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| Thread: Errant Spellcasting! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted October 30, 2001 11:40 AM |
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Errant Spellcasting!
Spells are such an assured way of attacking the enemy. Unless they have resistance as a skill or some other innate ability, it's as easy as picking up your spell book, reading out the required incantations and
BOOOOOM!!!!!!
There goes my Implosion spell thank you very much, 1200 damage regardless of the enemy's defence stats.
Be a bit more scarier though in HoMM4 as a 'novice' spellcaster to have spells backfire on you and accidentally strike friendly units....
Random chances of lets say... 10% at lower levels of spellcasting to have a spell misfire and either not work or strike the wrong unit haven't been discussed yet, or at least I don't think so. It's so frustrating to know that even in Homm3, a hero like Crag Hack with expert offence skill and a high attack rating still has to rely on percentage damage to inflict some pain on the enemy, whilst the spellcaster with a 500 dollar book and a few trips to a guild that cost 1000 dollars per level to build can cast spell after spell after spell with inerring accuracy and perfect damage every single time.
It's about time HoMM4 turned the tables on the reliability of spells. I don't think it should be a piece of cake to cast high damage level 5 spells round after round anymore. There needs to be a tension element to it all. I feel a little bit sick knowing someone can cast Implo on me for the next 12 rounds and if I pull out a calculator quick enough, I can calculate the 12500 hitpoints damage that I'm going to cop and there's not a DAMN thing I can do about it except try and caste protection from earth. Still not as much solace as seeing a Hero accidentally cast a spell like that on HIMSELF!
*smile*
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted October 30, 2001 03:30 PM |
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This would lend a degree of randomness and "luck" to a game that normally requires skill and tactics. While it may make the game interesting, is it really necessary to bring luck into the equation? I prefer it better when you can beat your opponents purely out of skill, or outwitting them. Not when luck foils your plans. Perhaps in an RTS or something where consequences aren't as bad. Or perhaps limit this "miscasting" to barbarians and other unskilled casters. Spells don't miss, so you can rely on them, just like unit attacks don't miss. If missing was possible, it wouldn't really make the game fun. Perhaps bad luck could lead to misses?
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Holger
Adventuring Hero
King of Silence
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posted October 30, 2001 03:55 PM |
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I almost completely agree with Jenova. And it has something to do with the "bad luck misses" which is similar to the poor morale in H3. It seems a bit absurd to me that 3000 skeletons can miss an attack. Or 40 crusaders have bad morale. I mean - imagine 3000 skeletons make an attack and all of them making a blow in the wind!? It would cause quite a breeze!!!
Bad morale/bad luck should inflict the number of creatures participating in the attack.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 30, 2001 04:33 PM |
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Spells won't be as reliable in Heroes 4. Now your Hero can freeze in terror and lose the turn. (The statistics of that was very low in Heroes 3 as long as you had 2-3 stacks or more.)
Also I suspect that to launch a magic attack you need a free line of sight to the target. (Making you unable to select just any target.)
Since Heroes 4 will offer 100% Resistance at GM level I kind of pity the mage who tries to take on a barbarian. You can still enhance your values but the barbarian is likely to make mincemeat of the mage if they face each in single combat.
About the very high damage spells. They'll be gone with the attribute Spellpower. My guess is that the damaging spells will now vary much less in the damage they can cause. Maranthea said as much about the high-damage spells in one of the interviews.
About Luck... It might be a nice twist if the Luck affected the damage caused by a spell. Good Luck reduced the damage and Bad Luck increased the damage. That is Luck is handled the same way for magical damage as for combat damage.
I'm not sure if it should be the Mage's Luck or the Luckless target's Luck which should be used (assumed target's Luck above)... Perhaps best to use the difference between the two.
I don't believe in total misses due to Luck. That's why you have Morale to decide if you're going to lose the turn.
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted October 30, 2001 04:51 PM |
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Are you talking about...
That there should be some sort percent in which different actions like spellcasting works?
Like in RPG games?
I'm not sure would it fit into HoMM.
It would make things really hard for spellcasters compared to might heroes as Djive described.
However if the game is going more into RPG direction and mass destruction spells are made powerful enough maybe that can be considered same as with other skills as well withing heroes.
Not bad idea but I can't see right now why we would really need it.
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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UnkaHaakon
Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
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posted October 31, 2001 12:19 AM |
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Actually, it might be kind of interesting to see a chance for a spell to misfire (perhaps horribly) IF it's one that normally you couldn't cast.
For example, say you're a low level Order mage, and somehow a random map feature (maybe one of Djive's Strangers) teaches you a really nasty 5th level Chaos spell. Suddenly you have two problems:
1. You don't know squat about Chaos magic
2. You only have Order magic at Advanced level, so 2nd level spells are all you can handle even in your own school.
So, assuming you have the spellpoints for it ...if you cast it, there 's probably a darn good chance of something going terribly wrong.
Now, let's assume a low level Sorcerer from the Asylum gets the same spell. He 's got a basic grasp of Chaos magic, but this spell is still way out of his league, again leading to possible disaster if he casts it.
::sigh:: But, I imagine the way the designers solved this is that the spell will simply be unusable.
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Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted October 31, 2001 02:51 AM |
bonus applied. |
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Perhaps an artifact, that is similar to the globe of anti-magic (whatever it was called in H2) where both sides in battle will have random effects or targets when casting spells (instead of neither side being able to cast).
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StormWarning
Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
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posted November 01, 2001 09:52 PM |
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Unk, I like your idea. It kind of bothered me that a Barbarian with no Wisdom in H3 could cast Implosion if he got a scroll with it (that happened to me once). It would be nice to see spellcasters attempting to use a scroll that would be beyond their ability (or out of their school of expertise) having occasional problems. 
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The calm before the storm is about to end.
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UnkaHaakon
Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
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posted November 02, 2001 04:32 PM |
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Offtopic: Bonus applied
Proof that a bonus post doesn't necessarily have to be all that long to express a top notch idea. Jenova's idea for an artifact here is, as far as I can tell, brand new, and might I add, inspiringly wicked. 
The more I thought about it, the more I kept grinning. This morning I sprang the idea on a friend I play hotseat with. He literally sat there speechless for a minute before saying "That's just ... WRONG!" Then he grinned as well.
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Zune
Adventuring Hero
of Tatalia
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posted November 04, 2001 11:02 PM |
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I like Unk's idea. You shouldn't be able to learn a spell 100% correctly if you're far from having the knowledge of such spells. It should have a chance to backfire on your own armies (or hit an enemy creature if the spell is beneficial). If a hero "miscasts" a spell, maybe the armies should get decreased morale as well, because they no longer trust in their hero's spellcasting abilities?
The artifact idea is... well, funny, at least. Maybe there could be one such artifact for each magic school?
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You can have as many hit points as you care,
you're dead when facing the Mighty Stare!
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted November 05, 2001 01:45 AM |
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that would make magic abilities even more worth choosing... oh, about Jenova's idea... it's kinda wicked... I like it!!!
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted November 05, 2001 04:21 AM |
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So should there be a 'spellcasting experience' score? I mean if the old adage of 'practice makes perfect' is true and we feel that perfect spellcasting time after time is hard to believe, then should there be a rating for spellcasters? Whenever they cast a spell, their experience rises a little (this is completely independant of overall XP though). Not enough experience, you chance casting a spell that misfires....
Mind you, something like 'casting experience' would effectively render a skill like Wisdom useless...
*smile*
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Gimmickless
Promising
Known Hero
Cannon Maker
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posted November 05, 2001 04:35 AM |
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Compounding on Shae's idea.
Y'know, if HoMM4 went towards pen'n'paper RPGs even further, then the Magic Experience would be the ONLY way higher level spells were cast. Of course, you'd have the keep the numbers relatively low to keep the system from being totally lopsided. (Like I'd need to cast an arrow 15 times before I can blind somebody! Yeah right!) But leveling up two or three times to cast Implosion is also downright silly.
Needless to say, this could also cause a lot of specialization features. The more you cast, the less it costs, anyone?
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Lyricist's Lounge Champion Wanna test your skills?
Johnny The Ball:... too long to display...
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted November 06, 2001 01:23 AM |
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Yes I understand that it does eventually get to a point where complexity can cloud the true enjoyment of a game, but I think honestly that the spellcasting in HoMM is nowhere near as potentially enjoyable as is melee'ing with opponents. It's complete accuracy bothers me to some degree and I think that there needs to be some sort of innacuracy that is related directly to skill. Not knowing how the level upping skill choices actually work (does wisdom get offered only after you've reached level 4, for example), it feels like anyone can become expert in magic casting based upon what choices you are offered. If I get offered wisdom enough times, I can cast armageddon.
Should it be that easy?
*smile*
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted November 06, 2001 08:18 AM |
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The Problem...
I can say I have played many RPG's and...
If you try to balance something into bases that "it's too easy" like magic here. Doesn't it make those might heroes even more powerful again?
I don't know what is so big deal in this whole thing if the magic in HoMMIV isn't as powerful as in HoMM3.
If it would be as powerful it may cause trouble as there could be more than one hero possible using magic in combat...
So if we start restricting certain type of characters like spellcasters with some sort of system that same should happen with other type of heroes too.
Otherwise the might heroes are doing it "too easy" when magic heroes and thinking how to cast that first blind.
Play some RPG where magic is hard to get like through levels and you notice that quickly might heroes are like killing machines and magic heroes are struggling to get some spell to work.
Why I haven't really warmed the idea is that there should be same logic with all the skills and not make game harder to certain herotypes unless they are overpowered and I think magic heroes aren't in HoMM.
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted November 14, 2001 03:45 PM |
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How many games have I played where the battle between two mains was dependant not on the different of attack and defence levels, but more so on the difference in spellcasting ability? I've played many many games where no matter how powerful my army was, the other player was able to keep me going with repeated round after round of level 5 spell casting.
Now I don't mind being outdone with spells, what sickens me sometimes is the hole in my stomach that I get when an enemy can summon 500 water elementals in 7 rounds of battle. Five hundred!
At 25hp a piece, that's an added 12500 hitpoints worth of damage that I have to deal with.
Fine, I can cast that spell too you might say. Fair enough, more to my point I say. I shouldn't be able to summon that many earth ele's either without something going wrong somewhere...
The odds of probability dictate that spell casting of such high level round after round after round is bound to have some mistakes.
Combat is based on dice rolls. Damage scores are done like this. Why aren't spells?
They are the only thing in the game that is 100% reliable and this needs to change for Homm4.
*smile*
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 14, 2001 04:22 PM |
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U might be right in HoMM4.
But imho the spellcasters have it tough enough in Heroes 3 as it is. The last couple of times Ive tried to field a good magic-user against a good TOH player, Ive been riped apart by them having either recanters, or pendant of negativity.
So lately I usually stick with might heroes. Its tough getting both wisdom and the magic skill u need to get that 1 good spell u usually get stuck with in guild. But on the other hand.
If my opponent can summon 500 waters, then he must have high enough power, that the game must be a deserved win  .
Otherwise might heroes just have it to easy tearing through the poor mages army.
Mass haste and u can kill allmost all his army in one or 2 rounds, leaving room for him to cast only one or 2 spells.
If one of those spells misfired, well then there would be no chance in hell for him to win.
Just my 2 cents, which aint much.
Defreni
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StormWarning
Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
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posted November 15, 2001 12:54 AM |
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Having spells just go wrong at random, if they're spells that you have the level of expertise to cast, is bad, unless there's a similar chance that a ranged attack misses completely. But giving spells a damage/effectiveness range (Magic Arrow does 50-150 damage at a certain level of Conjuration, Summon ____ gives you 20-30 ____s at a certain level of Herbalism, Death Ripple does 40-80 damage at a certain level of Occultism, etc.) would be excellent. That way spells would be a lot more like physical attacks and a little less unbalancing. Maybe Bless and Curse could even affect spell power - maximum (or minimum) effectiveness for a spell, or instead maybe treat the spell as if you had a higher level of the power skill in that school.
DISCLAIMER: All numbers in the above post are made up. Don't complain that they're too powerful/too weak/whatever.
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The calm before the storm is about to end.
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StormWarning
Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
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posted November 16, 2001 12:38 AM |
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You already can
At least in the two expansions for H3, you can disable specific spells in the mage guild and even turn off all spells in them (SoD comes with a map made this way - "Heroes of Might not Magic").
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The calm before the storm is about to end.
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shaowei
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 16, 2001 05:16 PM |
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I don't like the idea
In Heroes 4, the magic heroes will have a tough time living through the battle as they will have less hitpoints, and then they also have to get those damaging spells. If you want to save a hero, you have to move him, when is he supposed to cast then? In addition, you want his spells to misfire as well Poor magic heroes...
I think the idea is quite ok for HOMM3, but not for HOMM4.
Oh yes I play mostly might hero except when playing stringhold - then I take battlemage Dessa - they are mighty heroes anyway.
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