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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Ultimates chart
Thread: Ultimates chart This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Radox
Radox


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2007 09:46 PM
Edited by Radox at 21:48, 22 Sep 2007.

Ultimates chart

I decided to make a "chart" of the 7 ultimates in Heroes 5 and list them starting from the best and counting to the most useless So here I go:

1. Nature's luck (Ludicrous! Your enemy will basically have to battle an army 100% more deadly than the one he sees in the "info screen" before engaging you)
2. Absolute protection (Theoretically, exactly as strong as Nature's luck, but I placed it on 2nd place because it requires more crappy skills as prerequisites)
3. Howl of terror (Well, what better than your opponent "freezing in panic" every 2nd move?)
4. Urgash's call (Very useful for imbuing your army immediatelly and unpredictably)
5. Arcane omniscience (Having all the spells reminisces me of Aurora Borealis - the Conflux Grail structure from H3. It was ultra-useful back then, it is ultra-useful now - you can switch gears in mid-battle)
6. Rage of the elements (One of the less useful ultimates - elemental chains damage is not *THAT* high percentage of the whole speel damage, so it doesn't need to be amplified - the whole SD does! Maybe Rage would be good if it doubled the whole SD...)
7. Unstoppable charge (Errr...who put this crap into my game? Even casting Retaliation strike sucks, because it wastes you casting 1 spell... And now this? As if their damage is high - tripling it doesn't make things much better. I think by the time you become eligible to learn Unstoppable charge, you no longer need it as your army is big enough. I think that Knight's ultimate must have been something like imbuing your troops with ... +6 morale, maybe?)


Well, it's now your turn to sort them up. I hope you like the idea
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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted September 22, 2007 10:19 PM

just a note natures luck is the most useful one admittedly but not THAT useful. since youll probs already have 5 luck by then
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 22, 2007 10:41 PM

Still 50% is half as good as 100% chance for luck. Not THAT useful?
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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted September 22, 2007 11:43 PM

not THAT useful as in the army isnt 100% stronger
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 22, 2007 11:50 PM

Maybe not but it's a killer anyway considering sylvans multi-attacking units with high initiative. Now consider familiar ground in a battle on grass and it's a massacre. This setup can win you the battle in 1-2 turns if you count avenger.
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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 23, 2007 12:10 AM
Edited by Homer171 at 00:13, 23 Sep 2007.

Well i would short them like this:

1. Absolute protection - Strongest ultimate in the game imo. Nature's luck is mirror image of this skill. Both are excellent but like said Ranger often have 3 - 5 luck already and enemy luck is very rarely below 0. This is how i see it: Absolute protection decreases enemies luck by -10 and Natures luck increases your luck by 5 - 7. I'll rate the skill 10/10p

2. Nature's Luck - I had this once enjoyed it big deal whit my Dragons and Hunters. Id say +50-70% to damage output. In the end game perhaps the most powerful skill when you can hit fast and hard. Still while you have 'useless' luck skill the perks are quite useful. Elven Luck will even more boost those luck rolled attacks. 10/10p

3. Arcane Omniscience - Without doubt a great skill. It has little same problems as Nature's Luck. You don't benefit from the learned magic schools when you get all spells on expert (well maybe not those mass spells). Having all spells on expert sure sounds nice but in the end fight you probably don't need that many schools anyway. Don't know haven't really used more than 2 schools once but Buffing, Cursing, Conjuring and then Destructing not forgetting MotW sure sounds nice! 9/10p

4. Urgash's Call - Extremely handy. I like the Swarming Gate skill and if you are lucky you can really surprise your enemy whit two fast big stacks of Nightmares. Unfortunate to get Gate Master you need horrible skill tree! Very good ultimate you can even like the requirement skills in this one! Could boost the gated stack imo, well it's good as it is! 9/10p

5. Howl of Terror - Not that impressed aim afraid. Sounds great and all but in the end it's just Mass Sorrow! All other ultimate skills works automatically why do you need to cast this one? No mana cost is nice but i rather start the battle whit mass curses or berserks. Now that we have Necro mark the skill is even more useless. It has it uses sometimes. 7/10p

6. Rage of the Elements - Elemetal Chain damage is not that great (unless you have 10 Dungeons) Better choice would have been +50% to Embowered spells damage imo! Never had it cause of the hideous build! 5/10p

7. Unstoppable Charge - Lousy ultimate. And again you need to cast it to work! Still i can picture Knight using this skill. Ever run out of mana in last battle whit Knight? I know i have. What could be better way than using this to my beloved Paladin stacks. I have always laugh at this skill but hey it can kill those annoying Trents and Magmas easier. 4/10p


Some ultimas are bit harder to get and ultimas whit stupid build up of course lowers the skill value a bit. It's good that we will have new skill tree on ultimas on next expansion.
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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted September 23, 2007 12:12 AM

I cant help thinking that Urgash call is Super powerful, with the right hero(Swarming gating, gate master, Hellfire and maybe Swift gating and Teleport assault for them Pitlords) When you gate those Devils, Nightmares, Pit lords and Ceberus.. And they come with 50%+ more creatures.. You will be screwed, I know this is dream thinking ... but still?
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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 23, 2007 12:18 AM

I don't like Gate Keeper special heroes that much but yeah they can become rather useful if the Urgash's Call will be easier to get in the future. Whit Swarming Gate you get 100% of units easily
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 23, 2007 12:50 AM

Quote:
5. Howl of Terror - Not that impressed aim afraid. Sounds great and all but in the end it's just Mass Sorrow! All other ultimate skills works automatically why do you need to cast this one? No mana cost is nice but i rather start the battle whit mass curses or berserks. Now that we have Necro mark the skill is even more useless. It has it uses sometimes. 7/10p


I think it's kind of interesting that Howl Of Terror probably marks the only Ultimate Ability that's actually close to being ballanced: It's usefull and gives you a quite unique feature (-6 Morale is A LOT), but also costs your Hero a turn to activate, which secures it from being totally über [like Nature's Luck]. The skill combination leading to this skill is actually useful, meaning that you can obtain it as the cherry on top of the pie without having to sacrifice a whole game just to obtain the skill [like Arcane Omniscience].




My suggestion for a redesign of the Ultimates would look something like this:

Nature's Luck: Allows Luck to progress to +10, and provides a +3 Luck bonus.

Dwarven Misfortune: Dampens enemy Luck by -5.

Spirit of Light: Allows Morale to progress to +10, and provides a +3 Morale bonus.

Spirit of Terror: Dampens enemy Morale by -5 (or alternatively, could remain unchanged).

Arcane Mastery: [Requirements: Sorcery + any two Schools of Magic.] Teaches Hero all spells in the school he masters and grants him all benefits of all three basic abilities of these schools.

Rage of the Elements: Decreases Magic Resistance by 25 % and doubles Elemental damage from Elemental vission. Also reduces mana cost of Empowered Spells to 150 % of normal Mana cost(?).

Urgash' Call: No changes.
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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted September 23, 2007 09:24 AM

I really like what you did with Natures Luck and Unstopable charge seems... Natures Luck is not so überpowerfull anymore and unstopable charge is not a joke anymore.
But then again i allways find -/+5 kind of low for an ultimate considering you have artifacts that give -2 penalties for Moral/Luck. As your army usually has a base moral of 2 and maybe you get lucky and there was an adventure thingy to raise your moral before the fight or you have an artifact (thats not to uncommon is it?) then you end up in a fight with +3 maybe even 4 moral (without leadership). And then an ultimatedecreases it not -1/2 and if your lucky to -3. Now I may underestimate -3 moral but I dont consider it really powerfull as I personally think that an Ultimate should be something that really gives you and edge over the oponnent (not as much as Ultimate Luck/Protetion) now if we would say that the ultimate would reduce the moral to a fixed -4/5... that would be more like it for me personally...

But maybe I understand the purpose of a ultimate skill wrong.

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WarLore
WarLore


Famous Hero
servant of urgash
posted September 23, 2007 09:28 AM

my list

1.absolute protection enemy luck is always negative,how that cant be useful,also these skills what you need to get it,is also useful

2.natures luck it is really fun to hear "kooh" for every attack

3.how of terror really nice skill too

4.urgash call nasty thing

5.arcane  omniscience i got it once and it didnt work

6.rage of elements not so useful and those skills what it need

7.unstoppable charge useless most times
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted September 23, 2007 09:47 AM

Natures Luck Always having a lucky strike, how can this one be bad?  With the strong ranged units this can be really deadly.  Throw a mass bless or similar on them and watch the fun. The downside?  Unlike Absolute Protection, does not actually do anything to protect your troops (well besides killing more enemies so they don't hurt your guys as much). Although I like Sylvan, I have to put this no.2.

Absolute Protection. Mirror image of Natures Luck.  Your enemies always have bad luck, and that means your troops take less damage.  Meaning they live longer, to deal more damage themselves. During town defense the person who has this is going to be really hard to get past.  I'd put this no.1, but only by a hair

how of terror With all the +morale items and leadership, this one doesn't impress me as much.  Sorry, I'd rate it one of, if not the, lowest.

urgash call I don't like gating creatures, unless I am the one doing it.  This one is sort of situational, but can really be dangerous.  It's usefulness actually ranges from no.1 to last.

arcane  omniscience Pretty useless to be honest.  By the time you get it the spells are not so great, and there are better things to go after.

Rage of elements Still wondering what this one is good for at all.  As an ultimate it lacks ... a lot.  

unstoppable charge Well, IF you have a lot of paladins, and IF you have the hero that buffs paladins, this one can cause a lot of havoc.  Pretty useless tho.
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Gil-galad
Gil-galad


Known Hero
High King of Noldor
posted September 23, 2007 10:21 AM

Absolute Protection is of course a very good ultimate ability. The enemy always have bad luck and you can have Expert Luck too. Really great.

Just one note: In the HoF campaigns I got Absolute Protection with Wulfstan. That was soooo cool. But when I attacked King Throlgar I lost I had allready completed the campaigns one time before and then Wulfstan had Expert Light Magic and Luck. I attacked Throlgar and won

Conclusion: I like Natures Luck better. I prefer to have always luck myself instead of decreasing the enemies luck.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 23, 2007 11:18 AM

Quote:
I really like what you did with Natures Luck and Unstopable charge seems... Natures Luck is not so überpowerfull anymore and unstopable charge is not a joke anymore.
But then again i allways find -/+5 kind of low for an ultimate considering you have artifacts that give -2 penalties for Moral/Luck. As your army usually has a base moral of 2 and maybe you get lucky and there was an adventure thingy to raise your moral before the fight or you have an artifact (thats not to uncommon is it?) then you end up in a fight with +3 maybe even 4 moral (without leadership). And then an ultimatedecreases it not -1/2 and if your lucky to -3. Now I may underestimate -3 moral but I dont consider it really powerfull as I personally think that an Ultimate should be something that really gives you and edge over the oponnent (not as much as Ultimate Luck/Protetion) now if we would say that the ultimate would reduce the moral to a fixed -4/5... that would be more like it for me personally...

But maybe I understand the purpose of a ultimate skill wrong.


Hmmm ... I don't think anybody can say exactly what the purpose of the Ultimates should be - I guess that's just a matter of what's decided by the game designers. Personally, I don't like the concept of über-powerful ultimates [like Nature's Luck and Absolute Protection] because you will have to make them exceedingly difficult to obtain to retain balance, which will make them useless in reality. When an extremely powerful skill like Nature's Luck becomes very accessible (as will be the case in TotE) it bodes disaster for me, because I think that build will dominate the game completely, which will make the game less fun both in terms of playing against it and playing with it (you will always need to choose this path to optimize your options).

That is why I would prefer ultimates that are less powerful and more accessible - in that way, they will come into play, but will not win you the game instantly just because you have it. Increasing Luck/Morale cap and providing a +3 bonus should be that for me, very powerful, but not instoppable. A -5 penalty to Luck or Morale would also be very powerful (perhaps even too much) - but would not be impossible to counter, had you Leadership or Luck.

On a side note, I have always favored what you would call Synergy Skills rather than Ultimate Skills. The idea behind this is the following: Instead of having only one Ultimate available to each class, make all Ultimates available to all classes - for instance, the only real counter for Nature's Luck currently is Absolute Defence, and why shall only Dwarves have this option? Rather, one should make the Ultimates into synergy skills, that became available once you had certain combinations of 3 or 4 skills, for instance:
  Luck + Light Magic + Logistics -> Luck of Nature
  Leadership + Light Magic + Attack -> Spirit of Light
  Enlightenment + Dark Magic + Defence -> Spirit of Despair
  War Machines + Destructive Magic + Defence -> Luck of Destruction
Obviously, depending on which class you play, some of these builds would be easier for you to obtain than others, but given the right circumstances, it might allow you to adapt to your opponent. Anyway, that's a slightly different story.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 23, 2007 11:22 AM

The ultimates should be racial-based, like urgash's call. Not some stupid imba luck 100% or so..

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WarLore
WarLore


Famous Hero
servant of urgash
posted September 23, 2007 12:03 PM

what then should be drawf or elven ultimate? drawfen ultimate ability some kinda all 1-3 runes are actived automactilly to start of combat and lvl4-5 runes can activite without wasting resources,elven hmm can choose five favoures enemies and can chance on the map no need avengers guild
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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted September 23, 2007 12:11 PM

@ Alc
I wasn't trying to define what a Ultimate skill should be.
And of course you are right with all your reasons why an ultimate shouldn't be easy to obtain and überpowerfull. But I think that Ultimate skills should only be for long games. Because it is the ULTIMATE skill of an race (which is where I fully agree with Doomforge that the Ultimate should be racial so that it actually has something to do with the Faction)!! I mean for me the idea of an ultimate skill is to have something that gives you and real advantage over the one who hasn't got the ultimate which is why it needs to be difficult to obtain. That said Absolute Protection and Natures Luck don't give you an real advantage they automatically win you the game! That is not what an ultimate skill should do.

About your idea that you should make them more accesable and allow them for all factions... Sorry but I reaaaally don't agree with that. Prehaps you could make semi-ultimates that require 2-3 abilities and are available for all races. But ultimates should still be racial.

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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted September 23, 2007 12:59 PM

Quote:
The ultimates should be racial-based, like urgash's call. Not some stupid imba luck 100% or so..


I actually agree with this, although it's hard to implement in some cases. Like with the elves. Some races though clearly specialize in certain areas, such as elves with luck., and Dwarves with defending.

Elves: I liked the suggestion of the luck perk being increased to a potential of +10. Although I do wonder how they are gonna achieve that...

- Expert Luck + 3
- Clover + 1
- Daughter of Sylvanna + 2
My knowledge is limited xD

Demons: Fine as it is, although it could also boost the number of troops perhaps

Dark Elves: What of "All destructive spells damage cast by hero is increased by 100%" ? Would seem to fit a lot more with their racial AND would make destructive magic a lot more potent even in end game.

Humans: Increase the amount of trainable units per week from 20 to 50 ?

Wizards: Fine as it is, although it makes any magic schools learned practicly useless, except for the abilities that come with it.

Or what about this: Full Wizard's army is 100% magic proof. Ok overpowered against factions like Dungeon and Necro...

Undead: Just fine as it is.

Dwarves: I was gonna suggest "All damage dealt to dwarven army is decreased by half"... But that's exactly the same as what it is right now.

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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted September 23, 2007 04:03 PM

Quote:

- Expert Luck + 3
- Clover + 1
- Daughter of Sylvanna + 2
My knowledge is limited xD

There is the Golden Horsehoe +2, Lion Crown +2 Luck and Moral, Tarot Card Deck+1 + Adventure building +1 or fountain +3 and you can usually get
3(from expert)+1(from adventure thingy)+1 (from Artifacts)+3 (from the ultimate bonus) so in the end you would have about 7(standard) to 10(with Lion Crown and Golen Horsehoe)

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 23, 2007 04:45 PM

How about this replacement for Unstoppable Charge?

Flanking (or Battle Tactics, might also be a good name)
The Knight is able to field his units with advanced tactics, exploiting the weaknesses of attacking enemies whenever they present themselves. Whenever a Haven unit under the Knights' control retaliates, all other Haven units under the Knights' control that can attack the offender (in range or melee) will also retaliate against it, without losing their own standard retaliation.

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