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| Thread: Heroes 5 Weaponry, Armory and Historic / Mythologic relations |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 06, 2007 02:57 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 14:58, 06 Sep 2007.
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A good addition nocaplato  Looking forward to seeing more.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 06, 2007 03:35 PM |
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First of all thank you very much for this informative post. I really liked it actually i even learned something about the Furies^^
But I still have one question:
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Addendum
By the way, the origin story for the Furies is focused on several titans. Ouranos and Gaia had several monstrous offspring, prior to the ascension of Zeus and his Olympian Gods. Ouranos imprisoned his offspring and Gaia called on the other titans for aid. Kronos responded, and attacked his father, lopping off his genitalia, and hurling the part into the sea. From the blood and phallus sprang the Erinyes, thus they were born out of crimes against family (imprisonment) and their birth is metaphorically a punishment (castration). They were doomed to their role from the start it seems.
Wasn't this the way Aprohdite (I don't know the correct english name... I mean the godess of love and beauty... the one who comes out of the ocean in an shell) came into the world? Or did she come with the Erinyes?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 06, 2007 03:42 PM |
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Yep it was Aphrodite. I did not check everything as I just got back from an exam but I'll be sure to leave some feedback later 
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted September 06, 2007 11:54 PM |
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Sorry if i gave the impression that i think ALL teachers are bad. Not even a majority really. but those who are ... Well
Yeah ive found a few teachers i liked. but a lot that when you came right down to it told you to do some pages on your textbook and then just went and read a newspaper. and those who are kind of evil.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 07, 2007 01:38 AM |
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These are ok. Others will hate you for no specific reason and do whatever they can to make fun of you in class or give you low grades. Or even have little idea of what they teach and attack you when you point their mistakes.
The one we had exams with today had corrected the last test he gave us only a couple of days before so that we'd know in the last moment if we had passed and have even less time to study. When someone complained he told us it disrespectful to him because preparation is supposed to take place during the semester and we're trying to pass with a few days' study. What a dumb@ss, I hate people who accuse you to cover their inadequacies. Even if I had attended every single lesson it takes time to refresh them. And last time we got the results after the results of the next semester were out 
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nocaplato
Adventuring Hero
Lover of Ancient Philosophy
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posted September 07, 2007 01:38 AM |
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Hey, I didn't know there was another posting similar to this. Missed it the first time for a good reason, but that's another story.
Had to look this one up just to make sure it was right, but regarding the origin of Furies and Aphrodite, yes the poet Hesiod says that Aphrodite was another of the products of Ouranos' castration. There were actually numerous gods, godlings, monsters and races of men given birth to as a result of this moment, including Nymphs, Gigantes (or giants, again there were three of these guys, sort of mini-titans and generally villains and foes of the Olympians) and Telkhines (various types, among which are elder Cyclopses).
Homer, in the Iliad, on the other hand simply claims Aphrodite was one of Zeus' offspring.
As for teachers... yeah, there are members of any profession who shouldn't be there. Generally though, I think teachers are a pretty driven lot. They may not always be good, but most of the ones I know do actually sacrifice a lot to do their jobs and reach kids.
I'll post more tonight or tomorrow, don't have time now thanks to more college classes I've gotta take.
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nocaplato
Adventuring Hero
Lover of Ancient Philosophy
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posted September 08, 2007 02:13 AM |
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Don't mean to spam, but the Dragon is updated and the Witch should be added soon, along with some general overview materials on the Dark Elves as a group.
By the way, any thoughts, disagreements, additions, oversights or recommended reading would be greatly appreciated on my part. Thanks in advance.
Edited on Frey's Day, Sept (7 by Roman reconing) ember, the 7th.
Okay, I'm done with the Dungeon, at least as a first draft (in spite of some typos and misspellings, please forgive me). I'd love to continue, but don't know what's most interesting to everyone else. I'm tempted to go next into the Inferno, I do love Dante, but am curiuos to know what others reading this malarky would find interesting. I'll spew out some more on whatever someone claims next, though I don't want to talk about the Haven faction much at all... boring except for Griphons, Inquisitors and Angels.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 08, 2007 02:40 AM |
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Nice. I already knew most of those things though I had missed some symbolisms instead focusing on the stories I never thought of the labyrith as a parallel to the mind with the minotaur being the instinct that finds its way to the surface.
As for the furies I only knew them as Erinyes. Maybe you have heard of Klytemnistra that killed her husband and king Agamemnon when he returned from Troy with the help of her lover. Orestis her son killed her for that but was afterwards haunted by the Erinyes and could never find rest until he atoned by finding his long lost sister Ifigenia. The point is that if you were guilty there was no escaping their torment.
I doubt Nival thought it that much about the nature of the serpent and the cold treacherous dark elves but maybe D&D did. In the dark elf trilogy where Nival mentioned got its inspiration from the dark elves move around with lizard mounts that move at a deadly speed and can walk on walls or even ceilings. In a later book Drizzt faces a noble dark elf that weilds a 'death lance' that is pretty much a portrayal of the grim raiders we know. Well except that they ride a velociraptor-like lizard 
The story I know about the hydra tells that the last hydra head was immortal so Hercules had to bury it somewhere.
Finally I have heard of the world serpent, I think it was the one that would wreak havoc when the ragnarok came? Norse mythology is very compelling
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 08, 2007 08:42 AM |
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Quote:
Orestis her son killed her for that but was afterwards haunted by the Erinyes and could never find rest until he atoned by finding his long lost sister Ifigenia. The point is that if you were guilty there was no escaping their torment.
Just asking wasn't Ifigenia sacrifed by Agamemnon to poseidon in order to get good winds?? So that he finally could invade troy? Or was that an other daugther?
And yeah the world serpant is called "Midgårdsormen". Midgård: Is the world of the humans in norse mythology and Midgårdsormen is suppose to be so long that it reaches arround Midgård and bites itself in the tail (Much like the Inferno Symbol). It was forseen that Midgårdormen will be killed by Thor in their final battel (they met twice before that) at Ragnarok but Thor will die aswell because of the poison that is in the Blood of Midgårdormen.
And I would be very interessted in the Inferno faction. I allways thougth that the origins were kind of obvious (*cough*bible*cough*) but I guess there is more about them than I thought. So I would be happy if you would do something about Inferno.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 08, 2007 09:52 AM |
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Wikipedia.
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Other sources claim that Agamemnon was prepared to kill his daughter, but that Artemis accepted a deer in her place, and whisked her to Taurus in Crimea.
That's where Orestis and his friend Pyladis went and managed to bring her back. She was a priestess there and had a good place but she preferred to be in Greece.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 08, 2007 10:04 AM |
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Quote:
I'm tempted to go next into the Inferno, I do love Dante, but am curiuos to know what others reading this malarky would find interesting.
I'd love to read about Inferno. But hey, you're the one who does the writing, you should determine the subject yourself based on what you feel like.
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What will happen now?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 08, 2007 11:07 AM |
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Actually the witches are probably a name choice by Nival with little relevance to the actual situation and hierarchy. They wanted the upgraded unit called matriarch so what was missing is the basic unti 
I'll explain.
It is no small secret that Nival has ripped off borrowed some things from D&D so here is what was their inspiration. Each house in drow cities acts as a clan under the names house. There are numerous servants and soldiers ruled by the nobles of the house but the supreme power and the one who takes the decisions is the matron imbued with amazing physical and magical strength for following the spider goddess and her priestess daughters that help with the rituals and managing the house. Males' lives are irrelevant, should a priestess desire she could easily take a life even if it is her brother and a noble. At best a male can become a weaponmaster, mage or lover for the matron but they are still subject to the whims of the priestesses.
They are not secluded, they rule - doesn't it seem strange that a witch would become a matriarch? Maybe a bit.
Dungeon IS full of symbolisms but it was always supposed to be a dark faction with evil units. Only the centaurs and griffins I could not consider evil but you could feel the general mood anyway Dark elves are about seizing power with strength and manipulation and don't particularly care about what happens above the surface. At worst they'll do a raid to kill and return but they generally consider the others unworthy of their time. Demons on the other side are bent on destroying everything which is pretty worse in comparison.
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nocaplato
Adventuring Hero
Lover of Ancient Philosophy
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posted September 08, 2007 08:44 PM |
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Ahh, the Drow connection makes tons of sense. Couldn't see the forest for all the trees there...
Speaking of Drow, in digging around last night I found out there are such things as Drow in folklore. The word comes from 11th century Scottland and refers to evil or dark spirits, sometimes equated with elves or other harmful magical creatures. Beyond that, the D&D Drow have nothing in common with the stories.
The *ahem* borrowing from D&D is pretty obvious in most places, I'm sure this has been mentioned someplace before, but the D&D alignment system seems to match out pretty nicely with the factions. Haven = Lawful Good, Sylvan = Chaotic Good, Academy = Neutral Good, Necropolis = Neutral Evil, Inferno = Chaotic Evil, Dungeon = Lawful Evil (this is implied in Elvin's comments on Inferno and Dungeon behaviours too). With the two new expansions I think the extension of Dwarves = Lawful Neutral and Orcs = Chaotic Neutral is possible, while there are also simply 'Neutrals' like wolves and elementals. Most of the factions also seem to be paired accurately to their D&D enemies (e.g. the CG Sylvan are opposites and hated enemies of the LE Dungeon).
So, the Inferno's next on the list, but I've got tons of work this weekend. I'll try to post at least once over the next two days regarding Familiars, Horned Demons... maybe Pit Lords?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 08, 2007 09:31 PM |
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Academy and fortress seem to have a very similar morality though different politics As for sylvan they don't seem particularly chaotic to me or I have not seen many. Gilraen, Findan and Alaron in the campaigns seem more on the lawful side with Findan binded by his word not to harm Biara to get the scroll.
I know about familiars and demons but have not looked into pit lords. This should be enlightening
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted September 08, 2007 11:27 PM |
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Elvin, doesn't this particular moment remind you of the [url=http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=20915&pagenumber=1]"Good and Evil"[/url] thread i made some time ago?
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted September 09, 2007 04:48 AM |
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Quote:
It is no small secret that Nival has ripped off borrowed some things from D&D so here is what was their inspiration. Each house in drow cities acts as a clan under the names house. There are numerous servants and soldiers ruled by the nobles of the house but the supreme power and the one who takes the decisions is the matron imbued with amazing physical and magical strength for following the spider goddess and her priestess daughters that help with the rituals and managing the house. Males' lives are irrelevant, should a priestess desire she could easily take a life even if it is her brother and a noble. At best a male can become a weaponmaster, mage or lover for the matron but they are still subject to the whims of the priestesses.
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Now i swear ive seen the EXACT same thing written in the series of books written by Salvatore. The series was called war of the spider queen .all this was almost word for word really. are they one and the same?
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 09, 2007 04:53 AM |
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Yeah, my ideas have not changed much since then There have been a few alignment discussions around even indirectly.
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nocaplato
Adventuring Hero
Lover of Ancient Philosophy
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posted September 09, 2007 07:56 PM |
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Inferno
Well, I hope I can live up to the billing and actually put out some new information here…
To start with, the Inferno town is wonderfully named. It does mean Hell in both Latin and Italian, and is the name of the first book of Dante’s Divine Comedy. Prior to Dante there was relatively little understanding of Hell in the Catholic world beyond the general materials mentioned in the earlier incarnations of faith (such as the trench of Gehenna outside Jerusalem which was the burning pit for the city’s trash) as well as earlier Greek and Babylonian myths plus vague references to a lake of burning sulfur in the Bible. Dante, however, created a geographical lay out for the Inferno that has, in some ways, romanticized and made concrete our general concept of the place now. Anyone who’s played D&D and knows the planar cosmology given by TSR and Wizards of the Coast will basically recognize Dante’s Hell of 9 planes where each layer is designed to punish a group sins, is ruled over by certain arch-devils (Geryhon is taken directly from Dante) and is occupied by various types of punishing devils. Dante was the first to give dimension and character to Hell, and it’s thanks in large part to him, that gamers can have fun jouncing about and slaying devils down there in a fleshed out alternate plane of existence.
All that said, the Inferno faction has only limited connection to Dante’s hell. There are three, possibly four elements that Nival has used originating in Dante, though one of the ones I’ll mention is arguable. Now, whether or not Nival did it intentionally or just borrowed from Dungeons and Dragons, I suppose, doesn’t matter. However, Nival has taken elements of another game, namely Doom 3, and borrowed its visual architecture to such a degree it’s hard to deny the homage (or plagiarism). When you go to the Inferno town you’ll see odd bits and pieces of concrete and brick floating out there in the middle of space, flaming doorways, portals and the like. The same sort of architecture is to be found in many areas in Doom and their similarity seems unmistakable to me… eh, I could be wrong. Anyway, on to the:
Familiar
I’m sure the idea of a familiar is pretty well known to everyone. They are, of course, the assistants to witches in folklore and they help any arcane spell caster in the D&D system in a far less demonic way. The familiars of folklore are devils transformed into cats, toads, ravens and the like who serve as both an aid and task-master to witches. Familiar lore tends to place them as contractual assistants, requiring one or more of three commitments from the witch, 1) that she sell her soul, 2) that she renounce her faith and 3) that she feed the familiar either blood or food. They are closely associated with all sorts of faerie creatures including imps, pixies, faeries, hobgoblins and so on. Occasionally imps and their faerie relations were named in hopes of gaining some control over them and a few have become rather famous including Puck and Robin Goodfellow. The two names are combined into the character Puck in A Midsummer Night’s Dream. Shakespeare did not invent the Puck/Robin Goodfellow character for his play, rather the two names were well known long before he popularized and immortalized them.
Symbolically Imps are richer in meaning than familiars generally. The concept of an Imp is something like an annoyance, but one that can cause its victim to stop growing in positive ways or which can prevent us from completing important duties. Imps are not major issues in our lives, they don’t cause phobias and aren’t the result of traumatic events. These problems are not capable of changing our personalities, but they can prevent us from growth, or working through daily problems or issues. For example, midlife crisis prevents people from growing past middle adulthood. Some problem, like the feeling that we’ve lost some important part of our youth or the attempt to stop aging, can be characterized as Imp-like personal dilemmas. They frustrate us, slow us down for a while, but don’t threaten us in any real way. Sometimes symbolic imps can actually work to our benefit. By forcing a brief regression, people can come to better solutions to the blockage that created the regression in the first place. Robin Goodfellow is excellent examples of this sort of thing where through his interference he is able to, accidentally, cause the forward progress of Demetrius’ love and therefore allow all three weddings of the play to come to a happy conclusion.
Horned Demon
The origins of the Horned Demon, as with most of demons, is extremely difficult to isolate. It was not uncommon for the church to reinterpret all sorts of early pagan gods as demons or versions of the devil as Christianity spread. Since many European pagan cultures (and many non-European ones for that matter) depicted half human, half animal creatures as gods, it’s not surprising to find several ranks or types of demons who have horns. The Greek god Pan is one highly likely source for many of the characteristics we associate with the Devil, he was horned, had cloven hooves and the lower half of a goat, including the goats legs. Naturally finding horns on demons and devils will be extremely easy, and Nival uses them liberally on all of its Inferno creatures with the exception of the Cerberus. Even the Nightmare has a horn, like a twisted unicorn. Still, the name Horned Demon and Horned Overseer emphasizes this element of the 2nd tier Inferno creature more than normal.
Of the several creatures I suggested might have a direct connection to Dante’s Inferno, this is one. Dante invents relatively few creatures of his own, preferring mostly to draw from mythology, however he does invent at least one, the Malebranche who are responsible for tormenting the various sins of Fraud on the 8th circle. Malebranche can be translated various ways, but one of the more common is ‘Evil Horns’ (i.e. horned demons). There are a couple problems with this possibility, namely that Dante says they have wings, and of course the Horned Demons of HoMM don’t. However, the Horned Devil of the 1st D&D Monster Manual (also called Malebranche in the book) looks quite a lot like the Horned Demon of the Inferno faction… if you only lop off its wings. Another problem with the idea that Horned Demons are those described by Dante is that the creatures Dante describes are of frightening power and danger, located far deeper in hell than would seem to merit a mere tier 2 status. I’ll make an argument later for the Pit Lords as being the Malebranche, based mostly on their strength and appearance, rather than the name.
Symbolically speaking demons and monsters are the dire problems and evils we face or unresolved personal crises of our nightmares. Unlike imps, demons are taken more seriously or have longer term consequences for our psychology. Typically an imp type problem is one that comes and goes, while our personal demons are things that unrelentingly haunt us or bother us about who we perceive ourselves to be. Demons are also frequently the representation of fears (especially fears of the unknown or the alien) and guilt (particularly guilt over past events or perceived faults).
Cerberus
Cerberus, in short, is the guardian of the Greek underworld. It is a three headed dog with snake-like tail and is the brother of the Hydra. It would allow the dead in, and a few of the living, but let none back out (though he was put to sleep and fed in some instances as bribes so that living heroes could escape... Heracles actually wrestled with it, dragging it to the surface as one of his labors).
Symbolically the Cerberus has come to represent a staunch guardian. Many dogs in symbolic mythology are equated with concepts like loyalty, friendship and guardianship. The Cerberus is the most stringent of guards for obvious reasons. Additionally, the three heads of the Cerberus are said to symbolize one of two things, generally. Either they stand for the past, present and future, or they stand for ‘earthly sins’ particularly sensation, desire and unfulfilled good intentions. The tail’s snake-like quality is symbolic of an anchoring to the earth. Like a snake, the Cerberus is stuck to the ground and incapable of transcendent growth. Thus the heads are not capable of ‘rising above’ but are constantly interested in matters of the flesh.
Dante took this idea a step further equating the Cerberus directly with the deadly sin of gluttony. Because Cerberus is known to be bribable with sweet cakes, Dante’s bridge is an easy one to understand. In The Inferno, Dante places Cerberus as the creature who punishes the gluttons, rather than as a guardian to the gates of hell themselves. Interestingly, and almost certainly by accident, the gluttons are punished on the third tier of hell. Similarly the Cerberus in HoMM is a 3rd tier creature… weird accident of fate?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 09, 2007 08:19 PM |
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I've read a midsummer's night dream and I felt a bit belittled Outstanding use of English and even better, old English of which many words I did not know. I didn't know Puck was already known, was he in another story or a local myth before Shakespeare put him in the book?
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 10, 2007 11:05 AM |
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Quote:
Well, I hope I can live up to the billing and actually put out some new information here…
Heehe don't worry this post was atleast as enlightning as the first (atleast for me). I didn't actually see the connection between Dante and Inferno but yeah what you say makes sense^^. Btw one question... I don't think that there is any historical/mythological reason for the Succubi/Pit Lord having turned arround wings is there?
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