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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 09, 2007 01:38 PM |
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You wanted them to be full of speculation and Jesus defence?
You can claim that bacteria and viruses (virii not a word) have a right to be here, but that's not how the bible puts it. Prions and viruses aren't living, but bacteria are, however, they aren't created in god's image like we are. 
Nor does it say that raping the earth is a sin punishable by pain.
In fact some (I'd say many but I don't know how many) evangelical christians believe we have every right to rape the earth, and should do so as much as we please, because the rapture/jesus is coming anyway 
But again I guess that's just me trying to talk about the off-topic of The Bible again
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John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
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posted August 09, 2007 01:38 PM |
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Quote:
The story goes:
1. Adam eats an apple.
2. God gets angry.
3. Gives us terrible pain and disease and sin.
4. Jesus comes and gets whipped.
5. Sin forgiven.
lol no wonder you can't grasp the idea of christianity if you have such simplistic views about the stories or Bible.
I'll tell you a hint though: it's about the thoughts. (and God wasn't 'angry' by the way).
I could explain my views on it, but heck why? seriously after the I-Gave-Up-On.... blabla thread, I'm tired of it and it leads to no point.
i'll see if i have the time though
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 09, 2007 01:41 PM |
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The Death, don't make posts like that, it achieves nothing.
You quote me out of context without having commented on or at least read the rest of the thread with little or no reply other than to mock me with your lack of understanding of what we're even talking about.
If you're going to contribute something then fine, if you're not, then don't bother quoting me.
Thanks buddy.
We were talking about what Jesus' attonement has actually achieved.
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John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
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posted August 09, 2007 01:50 PM |
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The Death, don't make posts like that, it achieves nothing.
You quote me out of context without having commented on or at least read the rest of the thread with little or no reply other than to mock me with your lack of understanding of what we're even talking about.
You know actually I read the whole thread. But how could I have done that, because you already know everything.
Quote:
If you're going to contribute something then fine, if you're not, then don't bother quoting me.
Thanks buddy.
We were talking about what Jesus' attonement has actually achieved.
Then what's with that Adam story eh?
oh yeah TA, of course those that agree with you (atheists) are welcome to make useless out-of-topic posts, right? here let me help you find it:
Antipaladin wrote:Quote:
you know shady,lol again..if i was ur nehihboor the first thing i'd be telling u,is
suscribe to the atheist magazin.
there is no gods
bible suck
you lie
yada-yada.
and i'll brainwash you
a lot to do with Jesus that is..
and my post wasn't even useless
besides if you really are interested in what I know, read the other thread (you know which one) 'cause I've explained it there a lot of times.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 09, 2007 02:00 PM |
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dude you're acting like a school boy.
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John says to live above hell.
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angelito
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posted August 09, 2007 02:04 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 15:51, 09 Aug 2007.
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Guys....calm down....keep the spirit....find arguments....don't act personal. Thx.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TheDeath
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posted August 09, 2007 02:37 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 14:41, 09 Aug 2007.
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@TA: Since you have targetted my only post in this thread (which also contained a hint), I'll try to explain my post briefly about that story. In fact, most ideas about the stories in the Bible are based on the thoughts of those people, not their physical pain.
don't forget it's brief:
God warned Adam to not eat from the tree, for it will bring him knowledge of suffering and pain and power (power is something humans always want as well). (you will most probably say it was a 'test', be it your way).
Adam (and Eve actually) both thought about this and were curious as to grasp that 'knowledge' (if you call it that) of pain and, of course, power. Kinda like kids "What does this button do?" you know In fact their curiousity was exploited by the snake who knew how to manipulate them.
Of course their greed made them eat from that tree, because they wanted to feel "how it's like to be God" or something like that. Therefore, it can be concluded that humans don't love God -- if they would, they wouldn't be doing that because God warned them not to do it.
What's worse actually, was that Adam tried to hide from God in shame instead of apologizing and repenting. The 'punishment' that followed was not God's fault nor his 'greedy' power (unlike humans which would do it, if they are given power). It was the humans's (Adam and Eve) own choice. Remember however that everyone is as much human as Adam and Eve were. Therefore we all have desires for greed. What we can do, however, is show a heart full of love and forgiving.
God never wanted man to be perfect, like a robot or a chicken without head. He gave him free will to choose (by the way, God did not program man to act as He wants, this is the main idea of free will), either love God, don't trust him, or sin (implicitly "loving" the Devil, if you can call it that way to make it easier to understand).
Sin is evil, and evil sucks. Death only exists because of the Devil. It is not God's fault. The Devil is the one who was a "murderer from the beginning". God is the one who gives life, restores life, and extends eternal life. The Devil has no 'power' (we, as humans, are so obsessed with that word ) on us unless we let him. God warns us, He teaches us. But we turn our backs to Him, because we choose power and greed, and our curiosity doesn't help at all. We have so choosen Death and Punishment, and we let the Devil take control over us. God loves us all.
I know exactly at what you're thinking right now. If God loves us, then why doesn't he get rid of the Devil?
Well you have to understand the meaning of loving someone. You love someone by doing it with your thoughts and helping the respective person. You do not take away it's freedom. If the respective person (which you love) is a thief, a murderer, and you want to restrict himself and protect him from that 'sin' (by e.g getting rid of the Devil), it's like chaining the respective person and forcing him to act as you want it to. The respective person will spit you. If you truly love him you would let him choose freely, and even forgive him if he comes to you and repents for his sins. This is why God doesn't put us in chains so we never sin. This is what is called true love.
We as humans have fallen into our own greed. We let the Devil take control over us. God loves us and forgives us, if we love him as well and repent with all our hearts, our thoughts. Like I said in my previous post, the thoughts are the most important. If you pray and repent, but think how to kill your neighbour the next day, then it was all just a 'physical' show (so to speak). You don't have to knee or all that stuff as long as you're pure of heart and you truly believe what you say, not just some false words, because the words aren't important, the thoughts are.
I know you're thinking God doesn't answer prayers, well not most of them anyway. The idea here is that God 'replies' to a prayer in His way. The answer will not be the one you might expect. He does so in His way. You can pray for arbitrary things which perhaps aren't meant as 'pure'. God can give you joy and happines. God answers in His way. You may call it coincidence, or delusional minds (dreams), or whatever else.
Remember this was only a brief explanation. Trust me, if you want the whole story, you will have to scroll through a lot of pages of text, and I simply have no intention of writing that here as I have other things to do right now. So now you see how a simple story from the Bible can have such a profound explanation. This is why I always said "metaphors" in the other thread. Hope you know understand why. The 'apple' in the tree was a metaphor, for example. The meaning of that metaphor was explained briefly in this post
But, if you actually want to have a "ha -- you didn't reply, I win" scenario, then fine you won. If that's what you wanted to hear..
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 09, 2007 02:53 PM |
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First I've explained many times that if god is both omniscient and omnipotent then free will is logically impossible, but you've heard it all before.
But forgetting all of that, your interpretation of the story is again speculative and belongs more in the other thread you seem to despise, where speculation and theory belong. This thread is either a) for talking about what's in the bible or b) entirely useless.
Let's hope it's a).
Because the literal story is completely debunked, I mean anyone can see it's nonsense if you look at it that way. Why would god make such a tree? Or the snake?
So I agree that it's a metaphor, like you said.
Even baklava realizes that there wasn't really a guy called Adam and a chick made out of his ribs Even assuming god is real, it's STILL meant to be a metaphor. Those who take it literally (like those who wrote the gospels) are ignorant, however back in those days it's hard to blame them.
You then went on to explain the basic story. I have actually read the bible and have heard the story 1000 times, and yours is no different. Then you talk about free will... then... aha. Here we go.
Quote:
Death only exists because of the Devil. It is not God's fault.
I could take the approach 'everything is gods fault, he created everything' but that again doesn't belong in this thread.
So instead I might actually QUOTE the Bible (god forbid)
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
So there you go. Despite it being horribly sexist, it does directly show that death is god's fault, no matter how you look at it. Disagreeing is creating your own religion.
But then my main point, why I brought up our mate Adam in the first place, is that god gave us this punishment for not listening him to him, being guilty hiding our sins or however you want to butter it up, eating an apple etc etc etc. For original sin, as it is coined properly.
Then Jesus came back to attone original sin, sealing it in blood the way we love it as baklava pointed out. Yet the punishment remains. If you're going to forgive someone, don't keep punishing them!
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John says to live above hell.
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 09, 2007 11:44 PM |
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Quote:
But forgetting all of that, your interpretation of the story is again speculative and belongs more in the other thread you seem to despise, where speculation and theory belong. This thread is either a) for talking about what's in the bible or b) entirely useless.
Let's hope it's a).
Because the literal story is completely debunked, I mean anyone can see it's nonsense if you look at it that way. Why would god make such a tree? Or the snake?
This is perty much sums up the reason why threads about God and the Bible are pointless.
You tell us that our interpretation of the story is speculative and doesn't belong in this thread, yet your interpretation of the story isn't speculative therefore belongs anywhere you want it to.
TA it's my opinion that unless you were alive either during the time Genesis was wrote or during the time Adam and Eve were alive on earth you have absolutely no authority to tell us whether or not the story is literal or metaphorical.
Furthermore, your reasoning prohibits any form of spiritual interaction with the physical world, so your basic assumption is dichotomously opposed with our assumption. For any threads of this nature to continue the basic assumption must addressed fully. (which it can't) The conclusion is based on a matter of faith alone.
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antipaladin
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posted August 09, 2007 11:55 PM |
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if u ask me i would like US all converting into peganism...
as of this moment lets protest bible 
sirously though,shady,
this is what i have to say:
Your smart,good debater,and know how to evoide questions,your hell of a politician. but you are not that good as a preacher. the world has much atheists,and even more non christian theist.
as far as theist,christian,jewish or muslim,its all one b-s for me,i mean 1 god,so what if its yes jesus or no? jesus is only the son,if he did existed.
Athaists,are people who dont belive in god,and for them,any reigliouse argument will be false,and for a reason.
Religion is NOT FACT. CANNOT BE ARGUED IN CORT OF LAW.
Law is above the religon
the religion is not the law.
ihave my own comendmets:
1:Act to people the way you want them to act you.
2:Live and Let live
3:Seek the truth whever it is.
4:Love whats exists and exist to love.
5:Keep the plenet clean and safe.
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types in obscure english
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 10, 2007 06:24 AM |
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Quote:
This is perty much sums up the reason why threads about God and the Bible are pointless.
You tell us that our interpretation of the story is speculative and doesn't belong in this thread, yet your interpretation of the story isn't speculative therefore belongs anywhere you want it to.
It's not my interpretation we're talking about, we're talking about what's written in the book, on the pages. 
Quote:
TA it's my opinion that unless you were alive either during the time Genesis was wrote or during the time Adam and Eve were alive on earth you have absolutely no authority to tell us whether or not the story is literal or metaphorical.
I'm not telling anyone what to believe. I'm stating my opinion as much as you are. All I said was the literal story is even more ridiculous than the meaning behind the metaphor. If it is one.
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John says to live above hell.
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Doomforge
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posted August 10, 2007 07:38 AM |
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Quote:
First I've explained many times that if god is both omniscient and omnipotent then free will is logically impossible, but you've heard it all before.
I did explained many times that it is possible without contradictions. The key is how we understand the words omniscent and omnipotent. Check your God thread, TA.
just my two cents.
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baklava
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posted August 10, 2007 02:55 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 14:56, 10 Aug 2007.
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Quote:
You wanted them to be full of speculation and Jesus defence?
No, what I wanted was a civilized discussion about the value of the Bible as a philosophical and mythological book in the context of time it was written in, and how it still has a point that can be seen, even besides it's constant editing by the Church.
Without attacking Jesus, trying to prove how some irrelevant parts of the stories didn't happen (like it bloody matters for the point of the book itself), taking quotes out of context and overall making the thread a clone of your pointless and painfully time-consuming "i gave up" thread.
Now; the main reason nothing can be discussed with you is this:
Quote:
Even baklava realizes that there wasn't really a guy called Adam and a chick made out of his ribs
'Even baklava'. You consider all people who remotely disagree with unquestioned atheism (and I'm not even so religious) inferior to you. And please don't start with "it's the religious people that are intolerant" a.k.a. "they started it" kindergarten crap. The problem with most atheists is that they judge all believers based on what the leaders of organized religion did; while completely ignoring their own atheist fanatism. I can't even remember how many times I repeated that. Similar with a lot of believers, who dislike all atheists cause of their beliefs.
Until you realise that, threads like these are always going to end up this way.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 10, 2007 03:37 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
You wanted them to be full of speculation and Jesus defence?
No, what I wanted was a civilized discussion about the value of the Bible as a philosophical and mythological book in the context of time it was written in, and how it still has a point that can be seen, even besides it's constant editing by the Church.
Without attacking Jesus, trying to prove how some irrelevant parts of the stories didn't happen (like it bloody matters for the point of the book itself), taking quotes out of context and overall making the thread a clone of your pointless and painfully time-consuming "i gave up" thread.
Well if you wanted to make those few points, make a speech or something.
Yes, the Bible is a mythological book. Yes, it had values in the context of the time it was written in. Yes, it still has a point that can be seen, even besides it's constant editing by the church.
I was trying to discuss why it's a myth, why it's values are obselete, and it's point ludicrous, and agreed with the constant editing by the church. Yet because I don't hang a cross around my neck this seems as if it's all in bad taste, or something.
Saying I was taking quotes out of context is actually kinda offensive to me because I wasn't making this thread into a quote war. If anyone wants a quotewar I'll give them a run for their money in my turf, but I'm not going to impose it on you It's when people start taking apart my post piece by piece, what am I meant to do, not respond?
Quote:
Now; the main reason nothing can be discussed with you is this:
It seems it is you who doesn't want a discussion.
Quote:
'Even baklava'. You consider all people who remotely disagree with unquestioned atheism (and I'm not even so religious) inferior to you. And please don't start with "it's the religious people that are intolerant" a.k.a. "they started it" kindergarten crap. The problem with most atheists is that they judge all believers based on what the leaders of organized religion did; while completely ignoring their own atheist fanatism. I can't even remember how many times I repeated that. Similar with a lot of believers, who dislike all atheists cause of their beliefs.
Until you realise that, threads like these are always going to end up this way.
Well I thought you would take more kindly to your beloved sarcasm and a contextual quip of friendly competitive nature but clearly not. No need to take offence.
Now my atheism is not unquestioned, and is not even solid. I was born, raised and schooled as an Anglican, went to church and prayed, and read the bible cover to cover by the age of 8. I've heard all the hymns and the scriptures, yet now I'm old enough to make up my mind. I think that if a God gave us intellectual minds he would want us to use them, to question things, and not just accept them, which is what I strive to do.
And you can't really put the bad note on atheists in the argument. All atheists can do is find religion foolish. Religious people, regardless of how tolerant, have the constant threat the atheist people WILL BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY if we don't agree with them. This is hardly on par with a little frown. It's always o.k. for someone to say "I believe in Jesus the Savior" or "I believe in the Lord our God, and if you don't, you'll just go to hell."
People will say that's good, I respect that. It's the 21st Century.
But when someone comes out and says "I don't believe that there is a creator", then people are like whoa, settle down there, don't want to get offensive. Because people like to hold on to things.
I don't hate you baklava, for your beliefs or any other reason, but I can tell that this thread caused alot of bad blood that wasn't there before (or I haven't noticed).
Then again, maybe theists just don't like 'these kind of threads', because they always lose
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John says to live above hell.
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Doomforge
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posted August 10, 2007 03:40 PM |
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it's getting hot here..
Well I don't think that TA needs my defense, Baklava, but.. After all... imagine you meet a guy who believes in flying fluffy fridges singing madonna's songs in suahili. In other words, in complete crap. Would you be serious trying to convince him that he believes in something non-existent and utterly stupid? Would you consider that saying he believes in crap can hurt his feelings? I guess not.. Because it would seem so ridiculous to you that you couldn't really remain serious .
I know it's a bad example since God, religion and such is something entirely different than believeing in flying fridges, but I guess you got the big picture.
TA feels like that when he discusses with us, I think. For him, we're just a bunch of guys believeing in myths, absurds, contradictions.. not any better than Greek mythology (or even worse). Hard to blame him for that..
That of course doesn't mean I agree with him (cuz I don't  ) but I understand his point of view.
Atheists feel wiser and superior to us, yes. What's the big deal.. I don't care. It's something I accepted ages ago.
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angelito
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posted August 10, 2007 04:48 PM |
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...Atheists feel wiser and superior to us, yes. What's the big deal..
I never liked generalism. And I for sure do NOT feel superior to anyone. Neither does EVERY atheist. I guess at least the same amount of THEISTS feel superior to ATHEISTS as it is vice versa. Only because someone believes in some kind of fantasy book (no offense) doesn't mean he/she is dumb, an idiot, retarded etc... He/she just has a different point of view concerning to ONE issue in the world, and that'S ok for me.
Baklava....you really should try to stand criticism. Only because u dislike TA's opinion, doesn't mean you have to change your temper in the way you did in your last post. The opening post of this thread clearly says what this thread is about: The Bible! And of course there are intersections between a thread called "The Bible" and "Believing in god". This thread is not about religion itslef, but about the bible. So when TA states and quotes passages out of the bible which are either not accurate or even false, it may hurt those who do believe 100% in the bible, but that's not TA's fault, but the one's who wrote this book.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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antipaladin
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posted August 10, 2007 09:22 PM |
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I know it's a bad example since God, religion and such is something entirely different than believeing in flying fridges, but I guess you got the big picture.
not such a big differnce imo..
Quote:
but the one's who wrote this book.
dont you prefer reading the old testament? its soo much more intersting then the bible.
i mean acording to my mind bible is the new testaement and the old one.
the new sounds more falsly becouse i was brought up as jew in jewish femily and i am jewish acording to blood,but not in belife.
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types in obscure english
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baklava
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posted August 10, 2007 10:23 PM |
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Well I thought you would take more kindly to your beloved sarcasm and a contextual quip of friendly competitive nature but clearly not. No need to take offence.
Didn't take offence, just tried to prove the point that atheists find theists less inteligent...  Doomforge had a strong point on that matter though
Quote:
It seems it is you who doesn't want a discussion.
The funny thing is, that's actually right I've grown somewhat tired of discussions recently, so I wanted some relaxed talk about the Bible like you would talk about, say, Lord of the Rings or something.
But now that I think about it, if people killed each other for 2000 years over Lord of the Rings, I guess discussions about it would be more tense too...
Quote:
I don't hate you baklava, for your beliefs or any other reason, but I can tell that this thread caused alot of bad blood that wasn't there before (or I haven't noticed).
Lol I know, no one hates anyone here (we're all brethren by Heroes after all), I was just saying that there can hardly be a neutral discussion on this. And bad blood just comes to the surface sometimes... That's the syndrome of mankind :/
Religious beliefs are like music tastes really. And although we tend to think that one side is wrong and the other is right, since we can't prove it, it comes down to what people prefer.
Meh.
It appears I can't stand criticism. Very well then, I'll return to the discussion as always, just to prove that I can I'm not in the mood but what da heck
Besides,
Quote:
Then again, maybe theists just don't like 'these kind of threads', because they always lose
I'll take that as an invitation 
Now uhm... Where were we actually?
Ah yes, why God continued punishing people after Jesus...
That's at least fun to respond.
There can be a few theories on that matter (assuming many different points of view):
1) Punishments remain in the temporary physical plane only. When people go to heaven there are no punishments there.
2) God, seeing as humanity bent down to false prophets etc after Jesus, decided it was best to keep the punishment as it was until mankind saw its own wrong doings.
3) Since God already divided our material life and our afterlife, it was impossible to just undo it all and return us to the first ways - not cause it would be impossible for him/her/it but because we wouldn't be able to stand the transition. We were so changed that we couldn't endure such metamorphosis.
3) God stopped punishing us indeed. But we continued punishing ourselves, through wars, hatred etc.
4) Forgiving sins is one thing; returning the Earth to the state of the Garden of Eden and bringing us into position to sin in its soil again would cause the forgiveness to be pointless, and an even greater punishment exacted upon us defiling Eden again.
5) Finally realizing how hopeless we are, God took off and made a new Earth somewhere else in the universe, and a new race on it; but he didn't have the heart to destroy us so he left us dwell here on this planet until the planet itself dies or we exterminate ourselves.
There's more but these were the first to come to my mind. As you see, there are always some solutions for why would God do something, though we sometimes can't find it. That is one of the messages of the book, right? The Lord works in mysterious ways.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
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posted August 11, 2007 12:54 AM |
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Interesting thread, shame it's my english is so poor...
I do not know Bible perfect but I can see now that some 'theists' are full of hate like ages before.
Remember about milions of people killed 'in the name of God'.
That was only my 2 cents...
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 11, 2007 02:36 AM |
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Quote:
Interesting thread, shame it's my english is so poor...
I do not know Bible perfect but I can see now that some 'theists' are full of hate like ages before.
Remember about milions of people killed 'in the name of God'.
That was only my 2 cents...
Some atheists are full of hate and have killed millions in whatever name they felt like. I don't see how that's relevant.
Every Christian who ever lived was born the same as every atheist. Born into this world hating God and every desire since birth is selfish and evil. Becoming a Christian is an after birth decision that's made, and those individuals are still capable of commiting terrible crimes just the same.
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This thread is pages long: 
