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| Thread: ToH point sistem |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 05:48 AM |
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ToH point sistem
I dont like how work point sistem in ToH atm. For begining When 2 plaers with big points diference play who have alot more from win get 0 points but from loss will loss 50-80. Its complete not fair and make old ppl do not play with nubies. I think minimal points per win (5 for example) will be alot better. When some 1 loss 3-5-6hours for play he deserve 5 points when can loss alot more. Geting 0 for win is stupid.
Other big problem and main reson for make this treat is points for h3/h4/h5 are same. I did last day game on h3 with person who play it last few years and not play h5. So becasue he not play h5 he have 1000 points and my curent h5 is 1625 or soo. But this is not real for my and his h3 strenge. I loss game and we report it in ToH. When i chek rankings is see this game get from my h5 points for loss in h3 game. WTF is this? If we play 20 games in h5 i will beat him 20 games (for 0 points) ...he dont know this game and never play it. Why i need loss my hard get points from h5 vs oponent who is alot better in h3 from me atm. Here need to have diferent points for h3/h4/h5. Good example is Bad_Boxa. He will beat in h3 most ppl in ToH...but will loss in h5 from most ppl. His strenge in h3 is like Emperor but have 1272 points for h5.
Point sistem need be improved and be diferent for h3/h4/h5...or i need stop play h3 games for ToH because all old h3 players have 1000 points in toh but alot more in LRH/WC and i will get 0 per win and loss 50-80 for loss. No 1 like to play games where only can loss and win noting.
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morgan_le_fey
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 06:30 AM |
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or you could consider it a challenge to learn to play h3 better.
morgan le fey.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 06:46 AM |
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Quote:
or you could consider it a challenge to learn to play h3 better.
morgan le fey.
Its not about how good i'm play h3. If i beat him 9 from 10 games result will be same. 0 points gains for me and 50-80 for him from 1 win. Why when we are both new for h3 in ToH ?
Its prety simple. ppl are different good in h3/h4/h5. If points are same for all games...ppl will play only version where are most strong.Result will be less games. From this we all loss.
P.S. maybe you can give me some lessons in h3 morgan le fey? 
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 07:37 AM |
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btw. If i'm n00b in h3 and loss most from my games, my h5 points will drop fast to 1200. So when i play with ppl in my range h5 i will get easy wins...and if play some 1 from 1500-1600 range and beat him he will loss much because i have 1200.
Why other ppl need pay for my mistakes in h3?
If point sistem cant be fix i will reg new nick for h3 only...but this is not right way.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted May 17, 2007 08:04 AM |
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this complaint has been the same with any high ranked player since ToH started 9 years ago. I hear it everytime some players get to the lord/legionnaire status.
The difference in this season is that there are less high ranking players due to a lower activity, so it keeps high ranking players more isolated.
But Elit, I'm not going to change 9 years of a very well worked out system and automation because you lost to a player.
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 09:05 AM |
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Elit, I can tell you one thing for sure: changing the system score for a tournament is not an easy thing to do. Besides there are actually more things to adjust for entire reporting system if you change 1 single variable (it's not worth it unless you want to readjust the entire tournament which I doubt Vesuvius has in mind at the moment).
The fact is, Toh system is very good but it will work well if there are lots of games played (it was created to support lot of traffic).
The real challenge for Heroes these days is that there are lots of new games "born" each day... the amount of players remains the same (maybe a bit higher)... and they simply split up. Eventually I'm guessing games counted in thousands for one tournament will be a rarity.
So each of us should enjoy at maximum every moment spent into this unforgettable era called "Heroes".
All my best,
cos
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 09:26 AM |
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If there is points for winning newbies, most will end up being a newbie killer only. That will spoil the game somehow.
But think of how u kill the legionaires in the past when u just came on, maybe you will feel better 
Anyway, play more h5, stop your h3 !!!
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 10:10 AM |
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Oh common , who would bother to play for several hours only to get 5 points? I support the idea that there should be some minimal points for the win. It doesn't take serious changes to introduce this rule, does it? Some people just like watching how they ranking grow.. why not let them.. few points per win means nothing but you always feel better.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 10:40 AM |
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Edited by Elit at 13:14, 18 May 2007.
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I know make few point sistem for h3/h4/h5 will be hard. But minimal 5 poitns per win cant be so hard.
About h3 its simple. Need new nick for h3 only. No idea to play against players with Lord/Empero skills and 1000 toh points. Sad they cant keep his old points from h3 sezon 
Ye life is suck
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted May 17, 2007 03:34 PM |
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now is 30 win, 20 loss, (+-) the %
could be 35 win, 20 loss..
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted May 17, 2007 06:45 PM |
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Its simple, Elit, if you want to -- you can open up a second ToH account, for H3 games only. But do not forget that you had a win already vs. a h3 player and saw it on your rankings before you had that loss... so you knew the consequences of losing to a 1000 player.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 06:58 PM |
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Edited by Elit at 19:16, 17 May 2007.
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Yes Ves, i have few games in h3 and don't plan to use other nick. I'm plan to pwnd toh in h5+h3 
Makae minimal 5 points per win and i will be Emperor soon 
Lets games begin !
P.S. My 1st h3 game is win but my 1st report game from both side is loss.From it i see this get from h5 points. This make me sad-->mad-->crazy because none tell me for this
Now i know risk.
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AL_Killmore
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 09:03 PM |
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I agree with the idea - 3 points minimum per win should be very good.
Zero points for a win is just not right ...
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betruger
Known Hero
empowered mind
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posted May 18, 2007 12:25 AM |
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I agree that some minimum points per win would be nice.
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MysticPhoenix
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 18, 2007 01:00 AM |
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On Drachenwald (which is much smaller than ToH of course), we used the TOH point system for our ranking. Why inventing the wheel a second time, when there is a good system which is running in a successful way?
However, we decided that you will gain at least 5 points for a win and lose at least 5 points for a loss. 5 points isn't a big deal, but it gives enough motivation to experienced players to play against others who have a lot of points less than they have.
But Vesuvius knows ToH for a long time and when it worked that way before, it will do so in future too, I suppose.
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 18, 2007 01:34 AM |
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Edited by cosmin at 22:03, 18 May 2007.
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Hello all,
I made some changes for even better understanding.
Before you suggest modifications to the scoring system, please take the time to read this info.
I’ll try to explain a bit why these minimal points earned from a win cannot reflect the truth inside the calculation formula used by TOH (and other tournaments).
So a player starts with 1000 points. First, let’s calculate the minimum rating a player may have that would bring him 0 points for a win against a new registered player (I’ll call this DP – die points):
TOH FORMULA: Rn=Ro + 30 +0.05*(D)
This means that we need to calculate when Rn = Ro (so the rest actually is 0 or less then 0).
I will use =< as less or equal
30 + 0.05*(D) =< 0
30 + 0.05*(1000 - DP) =< 0
30 + 5*(1000 - DP)/100 =< 0
3000 + 5*(1000 - DP) =< 0
3000 + 5000 -5DP = < 0
8000 – 5DP =<0 here we divide everything by 5
1600 – DP =<0
So actually DP must be more than or equal to 1600 to get 0 points for a win playing against a new registered user.
Let’s translate this into rankings:
You must be Lord or Emperor to get 0 points for a win playing against a Recruit.
Now please pay attention what’s going on from a programming point of view:
As you notice all rating points are integer numbers, meaning that there would never be a rating score like 1566.31 (for example).
So to avoid this thing, the programmers are using a function to approximate a non integer number to an integer one: -> 1566.31 = 1567
Depending on what function is used, the system might add value or decrease value when rounding:
1566.31 = 1567 – if adding value is used or
1566.31 = 1566 – if decreasing value is used
I’m guessing that TOH is using the adding value, so the first example would be applicable.
The adjusting function is applied to the 0.05*(D) part. Many times this product is a non integer number (ex):
0.05*(1600-1433) = 8.35
(1600 and 1433 are the ratings prior to playing the game, I’m sure you’ve seen these numbers on many players’ rating).
So 8.35 would be transformed into 9.
But you should know here that the rounding formula used will add value even if the number is closer to minimum than the maximum:
12.01 would be 13 and NOT 12.
-29.99 would be -29 not -30 (!!!)
The things may be complicated here to add the right adjustment:
1566.50 Or higher = 1567 – if adding value is used or
1566.49 Or less = 1566 – if decreasing value is used
This “integer” makes our life even more miserable if we really get inside of that happen;
I’ll show you some results when playing against 1000-points player from different rating points:
1. 1600 Vs 1000
The “0.05*(1000-1600)” is exactly -30
2. 1599 Vs. 1000
The “0.05*(1000-1599)” is -29.95
3. 1591 Vs. 1000
The “0.05*(1000-1591)” is -29.55
3. 1590 Vs. 1000
The “0.05*(1000-1590)” is -29.50
And so on!
If both rounding’s are active,
-29.55 and lower would become -30
-29.50 and higher would become -29
As you may calculate here for 1599 rating the win would bring nothing.
For 1590 the win would finally bring 1 point.
Simply there’s no way to avoid it, if you want a 4 numbers rating score (integer).
The only thing to do is to use always the adding value function so even -29.95 would become -29 (1599 rating players would get 1 point).
It is a matter of choice, either way it will work.
At the moment we stick with the double rounding function.
On the other hand, notice the minimum score a player needs to have so a LORD may earn 1 point for a win (I’ll call it MP - minimum points):
TOH FORMULA: Rn=Ro + 30 +0.05*(D)
This means that we need to calculate when Rn > Ro (so the rest actually is always higher then 0).
30+0.05*(D) > 0
I will use the lowest score (1600) that will earn 0 points for win against 1000-player.
The minimum integer value of this 30+ 0.05*(MP-1600) is 1.
So knowing that 0.05*(MP-1600) is always a negative number (when the higher ranking player wins), the minimum value of this would be -29
Rn=Ro + 30 +0.05*(D)
Rn = 1600+30 – 29 = 1601 (indeed increases the pre-game score)
I’ll use => as equal or higher than
0.05*(MP-1600) => -29
0.05*(MP-1600) => -29
5*(MP-1600)/100 => -29
MP – 1600 => - 29*20
MP => 1600-580
MP=>1020
What this means? 1 game played by a new guy to give the poor Lord 1 point.
So let’s get the actual difference that will bring the higher rating player minimum 1 point:
1600 – 1020 = 580
To prove that I’ll calculate instant the minimum points that a player must have to bring 1 point to an Emperor:
1900-580 = 1320
Now let’s apply the Toh’s formula:
Rn=Ro + 30 +0.05*(D)
Rn = 1900 + 30 + 0.05*(1320-1900) = 1900 +30 + 0.05 (-580) = 1900+30 + (-29) = 1901
Look a bit at the difference:
How hard it is to earn 1320 points and of course somehow to satisfy the Emperor for playing the game against you?
At the beginning you take 25 to 30 points from every win.
Let’s find out how many games you need minimum:
320 / 30 = 10.(6) so we must round this to the true value 11.
What about regular (not taking only 30 points let’s suppose you take only 20)
320 / 20 = 16 games to play
But 1 TOH season has 1 year.
If there are not enough players having 1320 points it is not because is so hard to get it, but because there are no games played!
Guys, you have to understand one thing once for all: like everything in this world, NOTHING IS PERFECT! No matter how you adjust the formula, someone will always be disappointed. At least in its present form, the formula is tried, tested and reflects the truth in chess official tournaments around the world (I don’t see why the truth of Heroes should be different from the truth of chess).
The formula was not created for TOH, they just used it as a better alternative instead of giving a fix number of points for each win. When the number of games disputed in a tournament is limited, the players’ satisfaction could suffer in some specific cases. However, at the end of the tournament nobody will get ahead unless they suffer the same penalty.
The reward of advancing to a higher RANKING (e.g. Lord) sooner than other players is that you have more time to find games that will boost your ranking; the less time the smaller your chances. You should not be disappointed that you’re a Lord and get no points for a win. Everyone who gets to this position will face the same thing.
The fact that you play against a 1000-point player is not ToH’s fault. You do it because you enjoy playing Heroes and because nowadays there are fewer players of Heroes in general. It is hard for higher-ranking players to find partners, but it is equally hard for new players as well.
This is actually the problem!! If there would be many games played, new players would advance faster (and the formula is created to help them advance very quickly). In turn, higher ranking players would have more players to play against. Because as it stands, a Lord (1600) doesn’t take points from a completely new player, yet it DOES take points from a player who has 1020 points (1 game played and won). If the new player would have the opportunity to play, s/he would subsequently be able to play against a Lord and both players would be motivated to do so. Therefore, try to think outside your particular situation and understand the real problems.
There is nothing humanly possible to do (in terms of the scoring formula), unless you force 30+0.05*(D) to be equal to 2 (or 3 or 4 etc) when it becomes 0.
And here is the fact you all miss:
IF YOU USE THAT, then the formula has been implemented for nothing, because it will not reflect the truth anymore:
Let’s say we use a 4 points limiting for a win.
That means that 30+0.05*(D) should always be equal to or higher than 4.
We are actually not talking ONLY about the case when 30+0.05*(D) = 0
Why? Because the formula has other 3 points that we skip:
If for 0 we give 4 then for 1 what are we going to do????
What about 2 or 3?
We are forced to adjust them too. So we alter the basic formula (not only for one case but as you see above for 4 cases) without knowing whether the result continues to reflect the truth (if you accept my opinion, based on two months of calculation and research, it will not reflect the truth anymore).
What will this situation lead to? Somehow predictable: it will bring less credibility for this kind of tournaments and it is completely unfair!!!!!!!! Heroes Tournaments brought joy into our life, made us lots of new friends and gave us many hours of Heroes over the years… (9 years… means a lot to me, I’m sure it changed our life-style, our thinking…)
My thought is that we need to readjust our behavior as well. Let’s support the tournament, not blame it. Let’s find a way to grow our community, not give a bad example for new people that might repopulate it. If a new player wants to join us…what does he see here? So many problems, so many blames… Is this what you want? I don’t!
I’m just a player, and that’s what I’m going to be. It took me some time to understand it, but everybody has to travel the same road and change the same number of shoes to get to the same destination.
cos
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted May 18, 2007 01:46 AM |
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It is an issue more so than before I'd guess. We don't have 80+ lords and 10 Emperors to throw their weight around..
I think originally the system worked very well as it was designed so that just what is being discussed here didn't happen.
It was set so that it wasn't reasonable for a lord or emperor to challenge a footman. This is when Zone was sitting at 75+ people per day though. And noobie picking could have put you high in the rankings.
I think it is important to continue to reward the higher ranked players with something for the 5-6 hours they put into a game.
But now, to expand our gaming community and hold the players that are playing, maybe something should be done. Most people have the choice of 1-2 players they can play. Its not like high ranked players are on a plebe killing rampage here hehe. But in order to play a game, sometimes they are going to have to play vs a low ranked player. Starting a game in a tournament knowing you get nothing either way.. and potentially losing yourself 70 points is pretty harsh imo.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 18, 2007 09:35 AM |
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Isn't it possible to just add a function max[points you get now,5] for the win to solve this?
The problem is not in new players advancing too slow but stop of progress of high players. When you say that they have exact the same chances for a game i agree but the reward for those game is totally different. Look at Betruger. He is no longer emperor. Why? For sure he didnt lose too many games comparing to wins. He had to play one of few lords to actually achieve anything and while there are so few of them its not easy to find a game against them and like Destro said perspective of not gaining anything from a win in tournament is just wrong. Everybody can get lucky sometimes and steal you a win , even noobs, this factor should be reflected somehow in point system. With so small community gaining no points (or 1 or 2) just ends in fewer games played in TOH.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted May 18, 2007 07:51 PM |
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Edited by vesuvius at 19:56, 18 May 2007.
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ever heard of inflation? It ruins economies.
anyways, you're telling me that giving a minimum of 5 points for a win instead of one will give better chance of you playing someone who might make you lose 50+ points... I doubt it.
a new player with 1000 points I doubt will ever be able to beat a lord or legionnaire. Seriously. And if he does, well then he deserves the high points, and the sooner he meets up with others in the baron+ category... thus reflecting his skill.
as for betruger, he broke the 1900 point mark barely... then had a string of losses, which brought him back down to lord... and that was to other legionnaires/lords... not to a footman.
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted May 18, 2007 10:47 PM |
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Edited by cosmin at 23:07, 18 May 2007.
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Hello again!
Making a joke at the end, I will tell you another side of the points system that I'm sure fewer of you thought of.
Playing for TOH and being able to achieve a high ranking position doesn't actually means "you only have to attend the games"! ()
Why I used this "attend"?
Because giving minimum points for a win 4 (for example), that's what actually playing games would mean.
If you play lots of games and won them, then for those games which you don't deserve points (or more then 1) you take 4. So a player that plays will win the tournament all the time.
Now i go back a bit to a season when i was active on TOH. And let me tell you something:
The winner was Maretti. Second place Tc_Fear, third place was Saint_bg, 4'th place was me, fifth place was Papa_zd, 6'th place was Ginterlen.
I think nobody will ever doubt of Maretti's success. Also no suprize seeing Tc, Saint, Papa, Ginterlen right?
And accessing the TOH's history page you see that on the previous season, Maretti finishes having 85 wins and 36 looses.
On this particular season we are talking about Maretti had 176 wins and 68 looses.
Making the difference we obtain 91 wins and 32 looses (with this actually he won the tournament).
Move a bit down and let's take a look at Papa_zd's portfolio:
He has 297 wins and 285 looses (previous season 179-175).
the diffrence would give - 118 wins 110 looses
Maretti having 2162 points, Papa_zd having 1882 points.
Both Emperors, both very good players, very honorable. A pleasure to play them all the time.
IF TOH'S FORMULA IS SO BAD, how Papa_zd finished the tournament on Emperor position??
He lost only to very good players (loosing the minimum points all the time), and won only against Maretti? (to get the maximum amount of points he could have earned)(!!!!) ()
No! 100% sure of that. So 118-110 (wins-losses) will place you on emperor position only IF YOU ARE GOOD. That's what actually the formula calculates: to place you exactelly where you deserve to be.
Still don't believe it? Take a look again and look closely this time.
As you see games brings points!(and the value of that player of course)(not adjusted formula!!!).
I've seen someone saying that not this is our problem... Then what would that be? I might add that a second problem would be the fact that fewer of you wasted your time to calculate and prove with numbers what is going to happen if we alter the formula. Not enough to say something, you might need to prove your point with something. Do you?
cos
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