemy will lose at least a few turns to decimate your Cerberi, since they simply won't die from non-existing retaliations. Truly a very good example of another creature using that ability to it's fullness.
Deep Hydra: I really don't think this is a good creature for that ability. It is nice to have it around yes, but it doesn't use full potential of it, or at least make it decent. What makes Hydras tough is the large amount of hit points and offensive capability (because of the Six-Headed attack). You can find a more detailed explanation at the Best Tank Creature thread.
Vampire Lord: Even without it's high initiative or damage, the Vampire Lord still has a nice place for that ability. Why? Because it needs to restore it's health by regenerating, and retaliations would simply halt this process. Furthermore it suffers from a lack of good stats (for it's price obviously), so any abilities are welcome to make it decent. Doesn't shine in many aspects though, but can be really useful, but that's mainly because of it's regeneration ability, which combined with the No Enemy retaliation, it is buffed up a bit. Though it's damage is low, and so directly implying, is the regeneration power. It's a mediocre example of No Enemy Retaliation usage.
Rakshasa Raja: Despite what others said (and not because of their affordment), Rakshasa's are not very good examples of that ability. For me, they have extremely high hit points, and this simply means the ability will boost that up even more, while the true usage of the ability lies in dealing damage quickly without suffering losses. The initiative is a bit low, but that is more than compensated by the Dash ability. Which would make it an above-average creature unless the price (yes the creature's gold price, not the dwelling cost!) was not that high (compared to the others mentioned above). So I rate it as a mediocre usage of No enemy Retaliation ability, though I must admit, the Rakshasa serves a good purpose of a half-tank half-offensive unit. 
I'd vote between Blood Furies, Sprites or Cerberi.. hmm which one?
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 03:34 PM |
|
|
Don't worry, if it was good enough I'm sure people would be using them, simple.
____________
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 03:44 PM |
|
|
That's not the problem.
People usually want to see lots of big numbers, etc.. they just don't realize how they came there. When they run out of gold they don't even care what they bought up to that point (calculate before you are drained, etc). They base their opinions on the growth not the gold.
Personally I take my long turns by analyzing, not by abusing neutrals, and see which combination has the greatest chance to win. I don't usually like to say "well, it was luck's fault" (btw luck means any random thing, not the skill). I analyze and increase my chances (if I lose so be it, i'm not perfect and this game is far from fair).
If people for example, have a stack with 1 familiar and attack (doing 1 damage to a Titan) the damage will be MUCH MORE than the familiar would be doing with it's cost. However that goes unnoticed by quickly by many "people" so to speak. If you do the math you'll see it's way better than an equivalent in gold or whatever. Since money is a concern, it would be wise to think what really drained you out of it.
ps: same as in starcraft when I played with my friends some years ago, they usually got only powerful creatures because they had the 'greatest visual impact' which is simply a psychological thing and won't increase your chances usually. And I always beat them up with more 'low-level' creatures so to speak, as I did realize they can in some situations do more damage for their cost. Or whatever similar.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 04:02 PM |
|
|
I'm not a particularily big fan of no retaliation in this part of homm; In the lategame battles, the damage is so big that you don't need to fear the retaliation, since the surviving 20-30% of the creatures won't do much damage anyway. It's not h3, and especially not WoG where retaliating hell hydras could kill your whole army :-X
Anyways, the cerberi seem the best here from tactical point of view; while they are very poor on their own, the first turn attack they are likely to perform (triple headed and possibly lucky) often does severe damage. And raksashas are not impossible to get, neither bad; It's just that academy players don't need them to win. Other creatures and their spells are more than enough.
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 04:04 PM |
|
|
You are absolutely right. And i am saying that all those good academy players (and myself) don't but rakashas for a reason, the reason is obvious its not THAT good unit. Im not saying they are bad or something , im just saying they are not the best among those that are mentioned here(that is my opinion).
____________
|
|
executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 04:31 PM |
|
Edited by executor at 16:34, 16 Apr 2007.
|
Quote:
Wise post, executor..
Thank you .
 StarCraft content:
Quote:
ps: same as in starcraft when I played with my friends some years ago, they usually got only powerful creatures because they had the 'greatest visual impact' which is simply a psychological thing and won't increase your chances usually. And I always beat them up with more 'low-level' creatures so to speak, as I did realize they can in some situations do more damage for their cost. Or whatever similar.
Yes, that's fully true. Psi-wise the best units were hydralisks .
Edit(@Doomforge):
Yes, cerberi can deal ridiculous damage, especially with demonlords superb att, even rivaling top tiers.
____________
Understanding is a three-edged sword.
|
|
TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 05:12 PM |
|
|
I don't have time for a full analisys ... so I will just point out the important :
1. Blood Fury makes no-enemy-retaliation hit another dimension , making it godly ! In short games it is absolutely the best.
2. The Cerberus is another great no-enemy-retal , unit , and it is probably the best in medium -> long games, and also very effective in short games.
3. The Raska ... It is the obviously the most powerfull creature with no -enemy-retaliation, I can't agree with those that say it doesn't trully need this ability, its sub-average defense for its level , makes this ability really usefull.
This creature is awesome but so hard to get unfortunately  ... I see huge potential in this creature if you can get it to live intact for the first turn. Initiative + speed + attack mini-arti + Dash + Mass Haste would make so deadly that probably nothing could stand them.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted April 16, 2007 05:26 PM |
|
|
Yes the Rakshasa needs the ability, but not as much as a Sprite -- imagine pixies torn apart by retaliations with their poor survivability, and the enemy didn't even lose a turn to whack them! That's truly effective usage of this ability 
|
|
ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
|
|
posted April 17, 2007 11:23 AM |
|
|
A new creature analysis now it's my turn:
I won't include the creatures that don't have the "No Enemy Retaliation" ability in my comments btw (except the Griffin)
I will comment on these creatures from two different views: who needs this ability the most and who's the strongest creature for its respective level (sorry, it is simply unfair to compare Blood Furies with Rakshasas)
Who benefits most from the "No Enemy Retaliation" ability?
Blood Fury - this one is obviously in dire need of this ability, because it has very low survivability and high initiative. Just look at what happens with Blood Maidens: lacking the ability, they end up killed in the first retaliation of the enemy. Not to mention the ability + "Strike and Return" is a great advantage to creeping.
Sprite - the same with the Blood Fury, the Sprite is simply too fragile (negative survivability). Without this ability you would even consider not attacking the enemy so that you won't lose all the sprites in the retaliation process, though that makes the Sprites useless, right?
Cerberus - the same with the above, but this one being a level 3 has a slightly better survivability. Like the Blood Fury, the No Enemy Retaliation ability is only available to the upgraded unit, so it's a must to upgrade these creatures!
Imperial Griffin - I suppose it's Battle Dive for this one, eh? Well, personally, I don't find the No Retaliation for the Griffins extremely important, as they are not very fragile and also, the Battle Dive deals double damage but is twice as slower, meaning only one retaliation per two strikes or such. So, the no retaliation part of the Griffin is not very important IMO, but a nice strength for this creature.
Deep Hydra - Contrary to the Blood Fury, this one is a tank, slow and sturdy. That means it doesn't need the No Enemy Retaliation that much, because well, the retaliation won't be devastating thanks to the Hydra's very high HP. I mean, it's a tank, and that what tanks are used for: to absorb damage. Also, the lack of speed means the Hydra won't attack much, so it won't use the ability very often. However, I'm not saying this ability is a waste, it is certanly welcome (saves you time for your hero to finish the enemy with some 2k damage destructive spells ) but it would be better for other creatures, say the Black Dragon. Anyway, I'm not saying it should be like that, so that Dungeon would be the perfect faction and thus overpowered
Vampire Lord - The Vampire is clearly in need of this ability, but not as much as a Blood Fury. That's because 1) it doesn't have such a low survivability, 2) not such a high initiative (doesn't use the ability as often as the Blood Fury) and 3) it has Life Drain to increase its survivability even more. Nevertheless, the ability is very useful for this creature, because otherwise Necro would lack completely of it.
Rakshasa Raja - Same as the Hydra, it is slow and has good amount of HP for its tier. Doesn't benefit very much from the No Enemy Retaliation but it is a nice bonus Oh yeah, there's also Dash to increase the initiative
Who's the strongest creature for the respective level?
Blood Fury - Personally, I find Furies extremely strong for their level. They're one of the strongest level 2 creatures, along with the Marksmen. Great at creeping and decent damage dealers for their level (contrary to those tanks - Horned Demons and Zombies - which sometimes do 0 damage ). With the initiative included, the Marksmen deals the same damage as the Blood Fury, but it also has Range Penalty, while the Fury with its high speed and Strike and Return and No Retaliation makes it a shooter with no melee and range penalty. And the marksmen being in a might town does not mean it is stronger, because I could as well said Furies + 2k Implosion
Sprite - These are one of the strongest tier 1 creatures IMO, right after the Familiar and maybe the Gremlin (now that the skellies are not in the 1st place). Although they lack survivability, the high initiative and speed and the good damage + the ability to hit more than one creature makes it a deadly level 1 unit. The Cleansing spell is a nice addition (you can cast it with 1 Sprite and the effect will be the same), but the Wasp Swarm spell is a joke (maybe only to destroy Phantom Forces - never tried it, don't know if it works)... if only it reduced a little ATB (like 0.1)
Cerberus - Great and fast creature. Similar to the Sprite, this one has high initiative and speed and can hit multiple opponents in one blow, but it lacks survivability. Well, it is increased than the Sprite's, but that's also because it is level 3. This creature is especially nasty when Luck and/or HellFire triggers on the attack (along with Demon Lord's high Attack)
Imperial Griffin - One of the best level 4 creatures (along with the Grim Raider with its Rider Charge ability and maybe the Druid). Clearly, it would not have the same rank if the Battle Dive ability was lacking. This ability makes the Griffin a very annoying opponent because it either prevents all your shooters from shooting (you have to move them), or it deals double damage to them. However, being a fast creature, there are situations when the Griffin's turn will be two times before one of your unit's, and that's when the Battle Dive hit is inevitable (especially now that they can get morale - which is a bad thing IMO)
Deep Hydra - As I described in "The Best Tank Creature", the Hydra is a more offensive oriented tank because of its ability to hit all the creatures around. The No Retaliation is nice addition which makes it more durable, along with the Regeneration ability. The extremely high hit points are also a good strength of this creature, but it lacks speed. Contrary to the Lich, this creature benefits from the Large Creature ability because it will help it guard better other units (and that's what tanks are supposed to do)
Vampire Lord - The Vampire is a great creature for the Necro army. It is fast (not extremely fast), a decent damage dealer and has average HP, but it is the abilities that improve it considerably: Life Drain helps it recover from attacks (better than Hydra's Regeneration of course); No Enemy Retaliation, again, helps it last longer and Teleport, well, it's nice to have such an ability, especially when you're siegeing an enemy castle.
Rakshasa Raja - More of a tank, this creature has high HP and low initiative. But, contrary to a real tank (the Treant), it has very high damage. The No Enemy Retaliation ability is a nice addition, although it would be better for fast and not so sturdy units. But it has a way to improve its initiative: the Dash ability. While it sounds really awesome (and sometimes, not against very fast opponents, it really IS), the first turn is of an initiative of 8 (slow) and then you waste the turn to use the Dash ability. This means your first turn will be delayed and will be a little too slow, but then what fast killing machines these creatures become!
Anyway, I really don't know what to vote this time, and that's mainly because I don't know whether to vote for the first or second approach.
|
|
emilsn
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted April 17, 2007 04:23 PM |
|
|
I always enjoy this: Good stack of Berzerkers, GREAT LUCK, Plenty of att. from hero, Good light magic buff and good rune of berzerking or something else fine and then BAMM JAAM FLAM BOOM! ZOOM GOOM ROOM (weird noice  ) A stack is dead... (I Know im a fortress fan i defend them, Yes indeed ) Not that guy, then it must be some ... Raja or griffin....
I still voted Berzerker, although that dream thing up there is way out, sorry.
____________
Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
|
|
sdfx
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 17, 2007 07:47 PM |
|
|
If we assume that nightmares are also no retal unit, then who is the real winner?
____________
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted April 17, 2007 07:56 PM |
|
Edited by Elvin at 19:59, 17 Apr 2007.
|
This is getting out of hand! What of the silver unicorns!!! And the ghosts? NOOOO!
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
|
|
posted April 17, 2007 08:32 PM |
|
|
WoW really great debate we have here, actually this is one of the most interesting rounds till now
____________
|
|
radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
|
|
posted April 17, 2007 08:38 PM |
|
|
I really hate when spirite is 1st lvl mine guardian  then wasp swarm makes hurly-burly
|
|
Lesij
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 19, 2007 07:02 PM |
|
|
|
I've voted 4 Raja, 'cuz he can use Dash and have 16 initiative 4 3 rounds. That's great!
|
|
MornVatreniVuk
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted September 06, 2007 02:15 PM |
|
|
Cerberi, but only as an early strikeforce*.
*cannon fodder
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted September 18, 2007 07:28 AM |
|
|
To me it is not as easy as which is strongest and weakest. It is how they fit and help the faction they work with also. So to fully understand their strength I am going to try (note : Try. I am not the best communicator sometimes) to annalyze both aspects.
Blood Fury - Alone : Decent init and speed, but prime targets for ranged units. Non-range and flyers have a hard time against them if below 4th level (obvious exception is other non-retaliation units). Makes them tough for their tier. With their faction they become much more dangerous. Target them and the rest of the faction gets a free pass, don't and they will tear you up. Magic will bypass that, but only so much. I would definately put them as one of the premier non-retaliation units.
Sprite - Early game they are decent alone. Fast, casters, and can be a threat to some 3rd tier creatures. Very weak, but make up for it in high numbers. Sadly they add little to their faction, except for to make enemies waste a ranged attack or two against them. Not totally worthless, but definately on the low end of the spectrum in my opinon.
Cerberus - Can be pretty sturdy, have decent init and speed, and can hit multiple units. Not much to dislike about this unit. It can be very useful to its faction also, and it is not as big a target as furies, because other things in it's faction can be more dangerous. I would place them just under furies, however, but not by much.
Imperial Griffin - Ok while the other units are at the mercy of ranged, the griffin has a ace card. It can dive bomb, making it a non-target, and get it right next to the ranged unit if nothing else. Its pretty sturdy, nice init and speed (with dive bomb however speed is not much of an issue). Most of the time, however, they are removed as quickly as possible from the equation by the enemy. Still, like the furries if you are targeting them, the other units get a free pass. Now for their faction they add a lot of options, especially against ranged units. Hold your ranged units where they are and damage the enemy (while getting dive bombed) or move the unit and not get an attack..not a great choice. I would put the griffin as the best of the no-retalition for that alone. If they can team up with a more robust (ie more health) unit against a single enemy (even tier 7's) except maybe hydra's they become even more of an asset (the tough one takes the damage for them).
Deep Hydra - With TA, they are better then even griffs, without it, they are pretty much just targets imo. Sure they are tough, but they are so slow when compaired to the others that they really don't contend. Now with the faction they move up a notch, and with TA and their faction they become down right scary. Only downside is expense of buildings and units. Too many requirements to really be a contender. Final verdict..on a scale of 1-10 it is a 4.
Vampire Lord - This one is tricky. Like the regen, and no-retalitate deffinately helps there, but it has lost a lot from previous versions of itself. Doesn't really add that much to it's faction either. Low on my list, maybe even lower then Sprites. However, if you can get enough of them, they become a force to be reconed with.
Rakshasa Raja - Alone : Tough, with dash can be fast, but the low defense of thier hero really hurts them. Against most of the other non-retalition they would be hard to take down, however. Couple of mass buffs, and with the right mini-arts, they can be downright terrifing. With their faction they give a bit of needed offensive might, but the requirements are prohibitive. All in all this one is situational. Right buffs, and mini-arts they are top of the list, if not they are near the bottom. Hard call on these.
____________
Message received.
|
|
kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
|
|
posted September 18, 2007 11:28 AM |
|
|
I find this ability essential for cerberi and blood furies, it is usefull to a lesser extent on the tanky rajas that could well survive without it.
|
| |
|
|
