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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Necro Leadership change proposal
Thread: Necro Leadership change proposal This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
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Adventuring Hero
*cookie magic*
posted October 02, 2007 03:56 PM

Necro Leadership change proposal

The Orc skills for Dark, Light, Summoning, and Destructive changed to 'Shatter' them. Since Necro doesn't need Morale why dun we change it to 'Shatter' Leadership or something.....

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Lord_Evil
Lord_Evil


Famous Hero
Evil lolcat
posted October 02, 2007 04:25 PM
Edited by Lord_Evil at 16:26, 02 Oct 2007.

Good point! but you know what is more stupid thet they gived the necromancer the abilitie Empathy wich they dont need becase thyre units are undead and dont have moral
I hope thet they will cheinge this skill and abilitie until TotE is relise

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted October 02, 2007 04:33 PM

TotE gone gold so...

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Visz
Visz


Adventuring Hero
posted October 02, 2007 04:43 PM

They can change it in patches!

But the orcs can't use magic at all.. But the necro hero's can use troops of other factions, and need leadership for them... So there is a little use of it. Empathy is totally useless

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kermit
kermit


Known Hero
Soul hunter
posted October 02, 2007 04:46 PM

Interesting idea, it could also be extended to luck.

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Nirual
Nirual


Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
posted October 02, 2007 08:03 PM

Luck affects undead troops, too.

The deal with Leadership is that a necromancer picking it won't do that to use foreign creatures, but to convert joiners with Herald of Death. That's what I'd do, anyway. Not that I ever get joining offers from anything other than low tier undeads.
____________
In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 02, 2007 09:24 PM

Quote:
Luck affects undead troops, too.

The deal with Leadership is that a necromancer picking it won't do that to use foreign creatures, but to convert joiners with Herald of Death. That's what I'd do, anyway. Not that I ever get joining offers from anything other than low tier undeads.


Yes, that's probably been the philosophy from the developers - but let's be real, just HOW many offers exactly do you get during a game, and how does that ever come close to justifying those potential 4 skill points you'll have to put into having this ability? [Basic, Advanced Leadership, Diplomacy + Herald of Death]

By making Leadership into some sort of Anti-Leadership "Despair" skill, that would justify the skill point put into this skill. And if that makes Herald of Death, make it proportional to Hero level like the Markal ability.
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What will happen now?

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ethereal
ethereal

Tavern Dweller
Ethereal Knight
posted October 02, 2007 10:45 PM

I must say I was quite... shocked when I first saw the "Leadership" skill available to the Necromancer. I guess I'll compare all Heroes games starting with 4 with my personal favourite, H3. In this case, not being able to get the Leadership skill at all with the Necromancer (H3) made more sense. I also don't see how it "fits" with the Necromancy philosophy. I mean, with all other factions, some leadership skills are a must for a hero (even with the Inferno, although free will and will are probably not very common in Hell ) to portray a... well, a Hero leading! But with the necromancers, the ideea is supposed to be that the troops are controled through Necromancy... Thus, the hero does not need to have any leadership skills whatsoever.

Now, although I haven't played the ToE Demo, I have already got Aurelian's Skillwheel (obviously ) and I immeadiately came across the "Shatter Magic" skills. A "Despair" (like Alcibiades said) or "Fear" or something skill would sound perfect to the necromancers. And would differentiate the Necropolis from the other factions, pretty much like the "Shatter" skills differentiate the Orcs from the others. This Despair (Alcibiades again) or "Something other than Leadership" skill () could have the reverse effect, like Morale -1/-2/-3. Or Luck for that matter, since the Banshee Howl and Howl of Terror already take care of the enemy's morale ...

Anyway, I hope they change it. And maybe get rid of the Empathy skill... It also makes no sense, since the Undead are not supposed to have that many feelings to be empathetic with.

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Adventuring Hero
*cookie magic*
posted October 02, 2007 11:28 PM

yes yes thank you for agreeing with me guys

lol


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blink
blink


Adventuring Hero
posted October 03, 2007 01:28 AM
Edited by blink at 01:29, 03 Oct 2007.

I think that empathy for necromancers goes beyond simply having no purpose and is actually likely to serve as a penalty for necromancers.  Remember, not only does the hero shift 10% forward when a creature gets positive morale, but the hero shifts 10% BACKWARD when a creature gets negative morale.  Now if you're putting creatures from other factions in the necromancer's army, which type of morale effect are you more likely to see?

This skill sort of has the ability to act as a Fizbin of misfortune.  And on that note, what is the point of including the negative side effect of the skill?  No other skill comes with possible penalties, it's just empathy.  I mean, if they're going to have this penalty, why can't war machines and golems get negative morale with artificial glory?

Edit:  apparently I had misspelled "shifts" because it had appeared as "****s" when I hit submit.  Heh heh, whoops.

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phoenixreborn
phoenixreborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted October 03, 2007 06:03 AM

While I have been arguing that empathy is useless for the necromancer let's be real here.  In order to get it you must have advanced or expert leadership.  This is going to offset the negative morale penalty for having troops of a different alignment.  Add in that morale numbers can go above 5 now.  There are plenty of map buildings that give morale.

Having said all that it's still pretty lame that leadership doesn't work the way alcibiades is suggesting, by reducing enemy morale.  I would love that.  Others have suggested it before like Alamer at CH.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 03, 2007 08:36 AM

They could exchange Empathy with a negative counterpart called "Malice" or whatever: Every time an enemy creature sufferes a negative Morale effect, the Hero moves 10 % in positive direction on the Initiative scale. However, if an enemy creature suffers a positive Morale effect, the effect will be the opposite.

To reply to the above, I think the condition in Empathy is ok - first of all, it's not going to happen very often - although Sorrow and new Necropolis will deffinitely make you think twice before choosing that path, which I think is nice - and Empathy is an extremely powerful ability. Played a map ones for fun where I persued this ability (the Dwarven one in HoF called Iron Throne, my build was Leadership, Enlightenment, Sorcery, Destructive), and I tell you, I was spanning those Ice Bolts all over the place. Pretty wicked.
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What will happen now?

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Nirual
Nirual


Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
posted October 03, 2007 01:06 PM

I like that idea. After all, it has a strong synergy with Banshee Howl and other morale reducing necromancer elements.

I wouldn't even mind it becoming a requirement for Howl of Terror, actually.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.

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George
George


Adventuring Hero
Dragon Lord
posted October 03, 2007 01:51 PM

Quote:
They could exchange Empathy with a negative counterpart called "Malice" or whatever: Every time an enemy creature sufferes a negative Morale effect, the Hero moves 10 % in positive direction on the Initiative scale. However, if an enemy creature suffers a positive Morale effect, the effect will be the opposite.



That would be great !
____________

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kermit
kermit


Known Hero
Soul hunter
posted October 03, 2007 02:10 PM

Quote:
Quote:
They could exchange Empathy with a negative counterpart called "Malice" or whatever: Every time an enemy creature sufferes a negative Morale effect, the Hero moves 10 % in positive direction on the Initiative scale. However, if an enemy creature suffers a positive Morale effect, the effect will be the opposite.



That would be great !


That wouldn't be too productive, it would amplify the effect of morale on troops too much. With this feature an already high morale army would be even more effective, eventually preventing the necromancer from acting at all... whereas a low morale army (not that frequent), would be totally helpless in front of a necromancer.

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Visz
Visz


Adventuring Hero
posted October 03, 2007 02:40 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
They could exchange Empathy with a negative counterpart called "Malice" or whatever: Every time an enemy creature sufferes a negative Morale effect, the Hero moves 10 % in positive direction on the Initiative scale. However, if an enemy creature suffers a positive Morale effect, the effect will be the opposite.



That would be great !


That wouldn't be too productive, it would amplify the effect of morale on troops too much. With this feature an already high morale army would be even more effective, eventually preventing the necromancer from acting at all... whereas a low morale army (not that frequent), would be totally helpless in front of a necromancer.


That's right.. I think it's better to replace Empathy with divide guidance or something like that.

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elmek
elmek


Adventuring Hero
posted October 03, 2007 03:27 PM

Casting "divide guidance" on the undead? Come on...

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Nirual
Nirual


Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
posted October 03, 2007 05:35 PM
Edited by Nirual at 17:38, 03 Oct 2007.

Quote:

That wouldn't be too productive, it would amplify the effect of morale on troops too much. With this feature an already high morale army would be even more effective, eventually preventing the necromancer from acting at all... whereas a low morale army (not that frequent), would be totally helpless in front of a necromancer.



With Expert Anti-Leadership, Banshee Howl and Banshee, you could already reduce the morale by 5. And that's just the easy ways. Sorrow Strike, Sorrow, Weakening Aura, Deidres specialty, the set bonus and the cloak artifact are plenty more to counter heroes that stacked up on morale beyond the cap. Not to mention the Ultimate.
And there are precious few countermeasures. Bravery only affects a few creatures, and only Sorrow can be dispelled. Knights can have Benediction, but thats just one point of morale with no ways to improve it other than Paragon Knight, which, for some reason, is a campaign hero speciality.

Sure, there is a risk, but the same can be said for Empathy.

As for Divine Guidance, sure, it would be a better pick instead of Empathy for a Necromancer. The name sound weird for a Necromancer, but with the TotE change, its also available for Barbarians, which are very different from Knights too...
but it still won't change the fact that the basic skill is pretty useless for necromancers.
____________
In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.

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siinn
siinn


Adventuring Hero
posted October 03, 2007 06:44 PM

I agree with you guys: leadership is pretty useless for necro (what kind of necro lord are you if you're willing to use living armies??? buaaahhhhh life is such a disgusting thing)

i do not ever talk about the empaty bug because I really believe it's just a bug... hein nival hein c'est un blague hein les copain?


BUT I think that changing leadership bonus to a identical malus would be a bit too strong at the end. necro have plenty of solutions to decrease moral (including new speel sorrow) and they don't need another racial capacity to improve their moral reduction power.
what do necro needs?
dark energy!

thus IMO leadership should be changed into some "dark leadership" thing with the rules that follows:

novice: +5% DE per week
pratice: +10% DE per week
expert: +15% DE per week


non? si hein avouez!

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HartZa
HartZa


Known Hero
watchout graveyards!
posted October 03, 2007 09:02 PM

Quote:
I agree with you guys: leadership is pretty useless for necro (what kind of necro lord are you if you're willing to use living armies??? buaaahhhhh life is such a disgusting thing)

i do not ever talk about the empaty bug because I really believe it's just a bug... hein nival hein c'est un blague hein les copain?


BUT I think that changing leadership bonus to a identical malus would be a bit too strong at the end. necro have plenty of solutions to decrease moral (including new speel sorrow) and they don't need another racial capacity to improve their moral reduction power.
what do necro needs?
dark energy!

thus IMO leadership should be changed into some "dark leadership" thing with the rules that follows:

novice: +5% DE per week
pratice: +10% DE per week
expert: +15% DE per week


non? si hein avouez!


Adding dark energy pool wouldŽnt be to bad skill. Actually quite good. But I still think that reducing enemy morale is better. Vice versa effects on emphathy sounds ok also but it would be risky or imba. Since you can choose that do you want learn it or not. If you have things like ring of broken will, cloak of the shadows, sorrow, banshees and bansheeŽs howl it is MUST skill then. But if you donŽt have enough things to reduce enemy morale you can just skip it.

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