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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 08, 2007 03:08 AM |
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What is sin? What the Bible tells you is sin? If you wish, this thread can become another debate on the truth (or lack thereof) of the Bible.
However, Shadey, you underestimate one very important thing: the social contract (the ancient one, the one that is as old as the human race). People will not exploit the system a lot because they, deep down inside, are worried that others will do the same. No one wants to really rock the boat.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 08, 2007 03:52 AM |
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Edited by Shadey at 04:04, 08 Aug 2007.
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Quote:
What is sin? What the Bible tells you is sin? If you wish, this thread can become another debate on the truth (or lack thereof) of the Bible.
However, Shadey, you underestimate one very important thing: the social contract (the ancient one, the one that is as old as the human race). People will not exploit the system a lot because they, deep down inside, are worried that others will do the same. No one wants to really rock the boat.
What is sin? Anything that is contrary to the nature of God is sin. Iniquity is the creation of your own moral code. Transgression is the intentional or unintentional breaking of any commandment made by God. I don't think your limited perception of truth is enough to decide once and for all whether or not the Bible is true.
I also think you overestimate the social contract. It wasn't able to prevent genocide, war, slavery, torture, or any number of ways people are taken advantage of daily. Perhaps you think that current genocides in Africa are the result of people who are afraid to rock the boat.
Here is the social contract working in the US in 1995.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_29.html
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 08, 2007 04:19 AM |
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What is sin? Anything that is contrary to the nature of God is sin.
Here we go again...
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I don't think your limited perception of truth is enough to decide once and for all whether or not the Bible is true.
Why do you think that your perception of truth is any better than mine?
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I also think you overestimate the social contract. It wasn't able to prevent genocide, war, slavery, torture, or any number of ways people are taken advantage of daily. Perhaps you think that current genocides in Africa are the result of people who are afraid to rock the boat.
Why did so few stand up to the Nazis? Because no one wanted to rock the boat. Similar situation in Africa. The social contract is quite different in such a situation. Under normal conditions, anyone advocating genocide would be ignored, laughed at, or considered crazy. However, when crippling poverty (and/or defeat in a previous war) strikes, such ramblings start to make more sense to many of the suffering people. However, even in Nazi Germany, the average person wouldn't go out and kill 20 people for fun. It was the guys who ran the concentration camps that did all of the killing. The social contract still applied: few rocked the boat, and (if you disregard the people in concentration camps) everything applied as always. I'm not saying that the concentration camps were a minor thing; I'm saying that they were mostly outside the social contract. They didn't violate it; they were outside it. Mostly, because guards didn't kill fellow guards often.
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Here is the social contract working in the US in 1995.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_29.html
Indeed it is working. Without it, things would be much worse.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 08, 2007 05:32 AM |
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Why do you think that your perception of truth is any better than mine?
I don't, but then again I don't flaunt the word around taunting people with it. (implying that you do)
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Why did so few stand up to the Nazis? Because no one wanted to rock the boat. Similar situation in Africa. The social contract is quite different in such a situation. Under normal conditions, anyone advocating genocide would be ignored, laughed at, or considered crazy. However, when crippling poverty (and/or defeat in a previous war) strikes, such ramblings start to make more sense to many of the suffering people. However, even in Nazi Germany, the average person wouldn't go out and kill 20 people for fun. It was the guys who ran the concentration camps that did all of the killing. The social contract still applied: few rocked the boat, and (if you disregard the people in concentration camps) everything applied as always. I'm not saying that the concentration camps were a minor thing; I'm saying that they were mostly outside the social contract. They didn't violate it; they were outside it. Mostly, because guards didn't kill fellow guards often.
So in this case the social contract has no relevance at all. I'm sure glad that it exists so that people can be on the outside of it.
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Indeed it is working. Without it, things would be much worse.
Yeah, otherwise they could be on the outside of the social contract and murder millions of people. Then people would stop them, or stand by and allow them to do anything, or wait how does the social contract do anything at all again?
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Setitetart
Known Hero
Reality check....
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posted August 08, 2007 07:17 AM |
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Not this again.....*sighs*
I didn't even bother to read the last page of comments, perhaps I should have...
The first pages of comments seemed a little heated, and I am in a good mood and I want to keep it that way, so I am just going to toss out my thoughts on the Bible.
If you like what I have to say...Great.
You don't...oh well. Not my problem.
First off.
I was raised a mostly catholic background, but due to my parents religious unrest we were several religions over the years.
I have taken the "confirmation" classes, and read the Bible from cover to cover as well as how it is meant to be read. I have read many different versions of the bible.
Most people that have a bible or 3 or 4 (different versions) all they do is sit in a bookshelf and gather dust. They aren't read unless there is some heated discussion of it and which point people scramble to grab the most unused book in their household to throw out passages that would support their point of view.
Other people who might read the bible do so only on sunday or special mass and otherwise that book is largly untouched and unread.
Back at the turn of the century and times before the bible was in the house for the purpose that it was meant for since families back in the day still believed in God and usually that was the only book in some households, even if people in the household couldn't read.
The bible and I:
I come away with a great story meant to inspire people today.
A fantastic read and great creativity to explain things and events that were going on around them.
It was not meant to judge, harrass, or exclude people (even though there are parts that do one or all of those things), but rather tell people of virtues and to ask that people treat each other as they themselves would like be treated. by way of the golden rule and the 10 commandments as rules to live by and in a peaceful manner.
However.
The bible is MAN motivated, PRO-man, mostly MAN written and therefore (many texts written by women were removed), In my eyes extremely unbalanced in that manner.
The bible as a whole is NOT pro-women and definitely NOT pro-child.
Examples of this:
Gen 3:16
2 Kings 8:12
2 Kings 15:16
Is. 13:16
Is. 13:18
Ez. 9:6
And that is just a few of the passages that deal with that, at least in MY interpretation.
To use it for anything other than the story it was intended, or to use it as your sole "moral compass" is irresponsible and ignorant.
Just saying.
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"Do you think we should drive a stake through his heart, just in case?"
~ Peter Lorre to Vincent Price at Bela Lugosi's funeral
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted August 08, 2007 07:42 AM |
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@Daystar:
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Jesus had this whole healing power stuff, suposedly, so before he died, would it not have made sense to go around healing everybody and getting rid of some diseases permenantly and stuff? Just a thought.
Exactly.
Jesus was great because he made a man able to see. Why not cure blindness?
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-Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from the dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.
I don't get the censoring thing...could you retranslate? The second part is good.
It means if someone disagrees with you, don't ignore or avoid it to remain right.
@Nid:
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Hat off for your list of commandments TA! Couldn't have said it any better myself 
Thankyou. I wish I could say that I came up with them, though they are as much mine as them as Moses' are his 
@Shadey:
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TA's guidelines to life are great untill someone decides they don't like TA's guidelines and lives a little differently.
I see a whole bunch of utopia idealisms that fall flat on their face as soon as someone decides that they would rather be greedy and have a bigger piece of the pie. You can blame the Bible and religious people if you want, but the true culprit is and always has been sin. Unless the source of the disease is cured, then all of your ideas will fail. I bet if the people in this thread talking about love, tolerance, and such and such had people following them around 24/7 like they do to Britney Spears they'd have their children taken away from them and shamed into solitude.
The Bible addresses the problem of sin. Your guidelines are fine, but nobody is going to follow them. Your guidelines do not address the problem of sin.
That's my point. It's all good and well to make rules, but it doesn't mean anything if no one follows them. And no one follows the rules of the bible, either.
And doesn't address sin? Don't be ridiculous. Sin is defined as breaking the rules of the bible. So new rules would redefine sin... you're not making sense. You're saying that more modern commandments would not work because they would not address 'sin' as it was, in other words "They won't work because they're not the same as the old ones."
Well here's news for you Shadey. The old commandments don't work. People still covet their neighbours ass.
@Baklava:
It all comes down to what I posted in the god thread.
Is something good because god commands it, or does god command it because it is good?
If it is good because god commands it, then god could, if he wished, command that torturing infants was good, and that would be absurd.
So if god command it because it is good, then we don't need to study god to study the good.
So if it wasn't already, the bible is made entirely redundant.
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John says to live above hell.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 08, 2007 08:18 AM |
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Jesus was great because he made a man able to see. Why not cure blindness?
Huh? What?  If he made him see, he cured the blindness, right? Or did you mean a metaphorical "made him see" ? 
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If it is good because god commands it, then god could, if he wished, command that torturing infants was good, and that would be absurd.
hahha, I'd love to see the look on your face if there was an afterlife, God and after your death, God told you "so you though you were THAT bright, smartass.. o rly.."
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted August 08, 2007 08:33 AM |
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cure blindness as a whole. so no one was blind... 
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hahha, I'd love to see the look on your face if there was an afterlife, God and after your death, God told you "so you though you were THAT bright, smartass.. o rly.."
Why would you love that? 
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John says to live above hell.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted August 08, 2007 11:16 AM |
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you know shady,lol again..if i was ur nehihboor the first thing i'd be telling u,is
suscribe to the atheist magazin.
there is no gods
bible suck
you lie
yada-yada.
and i'll brainwash you 
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types in obscure english
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
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Professional
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posted August 08, 2007 12:14 PM |
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lol anti
he's already been there, done that
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John says to live above hell.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 08, 2007 12:46 PM |
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cure blindness as a whole. so no one was blind...
He cured people with faith in them. And it seems that his power lied in his touch, so he had to touch every blind man on the planet to cure blindness. Which would be kinda absurd.
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So if it wasn't already, the bible is made entirely redundant.
Exactly. For the society of today, it is redundant. But, as Setty said, it had a point at that time. And today it can be looked upon as a book of legends of an ancient people - Old Testament; and as a philosophical work of art with primesses of history and mythology, much like many Hellenic books of the time - New Testament. In every case, it doesn't deserve repeatedly crapping upon. There are much more efficient ways to discriminate the Church.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
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Professional
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posted August 08, 2007 02:23 PM |
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Quote:
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cure blindness as a whole. so no one was blind...
He cured people with faith in them. And it seems that his power lied in his touch, so he had to touch every blind man on the planet to cure blindness. Which would be kinda absurd.
He's the son of god, he does what he wants. Tell that to a blind person, see how they react.
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John says to live above hell.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 08, 2007 03:57 PM |
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Quote:
He's the son of god, he does what he wants.
It doesn't work that way dude
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 08, 2007 04:51 PM |
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Quote:
Your guidelines are fine, but nobody is going to follow them.
They will follow them no less than they follow those set forth in the Bible.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 08, 2007 05:39 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
He's the son of god, he does what he wants.
It doesn't work that way dude
yea he was born human and had to obey the same physical laws as everybody. It's mentioned a few times that he channeled the healing power through a prayer to his father.
You can say that it's unlogical since God is three-person at once and he can't pray to himself, but come on.. it's God, I'm going to tell it again, what's the problem for him to be a couple of ppl at once?
According to Bible, Jesus was a part of his power.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 08, 2007 05:47 PM |
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Quote:
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Why do you think that your perception of truth is any better than mine?
I don't, but then again I don't flaunt the word around taunting people with it. (implying that you do)
You're the one who said that my perception of truth isn't good enough. I haven't even mentioned truth in this thread until you did. You're the one flaunting the word.
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So in this case the social contract has no relevance at all. I'm sure glad that it exists so that people can be on the outside of it.
This is, as I said, a special case. Who knows what the social contract prevented? We don't know, because when it worked, nothing happened.
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Yeah, otherwise they could be on the outside of the social contract and murder millions of people. Then people would stop them, or stand by and allow them to do anything, or wait how does the social contract do anything at all again?
Excuse me? Who stopped the Nazis? It was countries on the outside. The social contract doesn't stop crime and genocide completely; however, it prevents the vast majority. Think about it: if your friends and family killed someone without pause once every couple of weeks, and you were brought up in such an environment, you would have much less of a problem with murder than you normally would. With the social contract, even most criminals pause and think before comitting crimes. Without it, people would just take what they wanted all the time.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
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Professional
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posted August 09, 2007 04:45 AM |
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Quote:
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He's the son of god, he does what he wants.
It doesn't work that way dude
On the contrary.
If god wanted to heal all blindness/disease/miscellaneous bad stuff he would have, doesn't matter how he did it or if his son had to pray while obeying the laws of physics.
They're god's laws.
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John says to live above hell.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 09, 2007 10:00 AM |
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Looks like the diseases aren't here for a reason.
God doesn't interfere..
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 09, 2007 10:51 AM |
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The story goes:
1. Adam eats an apple.
2. God gets angry.
3. Gives us terrible pain and disease and sin.
4. Jesus comes and gets whipped.
5. Sin forgiven.
But the diseases remain...
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John says to live above hell.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 09, 2007 12:39 PM |
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Pain and disease are completely ordinary natural processes. If you really want to look at them as something sent ONLY to mankind to make it suffer, you can find a reason in constant raping of nature and natural ways that we always do - so those are simply punishments for that. Perhaps God doesn't like people ruining his works of art that much.
Those are but speculations of course. Pain is there to warn us if something's wrong, and diseases are virii and bacteria - living creatures just like ourselves. They have to live of something too.
This is a bit off-topic though. But I guess it doesn't matter anymore :/
I think I already said this some time ago, but for all those who missed it the first time: Threads are like children. At first you try to make them the way you want them to be, but in the end, they'll all end up God knows where...
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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This thread is pages long: 
