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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Protections for our Schools
Thread: Protections for our Schools [ This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 (4) 5 ]
kookastar
kookastar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted April 21, 2007 08:20 AM
Edited by kookastar at 08:22, 21 Apr 2007.

Quote:
One could also argue that if more of the students had guns, someone would have stopped this guy.

In the US, individuals with guns prevent an estimated 800,000-1,200,000 crimes a year.




yeah, not a bad arguement, however I remember hearing the number of deaths in the US caused by guns each year - I need to do some research but it was alot.

Why do you think it is necessary to have this as part of your constitution?  A country that doesn't want others to hold nuclear weapons in self defence...

It is a tough question...

For me, this thread though is about mental health - the guy lost it obviously, most people don't feel they need to mass murder...  Should more be done to help people {kids} deal with depression and stress?
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Binabik
Binabik


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Legendary Hero
posted April 21, 2007 10:09 AM

One problem with the mental health issue is when and under what circumstances do you force someone into treatment against their will?  To my knowledge only a court order can involuntarily institutionalize someone.  Apparently there was an effort made to get this guy into voluntary treatment, but he didn't go.

I imagine any judge would be reluctant to institutionalize someone unless there was good evidence that he/she was a threat against himself or others.  I haven't kept up with the details of this case, but I'm not sure there was enough evidence against this guy to force treatment.  Remember hindsight.  There are probably hundreds of reporters and police investigating this guy.  we have the advantage of viewing the results of all this investigation in totality.  But would there have been enough evidence beforehand for a judge to take away this guy's freedom?

When these things happen, the issue of gun control always comes up.  The problem with all the focus on gun control is that it distracts from the underlying issue.  Gun control is a feel-good quick fix.  Guns are something to blame.  We all like to point our finger and say "that's the problem".  These things are never that simple.

Guns answer the question of how, but not the question of why.  And I think the real question isn't really why this particular guy did this.  The much more important question is why does this happen at all in our society?  Why does it happen on a regular basis and why is it increasing in frequency?  It's already been mentioned that guns have always been around, but mass school shootings didn't happen in the past.  So What has changed?

The prevalence of guns is one scapegoat.  Video games is another.  What about the increasing divorce rate and one parent families?  What about both parents working with a lack of one-on-one time with their children?  What about the increase in pressure and stress from society for academic success at higher and higher levels?  What about violence on TV?  What about computers and the associated lack of exercise to burn off stress?

It just seems that for a variety of reason people are uptight these days.  We talk about mental illness.  In this case the guy seems to have had some type of mental problems.  But it just seems like there's something more.  It seems like these schools shootings are done out pure anger, pure uncontrolled rage.  Why so much anger?  And why is it uncontrolled to the point of mass shootings?  Is there more anger than there used to be?  Or is the anger just uncontrolled?  Has mass murder become the modern expression to show deep anger and hatred?

Complex questions, but even so, one thing keeps coming to mind.  Something that I've thought about for a long time.  Maybe it's an age thing because I grew up in a different society and lifestyle.  We've become a sit-on-our-ass society.  The human body and human mind are not designed for sitting around on our asses like we do in modern society.  Instead of expending energy through activity, it's directed inwardly.  The world we live in is becoming more and more stressful, yet we spend less and less time in activities that relieve stress.

It's very late at night and I don't have an ending, so I'll just stop.  Hopefully I got a point across (unless I'm even more asleep than I think)


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HoMaM
HoMaM


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Sailor of the open seas
posted April 21, 2007 10:33 PM

All are starting from the family.To become a parent is much more complicated and difficult than we think.Where is the breeding of nowadays kids?
To everyone who saw the murderer on tv.Did u see how confident he was about his action.He was completely believing that he would do a great action.Why?He never taught what is good and what is bad.I blame his family for his action.
The responsibility of being a parent is a very big deal.It's something more than water the field.Have u ever concerned how much time does a parent spend with his kid?And if the kid isn't been taught the values,the ethics,to apart good from bad in his early years then the game is over.
In my opinion that's the main reason of such actions.In addition with tv-video games and others,we have this catastrophical result.

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Demon_Child
Demon_Child


Adventuring Hero
I'm a gift from the devil
posted April 22, 2007 01:34 AM

I totally agree with you HoMaM.  It's the main part of the parent....obviously they didn't pay enough attention to their child to kno that he would do sumthin like this.
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Aculias
Aculias


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Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted April 22, 2007 01:54 AM

BS.
You cant blame the parents for a persons mistakes.
Your in college you should know right from wrong.
You already lived some of your life on your own.
I known people who dont even basically have parents & thier making it ok.

We dont even know the reasons why people get murdered.
COuld be many reasons.
I doubt parents tell you to become Gothic too.
It's the pure Pressure & what you like.
Sure Parents can be a part of it.
Not all of it thats for sure.

Might as well blame the parents 100% for suicidal youngsters as well.
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HoMaM
HoMaM


Known Hero
Sailor of the open seas
posted April 22, 2007 03:43 AM

Quote:
BS.
You cant blame the parents for a persons mistakes.
Your in college you should know right from wrong.
You already lived some of your life on your own.
I known people who dont even basically have parents & thier making it ok.

We dont even know the reasons why people get murdered.
COuld be many reasons.


Might as well blame the parents 100% for suicidal youngsters as well.


BS to u Aculias.
That's not only my opinion.That's experts' opinion.We are our parents'mirror.We are what they made us to be.That's why i'm saying again that it's a big responsibility to become a parent.
I don't say that a murderer's parents wanted to make him murderer.But they did,without wanted to, subconciously.
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Colonel_here
Colonel_here


Adventuring Hero
Descendant of Ghengis Khan
posted April 22, 2007 05:18 AM

Parents are one of the most important factors in person's life. Depending on how much parenting did they do means how the kid will turn out.
I remember talking to a teacher who was creating a class from children for new experimental program whose goal was to prove that it is possible for kids to learn more complicated things at younger age.
I asked how she picked the kids?
She said the first test that she did was to talk to both parents and found out who they were and what role did they play in their child's development.
If the parent is active int he child's life than the child will be more open to the parents and the parents will know what exactly on their mind.
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


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Professional
posted April 22, 2007 05:27 AM

Quote:
There's nothing ridiculous about it.  I simply posted raw data, you can do with it what you want.  As far as the cause of the crimes, I assume some percentage of them had weapons involved.  Most were probably minor crimes.

Quote:
And you don't really think that pointing a gun at this mentally unstable, suicidal kid (who is armed with a rifle) was going to stop him.
No, he would have had to be shot.  Everyone complains about the police not being there and that's what they would have done.




The ridiculous thing is these people can go to a shop and ask for a gun which specialises in killing defenceless people from a distance and is in no way suitable for self defence, and the shopkeeper will have a few suggestions..

Quote:
One could also argue that if more of the students had guns, someone would have stopped this guy.

That actually makes me laugh lol.

Why don't we just give them all guns and say the last one standing gets his degree.
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william
william


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LummoxLewis
posted April 22, 2007 06:10 AM
Edited by william at 06:11, 22 Apr 2007.

Quote:

BS to u Aculias.
That's not only my opinion.That's experts' opinion.We are our parents'mirror.We are what they made us to be.That's why i'm saying again that it's a big responsibility to become a parent.
I don't say that a murderer's parents wanted to make him murderer.But they did,without wanted to, subconciously.


wth, sure we might be our parents mirror, but we are not them, we our ourselves and we get influenced by certain things.

For example, you said an example about a murderer, well I do not think that the parents influenced or wanted him to become one.

The kid might have had other things, like TV, friends etc etc.

I agree with Aculias here.
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Consis
Consis


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Of Ruby
posted April 22, 2007 12:46 PM
Edited by Consis at 12:47, 22 Apr 2007.

I Couldn't Agree More

Absolutely on the mark Colonel_Here.

Let me please ask those reading this to try and think of it like this:

It is fairly obvious and generally accepted that IF a parent is overbearing, abusive, mean-spirited, and ignorant (and the list goes on) to a child THEN that child is very likely to reflect the only treatment it has ever been shown in life. Is it not? You have discovered a parent that has practically and for all intensive purposes raised a child to be some sort of vicious pit fighter that tends to loathe humanity.

If that statement is true then the reverse must also be true.

IF a parent is kind, loving, gentle, good listener, involved with an open mind, carefully guiding and logical THEN the child might very well have these traits more prevalent than those described previously yes?

Now remind yourselves that patterns of behavior are not fixed. People can change but only if they truly wish it and only after they long remove themselves from the influence and control of those whom raised them. The change is possible at any time in the child's life, but I suspect it might be more possible at certain ages of brain development. I believe the actions of a parent are directly related to the future actions of their children.
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HoMaM
HoMaM


Known Hero
Sailor of the open seas
posted April 22, 2007 01:07 PM

quote]

wth, sure we might be our parents mirror, but we are not them, we our ourselves and we get influenced by certain things.

For example, you said an example about a murderer, well I do not think that the parents influenced or wanted him to become one.

The kid might have had other things, like TV, friends etc etc.

I agree with Aculias here.


I didn't said that a murderer's parents wanted him to be a murderer.I said they made him,subconciously.

You also said about TV,friends,etc.All things might have or not have a 4th years old kid are in his parents hand.For example parents are able to expose him or not on tv and violence in his early years.
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william
william


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LummoxLewis
posted April 22, 2007 01:35 PM

Most kids interact with TV's at early age.

And the parents do not make murderers, the people themselves make themselves murderers.

The Parents might sorta influence him in a way, but they do not MAKE him.

It is the things around the kid that might make him, friends, tv, music, etc etc.


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TheDeath
TheDeath


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with serious business
posted April 22, 2007 01:38 PM

Just to point out, young kids that see violence at an early stage may as well see it as a bad thing -- not necessarily one which they will do.

However they can as well feel revenge on people if their parents beat them or similar. Some people/kids just ignore that, yes they are rare, but still

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william
william


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LummoxLewis
posted April 22, 2007 01:42 PM

Yes, I agree with you.

I do not think that parents make their kids turn into bad people, but some of their actions might influence the kid to become one, that, and other things that could influence them like tv, music etc etc, what they see in everyday life, all that stuff.

Parents do have a part of it, but there are many other things that outweigh the parents influences in my opinion, although the parents are big role models for them, other things like video game characters could take over and be their new role models, and this could be bad.

But, video games being blamed for violence is pretty stupid.

People should know right from wrong, and not look for a way out, like blaming the video games for their stupid actions.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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with serious business
posted April 22, 2007 01:47 PM

Quote:
...although the parents are big role models for them...
Some kids definetely don't want to be like their parents

but yeah everyday stuff affects them the most

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william
william


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Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted April 22, 2007 01:53 PM

Yeah I agree, some don't wanna be like their parents, especially if they think they are bad parents, and most, to a degree do, especially if kids do not get their own way, then they will think of their parents as horrible, but when their parents do what the kid wants, then they love the parents.

lol, it all is very weird.
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Geny
Geny


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posted April 22, 2007 02:08 PM

Actually, parents are probably the most important factor.
What else did you mention?

music, tv, video games?
Well, I listen to rock/metal music and have many friends that are into death metal, we also watch action and horror movies, play games like gta and man hunt and postal, but we don't start running around with a gun or even a baseball bat or a knife for that matter.

friends?
well, if their parents raised them well enough their influence should on others should be nothing but good.
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william
william


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LummoxLewis
posted April 22, 2007 02:20 PM

Quote:
music, tv, video games?
Well, I listen to rock/metal music and have many friends that are into death metal, we also watch action and horror movies, play games like gta and man hunt and postal, but we don't start running around with a gun or even a baseball bat or a knife for that matter.


Yes, but everyone is different.

Ever watched the news or listened to it?

I have heard some people killing others in the street, and then they blame it on GTA.

That game has had several court cases with it, because stupid idiots blaming their actions on the game, and lives lost or are injured because of their actions, and their stupidity in taking the stuff from the game, and reenacting it in real life.

It is completely stupid.

I watch Action and Horror movies as well, but that does not make me go out and kill people, and you know why?

Because I am different, and those movies are to my taste.

Other people mght be sucked into it, and think it to be so realistic, that they still think they are in it when they are in the real world, and they might start killing people.

But I doubt that would happen, and if it has, then it is a really rare  thing to happen.

I thought Man Hunt was banned?

Quote:
friends?
well, if their parents raised them well enough their influence should on others should be nothing but good.


People have the right to choose who they hang out with, and who their friends are, and some punk friends might not be the greatest influence on a kid, especially if they wanna 'act cool' or 'be one of them', and then they start doing the things they do, sometimes without noticing it.

People, well teenagers in particular, wanna fit in, wanna be part of a group, so they will try stuff to get into a particular group, do things that the group does, maybe smoking, bashing younger kids, who knows.

But some people will do crazy things at times, for weird reasons.

And friends could be someones biggest influence.
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted April 23, 2007 12:48 AM

Protect us WIlly.
Go on your rampage & dispose of those people who dare hurt us
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Trogdor
Trogdor


Legendary Hero
or it's nothing
posted April 23, 2007 07:29 AM

Quote:
I thought Man Hunt was banned?


I hear it was banned in NZ, but was released as an MA15+ game here in OZ, there were even TV ads for it.

As for videogames being the cause of violence, it isn't always the case, though the Columbine incident can be blamed on videogame violence. In fact the night before the Columbine shooting the suspects spent all night playing DooM 2, so I guess life sometimes imitates art. And the school shooting in Germany some years back? That was also blamed on videogames, and violent games were found in his house, which in Germany is considered illegal.

And there was another incident in Brazil in the nineties where a man, inspired by Duke Nukem 3D, went to a cinema and starting shooting up the place. As a result Duke Nukem 3D, along with other games such as DooM, Mortal Kombat and Postal, were banned from sale.
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